Got drape of shame from the +2 I did and a 298 weapon from the weekly box. Got IQD from the last dungeon but I think it’s trash now. Went up almost 10 ilevels doing those 4 dungeons on my Druid. Not bad I guess. Lol
I usually ignore them. What i watch for is the number of deaths. If my party has no wipe and with few deaths, more likely we would be able to time it.
Major M+ failure of lowbie people is the Number of Deaths.
I usually have no death or have the least death and has the least failure damage. That’s my main contribution for completing M+ on PuGs aside from carrying low DPS people. Even on Lower and Upper Kara, i am really improving as last week was a disaster. Hope i would get better gear to be able to carry as much people on PuGs.
Yeah, it’s great.
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M+ sucks and it attracts the wrong types of people to the game.
Time pressure, esport, degenerate gameplay doesn’t belong in a RPG and I don’t understand why they leave the story stuff in M+ dungeons when it clearly doesn’t fit.
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if your group is playing remotely well you will time at least 15s without even thinking about the timer
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Have you considered getting good?
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Well define equal, because the “equal” i’m always been given is to make the suggestion significantly worse to play because… they think the suggestion will take their M+ away for some reason, when both can co-exist. If their fine with Raids existing, then their fine with this.
Challenging yes, but fun to play, no.
In the addition, this engine isn’t built for platforming, unlike GW2.
It being fun, is half of the reason why i do these. There’s a reason why there’s hardly any vision achievements under my belt, because it’s just not fun to go and it’s just more frustrating. You can keep the rewards.
How many people you think are going to play if the reward is lowered? This is why i question whenever somebody says “As along the rewards match up or be lowered” here, especially as you said here, that reward/challenge is just as important as fun. If i do a challenging (By the way, don’t think i didn’t see the implication you’re setting up here, untimed doesn’t mean it’s automatically easier, let’s just squash this misconception right now, because it’s never been proven to be objective) untimed dungeons, and i get loot from a 2+ that is just on the same level as heroic dungeons, i’m not going to use it as much.
If however, you’re saying “It needs to be 1 or 2 levels below M+” like a 2+ Untimed is equal to a M0, UN5+ to M3+, and etc… i mean guess that works, i don’t think people will mind too much over a little sacrifice like that. 
…Why it has to be different every time you run it exactly?
Yes, my suggestions will put these objects in different places, much like how Torghast does them, but it’s not going to be RNG, on top of RNG, on top of RNG, on top of RNG, on top of RNG with a side order of RNG and a swig of RNG to finish it off, diffrent everytime you run it. Some staticity is fine.
I mean bosses on average, aren’t this dynamic everytime you run a dungeon, like “Oh it’s a hogger boss this time, but he shoots fireballs, and summons deathwing, and making us fly in dragons like in the oculus, except all our dragons can only fire sheep out of their mouths, and we have to learn the hokey pokey”. Or what, were going to say “Oh no, it’s good that the bosses are static, because memorization and–” if that’s the case, why not puzzles then, because isn’t that also half of it’s point as well?..
Being honest with you, given how Torghast turned out, given how they used dynamism there, it’s not always going to be a good thing or a thing that makes challenging/fun stuff. Especially when it goes wrong like it did where it placed a chest on a ledge that i’m unable to get to until i’ve spent, no joke, 40 minutes with my engineering gadgets. What about to somebody who doesn’t have that? That floor is un-100% able which that will dip into their score if their looking for a flawless or 4 star run.
Why exactly you’re in this mindset of either extreme of “Either it needs to be super duper hard or it will just be easier!” instead of thinking this with nuance?
…Where i’ve suggested a easier mode?.. I’ve said “challenging untimed dungeons”. Not easier dungeons… Those two things are not the same things.
…Okay? … A minority of people will always try to pick the best and efficient option. I still don’t see the problem here?
Action speaks louder than words. You may have the best excuses in the world, like that guy saying he didn’t have time (ironic) or you didn’t like it, but the fact of the matter is, you didn’t do it. Why spend dev time coming up with an extra path for dungeon progression when you haven’t done those already offered to you, hard mode mechagon and tazavesh.
M+, on the other hand, probably keeps the most subs out of all the other game modes.
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This is what actually makes me think the opposite. Im not asking how popular it is, I am asking if YOU are having FUN with it.
If you can’t casually beat the timer on a 2 without paying attention to it, a 2 is probably the correct content for your skill level.
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The timer bothers me less than 30-40 minutes of nonstop popping fireballs, spamming heals on grievous or busting until I’m OOM, interrupting my casting for quaking, or dodging volcanoes.
While I’m not a big fan of Fated raids, at least the affix is different for each boss and we don’t have to deal with them on trash.
You even answered your own question with the quote from before.
Equal as in roughly the same level of difficulty to complete.
You keep trying to use raids, but the important encounters in raids are boss fights and they’re timed. Enraged timers are there specifically because having unlimited time to do the encounter makes it easier.
Exactly, so why would you suggest that as something that can be used to make untimed modes challenging? Who wants to do that?
Half the reason. What’s the other half? For most folks that’s gonna be the rewards, so it’s important that reward structures are in line with other content.
Well there’s a lot of threads asking for untimed modes, are you saying they still wouldn’t play it?
But again, I’m totally fine with the rewards being equal if the challenge is.
Everything in wow PvE is easier untimed than timed. I’m not saying something couldn’t be added that’s the same, but so far nobody in any of these threads has suggested anything that would be.
It should be wherever the challenge equals out. So if that’s 2t - 0ut or 5t - 2ut etc. That’s fine.
Because if you can learn the tricks in low levels they’ll be the same at high ones. Constant changes in those would help you get the increasing difficulty that would make your system work.
No, because they’re getting the added difficulty from the timer.
I mean, it should go without saying that Blizz shouldn’t have broken stuff. You can’t use these things as examples of why the system doesn’t work just like you can’t use poor tuning in grimrail.
We’re talking about a scaling difficulty system. The increases in both modes should be similar if the rewards are going to be similar. Super duper hard timed should be the same as super duper hard untimed. Easy timed should be the same as easy untimed. Super duper hard timed can’t be the same as medium untimed.
All of your suggestions have been easier.
Blizz does though. They will consider that even if you don’t care.
What I don’t get is why Mythic+ players are so insistent that there not be any other type of 5 man Dungeon experience?
Yeah, that’s not happening.
It happens in every single topic about 5 man Dungeons.
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You just need to check how many goes past 15, which is totally pointless as the gear doesn’t get any better, to know they have fun in it.
Which is why i’m calling (a subset of) M+ who thinks untimed challenging dungeons are a threat to them despite the fact it will not effect them, or them thinking untimed = easier, when that’s not even the case for something like raids.
…And yet when i do that, the response is always “I didn’t say that” or something else to the effect, as if they want me to focus on what they said and not their actions…
You considering my reasons and arguments as “excuses” is not my problem. 
I wasn’t the one who said “ignore the timer” as if it’s a valid suggestion for somebody suggesting challenging untimed dungeons. If it’s an issue to you for me calling out those people who don’t know what their even saying, maybe it’s best to not say silly things like that.
For somebody who said “Action speaks louder then words”, you sure are confusing M+ or M0 as if their the same thing as wanting an challenging untimed dungeon to progress though, but it’s not.
You don’t know that because there’s no official numbers to pull from anyways. Again, for somebody who said “actions speak louder then words”, you’re kind of lying to me with this while pretending you know the answers here.
Enraged timer ≠ Overall timer.
I use raids to point out the inconsistency of the “untimed is easier” argument, as in their deliberately arguing that if the dungeon doesn’t have an overall timer, it would be automaticaly easier and thus everybody would be waiting for lust/CD’s every single time on a mob. When that seldom happens in a raid and it still retains it’s difficulty. Therefore not a fact.
Why you purposely misread that? You said that “platform games are challenging in wow because of the old engine”, and i responded by essentially saying “This engine wasn’t built for platforming”. Where did leap of logic come from where it’s comparable to what suggestions i was previously talking about here?
Rewards.
Both have to work together imo. And before you say it, i don’t mean “lower the rewards”, i mean reward for the effort (yes, i know it’s hard for you to believe it, but you still have to put in effort to get things, even if to you it’s easy) appropriate for it. Like a UN+ 5 rewarding you M+ 3.
What are you talking about?
If they asking for it, obviously their going to play it, because why else ask for it?
I mean that’s like asking that same question for somebody who want cosmetics. “Are you saying that wouldn’t wear it?”…
Spoken like somebody who never did difficult PvE content. This is the same exact argument that comes from elitist PvPers. “Oh my god, i’m so good in PvP! PvE is bad because it so EZ…”.
…Not to be trite and quote the previous responder but…
…Sounds more to me you haven’t been either paying attention or assumed they all want an easy mode and stopped there without looking any further. PvE having harder modes isn’t something that’s going to jolt me to a point where i want them removed or stopped entirely. If Blizzard wants to put another visions and if i don’t play it, that’s my loss then.
Alright, so that’s not too bad. We understand both of what or where the threshold is for the both of us then.
I mean it works right out of the box anyways. Especially since it plays on repetition and learning to get better at it as time goes on. Much like Boss mechanics.
Adding an overall timer does not give them new abilities, or movesets.
Well “unpolished” would be the better word for my situation back in 2021.
Not sure why you’re bringing up Grimrail, because my point that has limits and polishing to deter unpolished weird stuff like in Torghast. It’s one example of where some level of staticisty benefits. It’s a general point that applies to all aspects that uses dynamism.
And Super duper hard untimed can’t be the same as medium timed. This goes both ways.
…What one considers easy is subjective.
Okay and? Why should i be beholden to what the dev’s issue is if i’m making a suggestion to them? 
Yes, they ultimately decide what goes into or out of a game and if i don’t like it or if they don’t accept it, fine. But as far i’m concerned, it’s not something i need to worry about. Let alone anyways, considering almost all issues they have are just money related, i.e, just trying to squeeze for a quick cost cutting almighty dollar at the expense of cents.
/COUGH COUGH
HELLO DEVIL IMMORAL. 
I never implied that I thought you wanted easier. I said when an opportunity arose that was a higher challenge while remaining untimed, you guys didn’t do it, even though it gave better gear and a mount. You can come up with however many excuses you want, if you don’t do the content you’re asking for, why should they put development time on it?
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It’s not though.
You can say it’s not all you want.
It happens in every thread, including this one.