Judgement of the Crusader and the Philosophy of Vanilla is Vanilla

In the shady back alleys of Classic discussion elsewhere, I have found a number of pallies engaged in a vehement debate over a proposition that captured my attention, which I will summarize as the following:

In Vanilla, multiple Judgement of the Crusader debuffs could be visible and active on the same target provided that each debuff:

  • originated from a different caster
  • was a unique rank

Ergo, a raid containing at least six paladins could have up to six Judgement of the Crusader debuffs all visible and active on a boss, because there are six ranks of Seal of the Crusader. Presumably, had each paladin used talents and equip bonuses to increase the effect of Judgement of the Crusader, this raid could get in the neighborhood of each Holy attack against the target is increased by up to ~800.

I will admit I am very intrigued by this issue in particular, as I am interested in raiding as a paladin in Classic. I will not take a stand on either side of the debate, though, because even though I did play a great deal during Vanilla, I cannot remember if I ever even tried this, let alone with one of the least popular Judgements for raiding. You may have your own position and/or evidence regarding this particular issue, which you are invited to share here. But doing so is a little beside the point as I reach the first thrust in purpose for this topic, namely:

Only Blizzard can know.

Most of the arguments I have seen regarding this issue have centered around one or more of the following:

  • appeals to authority or personal incredulity from fierce forum-lurking neckbeards
  • screenshots and/or videos that are (probably) from Vanilla, but that don’t really prove anything
  • wild, tortured attempts to divine more meaning from early patch notes than any reasonable person would
  • “facts and figures” from those places that have cause to make the best educated guesses they can to suit their purposes, but are obviously not original sources and given the nature of their activities, shall not be named (if you don’t know what I’m talking about, then just keep on reading, you good wholesome person)

If someone reading this at Blizzard is able to fire up the rebuilt 1.12 client you folks have been using for the sake of comparison and run a quick test on this, I would love to hear the answer. But if the answer is what I suspect it might be, i.e. holy crap this does actually work in real 1.12, then maybe I shouldn’t hear it because of the primary purpose of this topic:

For the purposes of Classic, Vanilla is both the set of all possible states and actions within the official 1.12 server and client, and the prevailing class and faction balance during 1.12 (from Aug. 22, 2006 to December 5, 2006). But what would Blizzard do if/when these majorly conflict?

To use our above example, I can say with reasonable certainty that stacking six Judgement of the Crusader debuffs on a raid boss in Vanilla was “not a thing”. If that was due to the fact that it simply doesn’t work in real 1.12, then there’s not much else to say. But, give this idea the benefit of the doubt for a moment and assume that it was permitted, but the players didn’t do it out of simple ignorance. What would happen then?

At least a portion of the community is going to try it based on the debate already happening concerning it. They will discover that it’s a thing (if it is). And then both class and faction balance are threatened, potentially dramatically. If that’s so, what’s the right thing for Blizzard to do?

Let it stand just as it does (hypothetically) in the 1.12 client and server because Vanilla is Vanilla?

Or, disallow it because it threatens class and faction balance as they were at the time because Vanilla is Vanilla?

If the latter, would Blizzard be forthcoming with us that they were making the change and why?

If it’s in the 1.12 client, it should be in Classic.

If our philosophy is that we shouldn’t do class balance because it’s not our place to try to “fix” things, then that shouldn’t stop applying just because we find something kind of broken that not many knew about in 2006.

Well geared Fury Warriors in 1.12 already throw the idea of class balance out the window anyway.

That said it never even occurred to me to try this in Vanilla, so I would like to hear from Blizzard about what the answer actually is.

I’m going to laugh my *** off if Ret goes from “worst” DPS to one of the best because of this.

Can try it out on a Pserver to get some rough DPS numbers, see if it’s even worth the effort of trying.

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If I remember right from people who have tried it on private servers, it actually helps Smite Priests more than it does Ret Paladins since a Smite Priest’s damage is 100% Holy.

Which I’ve always wanted a holy caster spec that is damage focused =P

So the real question become if Smite Priests buffed in this fashion do more DPS than standard Ignite Mages.

Also, Ret has a Holy damage increase Aura. 10% iirc

Ignite Mage is a weird thing for DPS because it intakes the DPS of multiple Mages.

Though I imagine a 6 JotC Smite Priest could at least push Warlock DPS. Smite actually does really good DPS, it’s more of a mana issue than anything else.

and yeah, if Smite Priest became a viable thing then you’d see Ret Paladins wanted for Sanctity Aura.

And yes, I was the one who started all of this back on Nost and yes our top DPS by far was our Smite Priest who was getting like 3k Smite hits and 4.5k crits :slight_smile:




This is the type of stuff I hope blizzard doesn’t see as a bug and try to “fix”. Assuming it did work like that in the original game.

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I don’t see how this could ever, under any circumstances, be considered a bug. Different rank spells were a part of the game, as was casting different ranks to get varying results of the same spell. If rank stacking debuffs is a bug, than so is healers using different rank heals to conserve mana.


It may actually be possible in actual Classic and here is why.

Before 1.7 when hunters got “Changed” if you spec’d into Spirit bond (it was a spell at that time, not passive pet activated)

Any way, you were before 1.7 able to use multiple ranks; I think, I remember there being 3 ranks…

Any way you could stack them. It effectively made us gods because our pet literally healed us with each and every attack.

This is the primary impetus for why hunter pet attack speed being “high” was truly important because that value per attack was static, meaning faster attacks = more healing.

All that changed after 1.7 for us, but as I understand it paladin debuffs only got minor tweaks and adjustments.

After reading the tool tips for your seals / judgements; it’s kinda obvious that different ranks of the same spell could be exacted on a target by multiple paladin.

Interesting because that would massively increase paladin damage… Seal of Righteousness looks like it would be BAR-NONE the king based on the quick hair top calculator math…

With any luck this is the interaction you guys have, but who knows… I know one thing; Blizzard will get the spell interactions correct because they have a REAL working 1.12 server and client to fact check with.

lmao paladins are some of the funniest players in classic, especially killerduki and theloras.

Totally unintentional type of being funny though.


for reference:

#7Oct 13 2005 at 12:31 PMRating: Decent
961 posts
Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn’t have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.

-Judgement of the Crusader: It is no longer possible to have icons for two different ranks of Judgment of the Crusader appear at the same time when judged by multiple Paladins.


don’t say his name, you’ll summo - OH MY GOD, ALREADY?


Dude, it’s actually kinda impressive yes no? I am no joke laughing my rear off right now…

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I swear I would too. It would be the most ‘Classic’ thing ever for the … ‘mocked laughing stock of dps’ to get theorycrafted into the “Every raid must have at least 8 Rets” masterclass of the universe.

Please let this happen. I don’t even play a pally and I want to see this.


Here’s the thing… There were 3 paladins on my server back in actual Vanilla who were flat out the most dangerous thing on the battle field.

If you got inside of their repentance radius it was GG buddy because you were gonna get 2 or 3 shot…

I have no idea how they actually did it, but I am telling you they were the most destructive high burst class in game. They made geared to the teeth warriors, rogues and mages look like a sad little joke.

And before you can ask the question, NO they were not Reckoning, they had repentance.

pre or post patch 1.9 though?

repentance was originally the 31 point PROT talent and most Reck Bomb Paladins grabbed it

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End of Vanilla was when they were at the peak of their lethality. I remember being in Sillithus shortly after the gate opening and it was before 1.10 for sure, and watching the devastation and thinking dear God, that’s broken.

Okay, OP here. I mained a Vanilla pally. I totally get the pally pride. I have it too. Theory-crafting stacking JotC is fun, especially bringing the priests into it. And I did welcome such talk.

But, what is of greater concern to me is the principles involved with prioritizing what was possible vs. what was done when one considers that Blizzard is attempting to deliver an authentic experience. Surely, any rational observer can see that there is merit to both sides of that argument. I would like to know what side Blizzard would take and why. (Maybe it’s already been said?)


Love all the

Could do with a little more

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