Do you need me to go back and quote the multiple times that you have said that you don’t have any of those problems in your guild “because” you use GDKP?
What the rest of us are telling you is that we don’t have those problems in our guild because we don’t allow toxic members to join/stay in the guild, let alone continue to raid. GDKP is simply not necessary to prevent those problems.
I’m not in any way suggesting that everything you are saying is about internal guild runs. I’m just addressing that aspect because the idea that GDKP is needed in internal guild runs is the most outrageous of the claims you have made. Now that this has become clear, you no longer want to defend the necessity of GDKP for internal guild runs. That’s fine with me. We can stop talking about GDKP in the context of guild runs, but that will require you to concede the point that it isn’t necessary in those situations and so far you have not demonstrated the social and intellectual maturity to concede a point once it has become impossible to defend. Before you play the victim again and accuse me of attacking you, you should no that I would love to be wrong and for you to show me that I am.
Odd, I can hop on during normal hours and see very few GDKP postings on my realm. I see a much larger amount of SR or MS>OS runs than I do GDKP. See how anecdotes and definite statements work?
Unless you can drop some actual numbers or something less anecdotal than, “I said so” you shouldn’t make nebulous claims about entire populations.
Blizz found enough reason to ban this, even with their own staff admittedly participating in the system, due to it’s link to RMT. Which is undeniable. I don’t even dislike GDKP, I did one once, didn’t like having to deal with “I have more money I win” in a video game, so I moved on from something that didn’t affect me. Just as this change does not effect me.
They aren’t though. SRs have a number of problems that limit them.
GDKP has almost no weaknesses other than “technically this is a vehicle for RMT” which is not nearly as big of a flaw as the Andies made it out to be. Oh well.
Anyways, @ OP, I have concocted the perfect solution to your problems.
I didn’t say this is the only way to stop players from being toxic. Read more carefully. What I said is that when toxic players are toxic, GDKP eliminates 10 of the ways they can be toxic. You’re advocating for a reaction to the toxic behavior that has already taken place (for example, to gkick them). I also gkick them, but the difference is I didn’t have the item stolen from my team beforehand. Do you understand? One is prevention, one is response.
I never said this, you did. I have a decent group of players to play with.
And loot systems like MS>OS enable them.
You’re admitting that you must first experience the toxic behavior and remove the player. I don’t have to have that experience in the first place, at least not with the 10 scenarios I outlined.
BOP items obtained in raids are generally the best possible gear for most slots.
That’s the difference. Allowing people to purchase decent gear that will allow them to perform adequately in raids =/= allowing them to purchase the most powerful items for their class at end game.
Do you honestly not see the difference there or are you just making bad-faith arguments?
Plenty of BoEs are BIS. BoEs are absolutely RMT’d like crazy. No one in good faith sells an item that has 2 stamina more than a green for 75g, you know you are getting RMT’d money if you sell BoEs for big $$$.
The only difference is that people pretend that if GDKP didn’t exist they wouldn’t be stuck in 5/7 jail. That’s literally it. But newsflash bub, if GDKPs go away chadgar is still not going to invite you.
It’s not just the text, it’s how one can be traded on the AH and the other cannot.
What was acknowledged was that you can only reach the highest level of player power with BoP raid items, not wih BoE items, which makes gold more valuable and RMT more attractive when you can use it to acquire said BoP items.
As I mentioned before, it can’ be solved, but it can be made much less worthwhile and its impact can be greatly lowered by making sure the most powerful items are BoP items that can’ be traded.
Monetizing BoP raid items offer the unique issue of allowing players to reach the highest level of player power with gold. You can’t do that with the AH. This makes the game truly p2w. You keep ignoring this.
If you can’t see the opportunity for bias here and the inevitability that a player will feel wronged by the choice then we have nothing more to debate.
Again, only a few of these are targeting guilds. Namely the loot council ones (2 and 3).
Also, “A good guild would not allow this” does not prevent it from happening. Have you ever invited a new recruit? How do you know if it is a problem until it occurs? To act like everyone you ever meet in game is a saint is being disingenuous.
I said I don’t have any of these problems in my pugs or my guild raids because GDKP makes them impossible. You’ve already admitted you do have them occasionally and then you remove the player. Cool. In a GDKP you are immune to them in the first place.
I agree, but the problem is the part where you say they don’t join/stay. That means you do have the problem because you don’t actually know everyone until you have experienced playing with them.
Never made that claim, not once. And I don’t believe it either. I run it as an exception to the rule because I personally don’t like loot council, even if I’m in charge of it.
You are the one that is forcing me to come back to the point over and over again that I’m not only talking about guild runs and that only a few of the items on the list apply to guilds. You are cherry picking a statement about one thing (GDKP generally) and applying it to another (guild runs). I’ve never said I think it is needed for a guild run. All I said is that I prefer it over loot council because of biases that creep into loot councils.
Maybe you should read the OP man, tired of explaining it over and over to the same person and you just keep coming back with the same posts.
And what everyone else is telling you is that avoiding toxic players in the first place is far easier than you make out and making an effort to build a solid community of good people to play with will make the problem so rare as to not require a solution.
Except those circumstances should be so rare that taking steps to prevent them, particularly steps as problematic as GDKP, should be totally unnecessary. Again, in 20 years of playing the game, I can count on one hand the number of times someone in a guild did something that heinous. Based on the posts of others in this thread, it appears my experience in that regard is far from unique.
You didn’t say it directly, but it is the explicit implication of the things you have said. The fact that you don’t realize the full spectrum of what your comments communicate is a you problem.
Then you shouldn’t encounter any of the problems you complained about except on exceedingly rare occasions and I don’t see the problem.
No, loot systems like MS>OS expose them. Why would you want to associate and play with someone who would be toxic BUT FOR the existence of GDKP loot rules? That’s still a toxic person who isn’t fun to play with. You’ve just slightly mitigated the damage they do to your community.
Yes, people should be given a chance and only punished once they’ve shown themselves to be toxic.
You don’t seem to understand that there is always a trade-off with steps taken to prevent bad behavior. GDKP creates a ton of problems, which (to your credit) you have admitted. The question is whether the problems you outline are common enough to justify replacing them with the problems created by GDKP. There are multiple people in this thread who are telling you that without GDKP, those problems are so exceedingly rare that it doesn’t make sense to exchange those very rare occurrences for the certain problems that GDKP creates.
This is a very objective system. I ask again, where is the bias in this? If the players feel wronged they can just inspect the other player and see that it is indeed an objectively better upgrade for them, or that they do indeed have a higher attendance. Roll are not biased either. “we have nothing more to debate”? More like, you can’t justify your assumptions.
In the vast majority of the time, everyone knew who would get the item even before the council announced the decision, and not because “oh, this player is the council’s fav” but because they can see in the forums who has wishlisted the same item as them and what item they currently have equipped.
I hear what you are saying that guilds are not the end-all solution to every problem, but GDKPS are not either (and OP has said as much). I am simply trying to compare them as two separate solutions to the problem. Yes, you won’t know right away if you are in a good guild or not, but that is part of the social aspect of any game- you might find out you are playing with bad actors only after something bad has happened. Unfortunately that’s true in any online game. Sure, the stakes are higher here (a crappy guild taking advantage of you will cost you more time on WoW than other games in general), but I still think it’s a problem the player can solve by jumping around a few guilds until they get it right. It doesn’t have to take very long either, I always keep up with former guildies when they go off to join other guilds and I always ask how it is there, and I’ve gotten plenty of GInvites as a result.
Sounds like someone thought they could forever buy their way to glory. If you have time to farm enough gold to buy items in a raid by outbidding people, there is absolutely no reason you don’t have time to farm a raid for items with a solid group of trusted friends. Read the above carefully before you respond. All the issues you addressed are BS when you are in a good guild with good people.
I’ve literally never seen any BOE that expensive on the AH during Phase 1. That’s partially because there simply aren’t BOEs powerful enough to sell at that price right now.
I have a raid spot in every single lock out and could even get raid spots for alts if I wanted to. That’s because I am in an excellent guild. The only negative effects I expect to be diminished by the removal of GDKP are economic in nature.
If you want to make the case that GDKP is unpopular on era and wotlk, good luck. I think your anecdote is the exception though. Even the GDKP haters point it out as “near 100%” and “impossible to find a group that isn’t GDKP”
Thank you. I wish the devs were as rational as you.
