Ideal, but fair depictment of Races- Round 1, Night Elves

Lore Story Forum
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Loosely based on posts like this:

Or

And some of Droite’s posts regarding the matter that i’m too lazy to look up.

We know that most (if not all) narratives depicting the races on this Universe’s setting are less than ideal. They’re usually done by small bite of lore via small stories, obscure Anime-type Comics and sprinkled on the main books as flavor or fluff. Other than complaining or throwing at each other’s necks, there’s no much we can do about it though. We do not make the story.

Or do we?

I would like to propose a thought experiment - this Rounds of theads i intent to start - about “Ideal, but fair” depictment of Races. I’ll start with Night Elves as we are blessed by several posters with deep knowledge about this race’s lore, it’s needs and some solutions moving forward.

Before i drop the mic and leave the stage for you guys - by the way, everyone is welcome, just if you can drop the hostility for this series, i’d aprecciate it - i want to point out the “Fair” part of the title. On Night Elves in particular, they were imagined first as a full fledged faction, in WC3, War of the Ancients and so forth. So they were pretty much forced to be “defanged” by design before WOW began. Because if you leave its entire WC3 strength intact, being just a member of a faction wouldn’t have made much sense to begin with.

So without further ado, what would be your “Ideal, but fair” depiction of this, at times, very controversial race?

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Completely obliterated is my fair depiction of that race, incapable of doing anything anymore, considering the amounts of time they went through extinction events and their increased life-spans making repopulation nigh impossible. So yeah, Night Elves should be extinct and incapable of basically anything at this point in time without hiding behind the cloak of the Alliance.

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Goshom responding in the twit way we’ve all come to expect him to. 0/10, you’re a tumor.

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There is no High King. Its a garbage idea and should be treated a such.

The Alliance is just like the WC2 Alliance of old. Its “ruled” by a council. Anduin can even be the poorly copied Terenas clone. Any big decision has to be voted for by the council, and this lets Anduin be good at what he’s good at: Diplomacy and compromise. This lets non-front races have a voice, and lets us have out morally grey GoT-style shady politics while allowing the Lawful Good crowd to have their moments while letting imperialistic dwarves, savage elves and worgen, and whimsical gnomes have their say. Its lets member nations do as they please unless they want to deal with the Horde at large. It even lets the Alliance do something unthinkable as of now: Strike the Horde first.

However, the War-Leader of the Alliance is still a elected position. And it cannot be someone who is a faction leader just like it was a requirement during WC2. This gives non-faction leaders a chance to shine. It also more closely resembles the inspiration cited for Supreme Commander, the real life Supreme Allied Commanders of WW2 since Blizzard seems to be obsessed with such a simplified view of that war. While they cited General Eisenhower as an example, they completely ignored Douglas MacArthur, Admiral Chester Nimitz, and later General Doolittle. Each was in charge of their own theater of war, since directing a world war is simply impossible for one person alone. So now we have have multiple fronts directed by different leaders, possibly reporting to one Supreme Commander who’s bogged down with paperwork and about to take their badges if they wern’t so good at their jobs.

The only flaw in this idea is Blizzard’s self-admitted laziness to writing for the Alliance to do anything but react to the Horde.

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Well, I guess it depends on where you think Blizz started to go wrong. But you also have to keep in mind game mechanics

(IE some people think them joining the Alliance was a mistake, but they had to be on one faction. Otherwise they wouldn’t be playable)

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Without deep remodeling, Kaldorei couldn’t be a faction on WOW (even if having some high-fantasy elements that would make this plausible). I put that caveat because i think that strays too far from the narrative and the gameplay we have available.

Also:

This tbh

I intend to run at least 3 more rounds of this series, or maybe more depending on its popularity.

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I think it’s a little late for undoing the damage done to Night Elves, but going with the hypothetical: they should never have been Worfed as many times as they did in WoW. They’ve forever been a punching bag for the Horde and other enemies to the point that they’re so far gone only Blizzard pulling something out of their butts can turn it around. Fair treatment would have been never getting to this point in the first place.

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I’ll let the Night elf fans take it from here then. I feel Iike most of the problems are so deeply rooted in the story that to form it into something acceptable you’d have to rewrite the story altogether.

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Night Elves definitely need more marks in the ‘win’ column at this point, though for the WC3 roots they really should show off their military’s nature as a largely skirmisher force rather then just throwing them toe to toe with orcs.

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In terms of my “ideal, but fair” depiction? For starters just off the top of my head, they should get SOME part of Kalimdor back. Toss out that god awful “Red Kalimdor, Blue Eastern Kingdoms” idea, it was a crap idea from the beginning. Give them back Darkshore, or Ashenvale, or even Stonetalon. Stop gentrifying this race into the great human conglomerate.

Past that, I’d like to go into the reasoning for why they’re in the Alliance. At the moment, the reasons are weak, and we had a great opportunity to display the bond between the Kaldorei and the Alliance as a whole in the Darkshore scenario - although the argument between Tyrande and Anduin was, in my opinion, a well-written scene, as neither of them were really in the wrong. Is it just simple survival? The writers can’t simply write “we owe the Alliance/Horde” and never show any kind of kinship. Hell, the Night Elves volunteered for the Nazmir suicide mission - WHY did they do that?

This is in part why Nazjatar concerns me so much. Ideally, we should see Tyrande make a return to the story to oppose Queen Azshara, in the same way that Velen was there to oppose the Legion in Sargeras. The Kaldorei - and more or less all the elven kingdoms, namely the Shal’dorei - deserve a bookend for their struggle against their traitor Queen, but given Blizzard’s track record, I’m unsure if they’ll get it.

As a stretch, perhaps stepping outside the bounds of fair for a moment? In lieu of Illidan, let’s see an Illidari Kaldorei (perhaps Altruis or Kor’vas) at some point in Nazjatar. Be a stand in for Illidan, AND explain why the hell Demon Hunters are still here. Two birds one stone.

In summary - give them back some of Kalimdor and let them shine for more than a single content patch, much like the Draenei in Legion.

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How am I wrong, again, no arguments as usual.

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Your night elf hate-on is unwelcome, unhelpful, and frankly, just factually incorrect. Plus, you’re Goshom, so you have that going against you.

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Easy, rather than answer the question you came in here with the most blatantly inflammatory answer you could that had nothing to do with the topic. “Ideal, but fair” you’re forgetting the second part or just don’t care. This isn’t “what I want to happen to a race I clearly don’t like.”

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Yep, no arguments. Yeah, I hate Night Elves, doesn’t mean my depiction is wrong. Night Elves went through many extinction events: Fact
Night Elves have increased life-spans: Fact
Night Elves would thusly take longer to repopulate: Fact
Small population = Small combat force: Fact
Small Combat Force = No use to anyone unless they have the backing of a superior faction: Fact.

So again, where was I wrong?

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While I dont agree with the last bit, I do believe that the Night Elves at this point should be depicted as a dwindling race of refugees, with their military arm reduced to a small core of highly skilled individuals barely keeping things together (and then only doing so by calling upon power from ancient eldritch rites that require some great sacrifice, i wasnt a fan of Tyrande demanding something from her goddess -but then maybe Elune didnt like her tone and made her a nightwarrior destined to die rather than an all powerful marauder of moonworship rendered immortal by sheer power.)

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Stop right there, criminal scum.

I don’t see how longer lifespan = longer repopulation. Do you just think Kaldorei childhood takes like fifty years? Hell, at this point, the orcs should be just as endangered as you demand (if it meant getting rid of you, I’d pray for it).

Pull your head out of your butt and own that you came in here just to bash a race you don’t like. You devalue any thread you’re in, twit.

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I’ll operate within the paradigms of a two faction system, since that’s probably a lot more realistic in terms of how they could have been handled, as opposed to being a faction unto themselves.

Appearance: The first time I saw Tyrande on the cover of WC3, that cemented my idea of what night elves were. Wild looking, with echoes of some ancient and more refined culture decorating them somewhat. Physically imposing, with fangs and claws, leaves in their hair, blessed by some mysterious pagan Goddess, and capable of literally vanishing if they stand still for too long.

Culture: Much more reclusive, and far fewer of them, with little in the way of centralized settlements. Much larger emphasis in all of them being connected to nature, and Elune as well, with Tyrande and Malfurion being the apex of either. Entire emphasis on hunting and gathering, using ancient methods to make their weapons and armor, each kaldorei capable of fighting for the forest if need be.

Military: Guerilla tactics, and major use of all their allies, as shown in WC3 as well. This would be balanced out by the small numbers of night elves in general, meaning in their forests they’re utter powerhouses, while abroad they’re still individually very dangerous but can be overwhelmed like any of the more physically gifted races like tauren. Their weapons should be the animals of the forest, and the Ancients, calling them up to fight alongside them. I really liked the way Zandalari are depicted in terms of Loa interactions, and ideally, would like to see something similar with the kaldorei.

Interactions: A better focus would need to be made in terms of the Alliance actually being an alliance, rather than a conglomerate. The night elves were conceived as a faction unto themselves, and that sort of power shouldn’t be tossed aside. This would be balanced out by the cultural divide between them and the other races, as well as their relative small number.

Basically, my ideal night elves are feral, spooky elves that have blessings from some mysterious Goddess that only likes them, are more likely to get along with the pets and mounts of their fellow Alliance members, and are physical and supernatural powerhouses that nonetheless rely on their allies to back them up in their times of weakness as much as their allies rely on them to call on nature or strike from the shadows. They should be the edgier side of the Alliance, ruthless and often tough to understand but also fiercely loyal to their friends.

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This, thank you. I might have been a little more hate-filled then I should have been, but that was my point, they should be useless unless they have the backing of another military, considering their dwindling numbers.

Actually, I think the child-hood was akin to 100 years at most, seeing how each ‘child’ needs to overcome some sort of rite to be considered as a adult. Which is usually done by the time they are 100.

Not sure if this was retconned, but that was the last thing I heard from either wowpedia or wow-wiki.

A theory that was proven to be a fact in WoW universe with a actual canon short story: Rise of the Horde. Where Durotan as a child sees a Draenei child, and Thrall later as a adult sees that same Draenei child who did not age a bit. He doesn’t know it, but we the readers do. I guess it was a ‘see? Not all children of Draenor were horribly murdered, some survived!’ type of deal.

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I assume most of us have at least a cursory knowledge of tv tropes around here: he probably subscribes to the immortal procreation clause theory. Which is less fact and more just common writing.

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Pretty much. If we can’t retcon anything, I think the only way to salvage the night Elf treatment is to have Tyrande actually be right for a change. Call out Anduin for failing as a leader, forcing him to step down or be voted out due to no confidence instead of just feeling bad. The alliance asks who should step up as High King, and someone states that it was a mistake to put their faith into a singular person instead of the Alliance as a whole. This leads to the Council of the Grand Alliance officially forming, and a new Supreme Allied Commander voted in. Someone who isn’t a racial leader.

This. Blizzard has intentionally and repeatedly ignored this continuity snarl. They even omitted this from the Chronicles 3. Why are the Night Elves even in the Alliance when they thematically have more in common with Thrall’s Horde? Bonus points if said explanation doesn’t revolve around “muh trees” or “muh Demigod.” Night Elves in WC3 were so much more than tree-hugging hippies who only wanted to spread free love or something asinine like that.

There’s no reason why they can’t still be xenophobic jerks who murder anyone dumb enough to be out in their territory at night. They are inspired from Warhammer wood elves, Let the Orcs who harvest trees under guard during the day fear the night.

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