Ideal, but fair depiction* of races - Round 2, Forsaken

Lore Story Forum
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*sic, i think i made a mistake there.

Following the fairly popular Round 1, Night Elves which is the start of this series, i want to present to you to this very controversial race.

We know the basics about this race’s history, coming from “Alliance of convenience” with the Horde from Classic to WOTLK, and their reforms from Cata onwards, forming an imperialistic state looking to conquer most of their borderlands.

For better or worse, this race Will be tied up to the Banshee Queen, unless Blizz decides to switch things up on BFA or later expansions.

As i said on Round one,

This time regarding the Forsaken as a race. Without making them completely overpowered so it wouldn’t make sense for them to be constrained to one faction, what would be your “Ideal but fair” depiction of the Forsaken?

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BfA have given me a reason hate the Forsaken with War of Thorns, Burning of Teldrassil and Battle for Darkshore, before that I actually liked the Forsaken a lot. One of my favorite races actually. I don’t really consider myself an Alliance player as much as a Night Elf player. Over the years, I slowly started to hate humans in WoW, mostly because how human culture seems to monopolize the Alliance. I dislike Orcs for the same reason on Horde side.

So while I don’t claim to be unbias here, whatever bias I might have is not obvious to me. For me, the moral blackness of the Forsaken was exactly what attracted me to the Forsaken to begin with. I am not a moral relativist, so what really annoys me about Blizzard’s story telling right now is how dishonest they have become with the moral alignments of the races and factions. Rather than just saying “These aspects of this culture is evil” Blizzard will tip toe around the issue completely.

The Forsaken share a lot of similarities to a post-WW1 Germany. If you were to take the public opinion Germany had on Jews and Slavs and replace it with “Humans in General” or perhaps even “The Living in General” then you basically have the foundation for the Forsaken in Vanilla, and the makings for an undead 3rd Reich.

For those who want a History Lesson, click here:

WW1 GERMANY

Britain was losing to Germany during WW1. Germany had been asking Britian for a cease fire for some time before the United States joined the War. The Imperialist nation of England was so desperate to not lose a war, and conscript the Aid of the US, they drew away their destroyer escort so a German U-boat could attack the Lusitania.

At the time though, much of the United States was Ethnically German, and the public expressed a lot of German support. It wasn’t until The Balfour Declaration, when public opinion in the US began to change, likely due to the Jewish Zionist aligned New York TImes. Over night the news in The United States went from Germany good to Germany is bayonetting babies.

The United States completely changed the ebb and flow of the war in the Allies favor, stirring unrest in Germany and starting the German Revolution, the result of which was a new German puppet Government appointed by German Zionists, who immediately surrendered.

After WW1, germany was in ashes, there was starvation, sickness, inflation, mass unemployment… People lost their families, their life savings, they were evicted from their homes.

And while the masses were starving and dying in filth, the wealthy jews stayed wealthy and were barely affected since they ran the banks.

Imagine the feeling when you can’t feed your children and you watch them wither away from starvation and can do absolutely nothing about it because you can’t find work and then you see some smug snob walking by, smirking at you in an expensive coat and a full wallet, how would you feel? chances are you’d hate him, and that’s exactly what happened

I don’t believe there is any justification for mass murder, enslavement, and unwilling human experimentation. Even if you could justify it, there is no moral rightness about it. And that is why I fully subscribe to Blizzard old intro for Forsaken:

“Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must massacre any who pose a threat to the new order, Human, Undead, or otherwise.”

It’s an unapologetic admission of what they are, and that’s cool, that makes them unique to all other playable races. They are the playable evil race, and frankly, I think trying to frame the Forsaken as some kind of morally misunderstood thing kind of declaws them, and makes them much less interesting and cool.

They are the original N@zi Zombies. I am not saying the Forsaken are a monolith, and all share these same views, but I do think people are often a product of the culture they live in. Between the nature of the Undead, the culture of the Forsaken, and Sylvanas’ authoritarian grip on Forsaken society, any Forsaken who doesn’t hold resentment and outright hatred for the living is a very rare outlier.

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I’d have the Forsaken start out similarly to how they did back in Vanilla. A people clinging to their old ruins, spurned by their kin and vowing supreme vengeance against the Scourge.

I’d probably want to tone down on the darker aspects of them, however. Just a bit. I love the Forsaken as amoral pragmatists. But the instances of “Lol we’re evil” would be nipped in the bud. Replace the tortured innocents being experimented on with captured members of the Scarlets or the Cult of the Damned. Stuff like that.

Wrath would similarly stay the same, complete with the Extremists’ attack. But, I’d definitely have them continue to play an important role against Arthas afterwards. The Forsaken, more than anyone, should have been instrumental in Arthas’ defeat.

The real change comes in Cata, since that’s when the Forsaken were “reinvented”. The biggest thing I’d change is remove the “Raise my enemies as frenzied Undead” thing. It’s been nothing but trouble. I’d also not have Val’kyr. Necromancers exist. Use em.

Forsaken still raise the dead, but never as a battle tactic. And loyalty is never coerced. Ideally, they also work to recruit any Scourge that may now be freed. Also, have the Cult of Forgotten Shadow be a major part of Forsaken society. Have them be the first race to really delve into the Void on a wide scale.

Hell, have the Cult replace any instance where the Val’kyr McGuffin is used. Val’kyr can still stick around, I suppose, as they could be recruited Scourge. But have them solely be about keeping Sylvanas alive and nothing else.

As a people, I’d almost say the Forsaken should be the “Family within the family”. Like, the Horde is family, and that’s cool. But the Forsaken, themselves, are also a family to each other. Essentially take what Voss says about them in BfA and apply it in practice.

I know I was a bit all over the place here. But those are some of my ideas to how I would want the Forsaken depicted. The big one would be to tone down on their raw evilness. Keep them dark but not in a “Lol let’s kill puppies” way. Because, otherwise, you risk players not being able to empathize or relate to them.

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Like I said in another thread, the direction of the Ebon Blade should have been the direction of the Forsaken. They were 2 undead factions whose sole purpose was to take revenge on Arthas.

Except after that, one became the dark knights of Azeroth, and the others Scourge 2.0

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I have a couple of things I’d like to see.
Make the Desolate Council an actual thing. Sylvanas since Wrath has constantly been involved at the front lines of the Forsaken war efforts, a group empowered to act in her stead at Undercity would make perfect sense. The Council would need to have seats for the important ‘pillars’ of Forsaken society though (the RAS, Deathstalkers, and Deathguard) rather then be an inexplicably civilian group in a highly militarized society.
Rather then raising the enemy, have the Val’kyr raise the Forsaken dead. The Val’kyr are far too important to risk anywhere near the front lines, have the Forsaken focus on retrieving the corpses of their own to revive elsewhere (This also reinforces the Forsaken population issue since their numbers would rarely increase).

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I have always been a fan of the undead in almost all media they are portrayed in, and I’ve always wanted to make some adjustments to the Forsaken and try to do so (with in the bounds of lore) when I can so this is how I would portray them.

-Personality and mindset-
First and foremost I would want to bring in a concept I have always loved applied to undead in which they may be an echo of their former life but now they can be broken down into one word ‘Drive’. I would want to let the Forsaken keep their on again off again memory retention but what would be the unifying feature of the race is their unholy drive to complete either a singular or specific set of tasks.
I’m not saying to turn them into robots, but if I were to use Vanleer here as an example it would be like this. “From the moment Vanleer awoke from his Scourge slumber he knew what must be done. He spent his every free moment chronicling his family’s history, digging deep into his memory and records to create the tone that spoke of the Vanleer Family. He must make a record that his bloodline existed, there was no other option.” Something along those lines, whether it is over something minor like delivering the last letter they wrote or major like reclaiming all of Lordearon for the Forsaken, every undead would have some kind of supreme drive.

Another change I would make to the personality would be this idea they must feel 'negative’all the time or that things like happiness and love are so detached that they can’t enjoy them anymore. I think it would be more apt to say that they now have a nihilistic view of the world or have had their frame of emotions shifted in a way no other race can understand. They would still feel joy and sorrow but it may be over completely different things than the living could comprehend.
Again for example, “Vanleer struck the offending Alliance soldier again and again, the last standing member of the party of Horde explorers sent into Drustvar he remained victorious as the human fell. He looked to his fallen comrades with a shrug, dead was dead, but as he realized that Kromgar’s ancestral totem had been shattered, he felt he overwhelming flood of despair fill him. The orc’s legacy now laid in shards beneath his corpse, never to be whole again.”
I hope that clarifies that the Forsaken mindset is no longer on the present or on lives like a living race, but perhaps on the lasting effect you leave on the world or what has helped shape it?

-Culture-
Now for the Forsaken as a culture, my number one complaint has been with the continuation of the reign of the Banshee Queen. I’m not saying that Sylvanas is the issue, she was the one who is responsible for the freedom of most all of the Forsaken you see from the Scourge, but that is also the issue. The Dark Lady has reached a near deific level of reverence and is being blindly followed by some and executing those who oppose her like in Before the Storm. What I would have rather seen is not the saviour of the Forsaken leading, but the Forsaken themselves leading each other much like the Desolate Council was setting up before being destroyed. Personally I would love to see Blightcaller take position of King or High General of the Forsaken as I’ve personally been reading into his actions in some cut scenes as doubting Sylvanas but that is neither here nor there.

The other big change in culture that I would want to see in the forsaken is this ‘Death to the Living’ mind set being removed. Yes the living spurned the Forsaken, to be specific it was the Alliance and their former allies. I would love the vengeance mindset to instead be turned towards the nations that turned their backs on the Forsaken as compared to the majority of the world. Sure if we include the personality changes I discussed previously they might be even more alienated as now you have droves of Forsaken marching around the Eastern Kingdoms not taking no for an answer when they ask to rebuild their former home in life even if it is currently occupied, but instead of taking it out on innocents it would be turned against Stormwind the nation in a political sense.

-Biology-
The single biggest thing I would want to change or see with the biology of your average Forsaken is concretely stating whether or not they are rotting away and are to fragile to clap lest they shatter bones, or if they are unfeeling juggernauts of neurotic flesh that can see on random hunks of meat to repair themselves. Personally I would prefer the latter, it would not only make more sense in my opinion in a world of magic, but it would also help drive home the notion that the ‘body’ is minor in comparison to the ‘presence’ that a Forsaken leaves behind.

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Just make it so they were not evil mad scientist cliches.

Tone down blight, make it so they arent fighting a war on the other side of the planet an sticking to their old homes. The Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron, so trying to seperate them from it makes no sense to me. Find a willing way to make new undead (Or just, you know, have new undead escape the scourge), turn down the stupid evil, and bam, race fixed.

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My problem is with the whole…

“What are we if not slaves to this torment?!”

To lets kill everyone and enslave them to this torment.

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Oh hohohoho I wish I could post popcorn gifs. On topic: another race I feel it’s too late to do anything for. They’ve been too firmly established as irredeemably evil that nobody in their right minds should ever trust them again. They should have had detractors of the plague slinging, human experimenting, sociopathic style of Forsaken from the very beginning to show that they actually had some humanity left. Instead they were portrayed as a cult dedicated to Sylvanas who revelled in the horrible things they do.

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I was afraid of this one. I’ll try to remain as unbiased as I can in my assessment. Apologies upfront if I don’t.

It goes without saying that things went really terribly for the Forsaken’s narrative in Cataclysm. Coming out of Undeath Sucks: The Expansion, it wasn’t a good look for them suddenly raising more people into it. Sylvanas constantly declared that the Forsaken needed to survive, but we were never given a good reason why.

The original Forsaken were liberated Scourge, and Sylvanas was a much more heroic freedom fighter back in the day. Their reason for existence was to enact revenge on the one that did this to them - in a way, their goal to stop Arthas from inflicting their suffering on others was actually quite noble, if hard to discern. And then all that got tossed out the window when they started inflicting it on others themselves.

A fair way to depict the Forsaken would (and this might be cheating) be retroactive writing. Show us a split in their society - after Arthas’s demise, show some Forsaken going through with Sylvanas’s suicide plan, while others wish to remain undead and build a new life. Edge of Night as it stands leaves a taste that Sylvanas only cares about the Forsaken as a meat shield. What it should have been is a conflict piece about her desire to die, and the Forsaken’s need for her rule.

At the pivotal moment where Sylvanas throws herself off, have her instead decide NOT to do so for the sake of her new people. Past that…

… y’know what, past that I’m just gonna sound like a human paladin, so I’ll just end with I personally have no idea how to even out the Forsaken’s depiction in their current characterization. It’s kind of a mess.

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Having a hard time understanding this post. You claim you don’t subscribe to moral relativism and enjoy your black/white fantasy yet at the same time enjoyed Forsaken pre-BfA? And somehow Forsaken at the moment in BfA made you dislike them? Isn’t BfA pushing the black/white fantasy you claimed to enjoy?

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My least favorite thing about the Forsaken is the whole thing where they kill and raise people, only for their victims to be loyal to the Forsaken after. I get that this has been discussed a million times already. I’m not trying to reopen it, but I think the Forsaken would be much better off without it.

To that end, I think the Forsaken should start a death cult. A Dead Clan, Bwonsamdi’s Bro Co., Legion of the Dead, whatever. Members of the Horde, Alliance traitors, 3rd parties, etc can choose to join this clan/cult. These people agree that when they die, they will be raised as Forsaken. Maybe there’s a benefit to being a member while you’re still alive; haven’t thought anything like that through.

War-loving orcs would get another chance to fight. The Horde could have a scary elite fighting force that keeps getting back up. Craftsmen could agree to be freed from stupid things like eating and sleeping to pursue their work. People could sacrifice an easy afterlife to keep fighting the big bads for the greater good.
Basically, the clan is for those who see the advantages of undeath as greater than the costs and choose to join.

This theoretically solves the ‘forsaken procreation’ thing without any debates about mind control, murder as a means of reproduction, etc. Freewill would be strengthened as a cornerstone of Forsaken society, since the members are choosing to join. It gives the Forsaken a way to have more diverse opinions, backgrounds, and motivations within Forsaken culture. They can escape the Sylvanas cult of personality “victims of the scourge” boat. We can also have Forsaken characters who aren’t evil and just want to invent the lightbulb without having to sleep, or defend their family without fearing death and so on.

Tl;dr Forsaken start a death cult of ACTUALLY willing souls without any post-cata shenanigans.

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Maybe we can get the syndicate and other remains of Alterac on our side for the death cult thing. It would make more sense then any other human kingdom anyway.

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I feel like I’ve read this exact thing somewhere before…

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Well, I dislike the Forsaken now because of what the did to the Night Elves, and I have an overwhelming Night Elf Bias. lol

But, I enjoyed the Forsaken before BfA, and even more so Pre-Cata, because they were the evil faction. I never saw them as morally grey, I saw them as evil, and I liked that. Sometimes you wana be the bad guy, you know? That’s why I played Empire in Swtor when I still played that game.

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well at least your honest.

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We all have biases. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying.

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I get the fantasy of wanting to play the bad guy, that’s not what the Forsaken were marketed as pre-Cata nor post-Cata (prior to BfA) though. Blizzard even stated the intent on creating Forsaken themselves.

Bo Bell: But then, there was the epiphany that some people were into playing evil races/factions. Whereas a LOT more people wanted to play as these "evil races (Forsaken not included) but as the good guys (Thrall’s Orcs during WCIII).

So, Metzen needed to come up with something for the undead. We seriously considered dropping them, but every time we looked at concepts/in game assets we balked. Then he announced the Forsaken.

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I think Hackbrew and Vanleer hit the most of the nails on the head. To maybe add some things on top of that.

First off I think the major problem when it comes down to it is well basically the moral part of it comming from the players. You get pro-Forsaken going “we’re not evil! Just trying to survive in world to have us killed!” Then those against Forsaken going “You’re evil! Accept it! It’s okay, everyone else accepted it!” And of course the “THEY MUST BE PURGED! DEUS VULT!” And everything in between. Personally I am in between the “You’re evil just accept it!” And “DEUS VULT!” Categories.

No other playable faction gets this. Orcs come second, and I don’t think they come in even close. Something should maybe be done about this. Activision Blizzard should really tone down the hate. Problem is they keep giving people a reason to hate them, and then Forsaken players are forced to defend themselves. Just really need to tone that down.

Second I think the Forsaken need to be less monolithic of evil and hatred. They need to perform more good deeds for all of Azeroth to counter balance their hate. To help this there should be a good Forsaken faction. The thing that made the Tauren cool back in Pre-cata was the Grimtotem. It was the counter balance to our good nature. Prevented us from being a monolithic good race. When they were removed well we became a monolithic good race, and became side kicks to even the side kick races. It sucked loosing our bad half, and I think the Forsaken needs a good half. It also would really challenge the concept of “PURGE! PURGE! PURGE!” Since there is living proof of active Forsaken being good for all of Azeroth.

When I hear of good Forsaken deeds, I only hear it mostly done for the Forsaken, and sometimes done for the Horde. When it is done for the Horde it feels and looks mostly for their own ends. Top it off that Teldrassil outweighs most of the good deeds the Forsaken have done. Yes it was against the Alliance, but it damned the Horde in the process. The only time I’ve seen the Forsaken do something for all of Azeroth was developing a cure for the Plague Arthas unleashed pre-WotLK. Need more deeds of those to off set the bad. That way people don’t jump straight to wanting to genocide the Forsaken.

Thirdly I think it was already mentioned, Sylvanas needs to stop sucking in all of the Forsaken story. Even in Classic I found this to be an issue. My first character was a Forsaken Warlock and I couldn’t continue to play him because “Sylvanas this, Sylvanas that, Worship the Dark Lady!” For such a free willed race, they sure do worship her as a God in a less free will way.

The Desolate council was an awesome thing, gave the Forsaken something else other than Sylvanas. Other races may have this problem, but not to the extent the Forsaken have with Sylvanas. You don’t hear Humans going “High King watch over you!” “Victory for Anduin/Varian!” “Thank the High King you survived!” The Forsaken need to evolve away from Sylvanas.

Fourthly I think the Forsaken just need to connect more with the Horde. The whole “family within family, ignore other races.” Is what drives them away. If anything the Forsaken and Tauren should be bros. We were the reason the Horde took them in the first place, and proven they were not really forsakened. Instead they used us for experiments even in pre-Cata.

Maybe instead of committing suicide after Arthas’ fall, Sylvanas should have looked into strengthening the bonds between the Forsaken and the Horde. She doesn’t need to be gung-ho honorable. Just make the Forsaken feel more connected and less “Oh we Hordies took in the Forsaken, look how good we are. Now we will just ignore them.” Give the Horde a real good, personal reason to fight for the Forsaken, especially now in BfA in this war.

Lastly though this one is I’ll admit is dumb because it is a big hurdle. I think their reproduction problem needs to be solved. Being forced to reproduce from death makes relationships with the world justifiably complicated. I don’t think a death cult would work, and wouldn’t be a good permanent solution. Their kill other races and raise them make them more parasitic in nature and less being a race.

Loosing that though would be loosing a lot of the Forsaken theme. Even to fix the problem, how? I’d say sacrafice Calia to make the Forsaken reproduction system work maybe? Because it is light? It would also get rid of her also. Even typing this is a stretch and a silly idea.

Really it is all silly I know, but it sadly adds justified fuel to the fire of “DEUS VULT!” Because having a parasitic race around that lives by killing off others can make said other races being justifiably uncomfortable.

All in all we need way more reasons to not hate the Forsaken, and need more reasons to love them. It just feels like Activision Blizzard wants people on both sides to either love them or hate them. There is no middle ground, and it quite scary at times. Forsaken are players, not NPCs. This isn’t the Burning Legion, Scourge, or Twilight Hammer we are dealing with, but actual players. Something even I think I forget at times.

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Same. Pre-Cataclysm (maybe even pre-Wrath) Forsaken are my favorite. While they did have dark aspects, they were mostly just beleaguered, undead people trying to eke out an existence in a world that didn’t want them.

This character - my main - is undead, but left the Forsaken after Wrath because he could see them just becoming more and more evil, especially with Sylvanas raising new people. Undeath is a curse, and he couldn’t abide by it even if the newly risen were given free will.

I was also really angry at the change to Brill from normal, run-down human town to mad scientist’s laboratory. It pretty much killed all the RP taking place there on Moon Guard.

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