Yea, no.
Big @$$ hammer superceedes any sort of “support” we play. Lol
That’s the real issue they can’t solve.
Hitbox seem to have lost all meaning, sometime you’re in range sometimes not…
The big circle around the mob/boss? Doesn’t mean anything, oh well.
Instead of going mob by mob fixing the hit boxes, just make it 8yd as you say for all melee kick.
It’s just pointless friction.
Basically, whether it is main damage builders, or spenders, players expect visibly identifiable movement of enemy health bars when you press Judgment, BoJ, HoW, TV, FV, WoA, and HoL. How much each should move health bars as you mentioned is very much up for debate.
If Ret is doing less damage than a similar item level spec(Fury, Frost DK, whatever spec is doing real well), during 5 min of testing, does it deserve to do less? Why does it deserve to do less? If it doesnt deserve to do less what % of damage done is it behind its competition? That 10% or whatever (found out in testing done by Blizzard) damage it lacks compared to the front runners, where can we put it that is fun, without changing the whole rotation up? Oh, I know, Ret players have been screaming from the rooftops for ages that sub 400k FVs with every modifier that exists and 40% Mastery is pathetic, disgusting, and down right disrespectful to all who love Ret, we could actually fix it!
and the Ret community all clap in unison
It’s interesting because WoA > HoL with RG every 30 sec is more burst windows than Ret has ever had before. That combo does chunk, right? Herald doesn’t really chunk but how can it when it’s largely a DoT spec. There’s no way to make TV delete people without removing hero talents and baking all that damage into TV / DS, which obviously won’t happen.
Is the damage actually bad though? I haven’t done PvP in weeks, but looks like Ret has greatly improved since the patches (class tree + Templar buffs):
3v3: drustvar. com/leaderboard/stats/us/3v3?top=1000
Solo: drustvar. com/leaderboard/solo-shuffle-stats/us
Blitz: drustvar. com/leaderboard/battleground-blitz-stats/us
I find it hard to believe that this is all based on our utility, that our damage is bad. I’ve also kept an eye on Murlok (another ranking / meta site), and what I find interesting is that Herald, while still played, is now less popular than Templar. It makes sense because Templar has actual burst.
I concede that Templar has burst, even in pvp with dozens of pvp specific nerfs which includes pvp nerfs to HoL. Rets damage isnt lower than average, until it faces certain specs that are ultra slippery like mages or other specs that can keep someone including Ret in long CC chains. Maximum damage and inturupts for Ret require having your player model inside of the target you want to inturupt or do maximum damage to.
All of that is to say, if damage meters didnt exist we might not notice FV in pvp averages 300 damage per cast, and we might feel target uptime and time stuck in CCs is our main problem. Damage probably shouldn’t be tuned in a vacuum, there are other factors to consider. Mobility, CC available, defensives and DoTs and if they are dispellable or not are also factors when comparing specs.
Ret has telegraphed non-instant mobility that is easy to remove, dispellable Blessing of Freedom, dispellable defensives, few pvp viable CCs and Hammer of Justice is dispellable as it is a holy spell. So Vs specs with some combination of more mobility, more CC, defensives that cant be dispelled, dots with dispell backlash, invisibility, disarm, MS effects Ret may deserve to do more damage as compensation for the tools it lacks, in comparison.
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I don’t disagree with you, I think that Ret’s damage in PvP should be tuned fairly high, but then I look at our representation and it seems like we’re already in a good place: apparently we’re the best melee in Blitz (this comes as a big surprise to me), and perhaps low S tier in Shuffle and A tier in 3s. So either our damage is already good, or our utility is really bangin and more than makes up for the weaknesses you listed.
Again, I haven’t done any PvP in weeks, but it’s hard to argue with that sort of rep on the ladders.
edit:
Looks like Ret does a little worse in EU, which is interesting. It’s still solid though.
Representation wise I think Ret is pretty fine in group PvP. I think the problem with Ret is just the problem with WoW PvP in general right now… everyone has the same level of burst, sustain, self healing, cc, etc…
It’s just bad through the lens of a Ret paladin when you know you don’t have burst and with that-- an MS or Purge to make up for it.
What I think isn’t talked about enough is the PvP Talent System being dated.
3 PvP Talent choice system made sense when there were only 9 rows of Talents to choose from prior to DF, but this 3 talent point system has been pretty dated since the talent tree revamp.
It’s no secret, PvPers need their own talent trees.
Ret specific, I think the interesting topic is the Rogue/Warrior/Ret arms race.
As a Warrior, I feel as if my role in PvP is being consumed by rogues. They have MS, Disarm, etc… but also powerful stuns, good defensives, an Outlaw rogue is basically a Warrior…
So where does that leave Warriors?
- I want intervene/Safeguard (BoSanc)
- I want Mass Spell Reflect/Rebound
- I want Beserker Shout breaking fears (BoSanc)
- I want War Banner (BoSanc)
- I want Rally to remove roots (Battlefield Commander)
I want more utility to separate me as a Warrior from a Rogue…
Okay… now where does that leave Ret Paladins in comparison to Warriors? If you begin to give all these utility tools to warriors, where does that leave Ret?
Personally, I think the toxicity of Ret/Warrior/Healer comps wasn’t because of the Ret, lol. Warriors had just as much defensive utility as Paladins and that overlap causes damp games.
So where do you view the roles of Rogues vs Warriors and then Warriors vs Ret? 
(If Warriors get their combat system revamped, which hopefully they do in 11.1, their defensive utility kit is gonna be a huge problem.)
Ret and War representation is always high, but when Ret is very strong we saw it make up 25% of the population in arena matches, for 1 of 36 available specs to be so well represented it was very unlikely at one time to be in a solo shufle lobby with less than 2 Rets
We know people are willing to play Ret when it’s good. The main reason Ret is popular even if it’s mathmatically a poor choice is people like the theme. This leads me to believe that if Retribution was average in pvp representation, it’s value in pvp is would likely be low B tier or worse.
The times when Rets damage was poor and due to 30 second Forbearance its fragility was high without having a large defensive at the ready, it was the ideal kill target. You kill the Ret even if it’s damage isnt much, so the Ret cannot use its defensives on other players, and because Forbearance gifts you a win condition versus the Ret. Now that Forbearance can be less of an issue, thanks to new talents, Ret is not always the easiest kill target if it has all its CDs, but that doesn’t mean its damage has to stay mediocre.
All specs want impactful results when they push buttons. It’s always seemed very strange to me to have an 8 or 12 second easily avoidable impact of Execution Sentence be amplified by good uptime on the target but then when it finally hits a target who does not use defensives it doesn’t really move the health bar at all. I’m not sure why it’s still called Execution Sentence if the damage output makes me think it should actually be called pat on the back.
People can say, well, they took the damage out of Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning, and put it into our fifteen little dots hits, but does that make the game feel better?
You’re trying to have it both ways where Ret has “pretty fine” representation (it’s arguably the best melee in Blitz according to the numbers), but at the same time is lacking this and that. No one is supposed to have everything, but what Ret has clearly works right now, just like it did at the end of Dragonflight after the nerfs. You say that warrior was the problem in war-Ret 3s, but how does that account for Ret being S tier in Shuffle during that period?
Actual PvP talent trees would be great.
How is rogue stepping on warrior’s toes by having MS, disarm, and stuns when Wound Poison is from TBC, I believe Dismantle is Wrath, and both classes have always had stuns. I agree rogue should be squishy, and when they’re not it’s because Blizz messed up. I suppose with Outlaw the goal is to differentiate the rogue specs, but really no rogue should be tanky.
As for war vs. Ret, you could say why does Ret have an interrupt, why does it have any gap-closer, why does it have any defensives outside of Forbearance abilities? Ret has changed over the years too. I’d love for some of the homogenization to be scaled back, but you’re not only suggesting that, there’s always also the subtext that Ret is just worse than these classes / specs. Warrior has indeed gotten some “Ret utility” in recent xpacs, but Battlefield Commander > Rallying Cry is no where near as good as Unbound Freedom, and do warriors even run Safeguard or War Banner? I don’t think Fury even has the latter. Meanwhile Rets always play Sac and Sanct, and magic BoP was added to our kit last xpac and LoH that ignores healing debuffs this xpac.
Unless we’re talking 2s, I just don’t agree that there’s anything fundamentally wrong with Ret. It sucked at the start of the xpac because survivability was scaled back too much and some specs had busted damage, but most of that’s been fixed now.
But it’s not just popular in general, it’s popular at high ratings. It’s not as if all the best players flocked to Ret even though it sucks because they love the theme, and thereby heroically inflated its position on the ladders.
I agree that ES should but doesn’t feel impactful in PvP. Same goes for FR.
So at the end of the day I think Ret could probably use some minor buffs in 3s, and since I like it when our off-healing is decent, I’d like to see the negative PvP modifiers scaled back a bit. I don’t know if there’s really space to buff Ret’s overall damage. That’s my take, and keep in mind that the first time I PvP’d in a few weeks was this morning. Maybe top Rets have a different view, and I certainly don’t mean to shut you guys down. Just wanted to give my two cents.
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Yes and no, I think there has to be some value in viewing it as DPS spec vs DPS specs* .
Yes, there’s 305 Ret Paladins +2100 in Blitz, which is great, but there’s also 263 (fury) + 216 (arms) warriors.
- There’s 305 DPS Paladins.
But…
- There’s 479 DPS Warriors.
- There’s 526 DPS rogues.
- There’s 363 DPS DKs.
And imo, continues even with things like Druids, where they have a caster and melee builds.
In those cases;
- There’s 497 (267 feral + 230 boomies) Druids.
- etc…
*If Paladins had 2 DPS specs, and there was 115 “Retribution Paladins” and 190 “Crusader Paladins” … it wouldn’t change the amount of DPS Paladins. But does this change your view of Paladin’s Status?
So with that, compared to DPS Monks, DPS Paladins are S++++ Tier, compared to everyone else, DPS Paladins are honestly sub B.
I agree, but I feel like that’s the issue of everyone does have everything. Which stems from the need for PvP Only Talent Trees.
Yes and no, which is hard topic to discuss, lol.
I think Ret and Enhance being the only melee without an MS, and Ret specifically being the only class without an MS or Purge is the last hurdle to get over before the game is completely homogenized.
Now, do I want that? No.
I’d rather DH and Druids, etc lose their MS, Monks and Rogues lose their Disarms and we go back to more strengths and weaknesses throughout the game, but as always it doesn’t help Paladins to sit on the fence.
It’s more just an observation about Blessing of Sanctuary and the hate the ability (and Ret) gets.
BoSanc is an OP ability!
- Yes, but War Banner effects my 40 man Raid…
- Yes, but Rally effects my 40 man Raid…
- Yes, but Tremor effects my 40 man Raid…
- Yes, but Reverse Magic effects my 40 man Raid…
- Yes, but Mass Dispel effects 5 Allies and 5 Enemies, and also dispels “powerful abilities” like Cyclone and Bubble…
The “hate” that Ret gets always feels through a misguided lens, like no other class has any other ability, these abilities not effecting a whole Epic BG group, etc…
It’s a slippery slope arguement for sure, just one I think is interesting to talk about in the case of de-homogenizing the overall game.
Any top-tier Warrior would tell you to just play a rogue. They are more viable, more constant, and without the same level of weaknesses a Warrior has.
If Warriors get a better combat system, and continue to encroach on Ret’s Defensive utility, it’ll be a slippery slope into Top-Tier Ret Paladins telling players to just play an Arms warrior. They are more viable, more consistent, have more tools, etc…
That’s just what I mean about making roles more defined.
If you could de-homogenized the PvP Game, what strengths and weaknesses would you give Rogues, Warriors, and Paladins from not stepping on eachother’s toes. 
First, I agree Ret > Holy is less porous than Fury > Arms, but you can’t ignore that Holy exists. Second, check this out: murlok. io/meta/dps/blitz
It gives a more accurate picture of the top end because Drustvar stops at 2.8k. I’m sure you’re right that if the best rogue players played either Sub or Assass then that spec would have a higher average Blitz rating than Ret, but adding Fury and Arms together wouldn’t help warrior much. Ret isn’t the best Blitz melee, but sub B tier? Noo way
It is that good though. In Blitz for example you’d think the value would fall off, but Ret is really good at escorting the FC. Warrior can’t do that with its knockoff paladin utility.
Fury is excellent right now in arena and has been for a while.
How would I do it?
Warrior wouldn’t have an on-demand stun and would lose a lot of damage by playing defensive, but when it did it’d be an absolute wall. Think Terran units in StarCraft that swap modes, or really just how warrior stances originally worked. Sharpen would be like 60% and some of the healing debuffs that were added to the game would be removed.
I think rogue can actually die now and therefore plays pretty much the way the class is supposed to play. The only thing I’d change is that Shadowmeld shouldn’t be another Vanish.
For paladin I’d swap interrupt for magic dispel and make WoG and FoL strong. Blessings are already unique and powerful, but maybe Sac can be a little better for Ret.
None of my suggestions are likely, but something I could see is that we get real PvP talent trees one day. But if anything these would homogenize the game further since the devs would have to think up stuff to fill the slots. Ret might get an MS this way, which would be a TRAVESTY, but I’d enjoy it on some level because the game changes and you either go along with it willingly, unwillingly, or quit. The worst choice has gotta be #2, right?
de-homogenized specs could actually play out very well for Ret.
If class devs were limited to choosing only 2/3s of the following for their Specs going forward what a world would we live in.
DoTs(on non-assa rogues and Aff locks)
Instant mobility
Enemy relocation including knockbacks
Invisability
Instant CC (one spell only)
Disarm
MS
More than 3 CCs
Spamable casted CC (one spell)
Ret has 4 of these 9(but also kind of only 2 of these because the other 2 dont reeeealy count as they offer nearly no pvp use cases.
1 DoTs although most are optional talents
2 Intant CC with dispellable HoJ
3 More than 3 CCs if you count a weak slow AND count choice node options that are both CC as 2 CC options, I wouldnt.
4 Spamable CC if you count Repentance we dont use much because being kicked using it or Searing Glare can lead to us dying just as fast as being kicked on Flash of Light, all are Holy school magic like a lot of what we do.
If I could pick 6 for Ret it would be:
1 Instant CC, like HoJ but a physical stun
2 Spamable CC, something OUT of the holy school like Polymorph on a frost mage.
3 Instant mobility for christs sake
4 Invisability, because why not its OP in pvp and we can come up with some spiritual excuse for it
5 MS because any top tier dps is SELF SUFFICIENT
6 enemy relocation. Knocks and grips are too useful not to want something like that.
Bam, I should have just played a rogue, they have everything I want and smoke bomb, dots, 2 vanishs, a Divine Shield like ability, yup should have just played Rogue.
If you could only only pick 6 of these 9, what are you taking.
It does sound like you’d prefer rogue, or they gotta add multi-classing to the game for you. 
I think that at the end of the day you may just not like playing a DPS that revolves around support utility that’s directly cast on teammates. Ret is the closest thing WoW PvP has to a hybrid, which I’d really rather not trade for the stock melee DPS kit. Ret was even fine in 2s of all brackets during Shadowlands playing double DPS before its healing was gutted while simultaneously the devs did their best Oprah impression giving everyone MS. Now you can point to DH and Feral and whatnot and say well they have one now, surely it’s time Ret gets one too?
But like I said the game evolves, so if that’s the way it goes then that’s the way it goes.
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Well it’s just in general of highlighting the “red headed stepchild” Ret has historically been treated as.
It’s not to be a whinny post, just noting how other classes have similar powerful utility that often gets overlooked for “reasons.”
I’ve Rallied teammates out of RootBeams, I’ve Berserker Shouted both teammates out of Psychic Screams, etc…
Forbearance being eased up on, and Lay on Hands being more impactful hasn’t caused Ret to spiral out of control…. with balance, would an MS?
Again, I’d rather more classes lose MS than Paladins gain it, but it’s just an interesting topic. Just curiosity, do the pros outweigh the cons?
Fury Warrior is good, don’t get me wrong, but ehhhh it’s not Rogue levels lol…
But in the case of Fury, I think this is where the interesting topic lies with the Warr/Ret situation.
#1-- Warriors need a better combat system, good chance that’s coming in 11.1, but that aside, if you simplify it, I’d try to break it down like this;
- Fury = 80% offensive, 20% defensive
- Fury is very aggressive, it stays on its target, its pumping damage its gogogo.
- It does a good job of filling the “role” of a warrior imo
However, if we over simplify Arms, it feels more like:
- Arms = 50% offensive, 50% defensive
- Arms is too defensive, or at the very least becoming too defensive with talents.
- Arms should be 60-65% offensive, 40-35% defensive
And then keeping on this spectrum, where do Paladins feel like the fit in?
- Ret = 55% offensive, 45% defensive
- For the Melee Plate Armor Defensive Healing Hybird, Ret still feels pretty squishy.
- Our Offensive is good but is this the identity or role that a Paladin should be filling?
Where does Fury, Arms and Ret fall on that spectrum? What roles do they play?
And this is coming from the idea of, when I play my warrior and I have;
- Intervene
- Spell Refelct
- Disarm
- War Banner
- Necrolord’s Banner
- Spear of Bastion
- Shockwave
- Rallying Cry
- Berserker Shout
- Duel
- Bitter Immunity
- Victory Rush
- Shattering Throw
And I’m like damn, I have more utility options on my Warrior than I do on my Paladin. If my combat system didn’t suck, and hopefully it won’t in 11.1, I’d never log onto my Paladin, lol.
Again, I know it’s the slippery slope argument, but it’s too ask;
- What does it mean to be a Fury Warrior?
- What does it mean to be an Arms Warrior?
- What does it mean to be a Retribution Paladin?
- Are these roles being reflected adequately?
- Ultimately, how does this branch out to all the specs of WoW, etc…
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Forbearance was only eased up on and Empyrean Ward added after other aspects of our survivability had been nerfed. Imagine if these were implemented at the end of DF when our survivability was perfectly fine.
So what piece of paladin utility are you planning to take away to add MS?
It is in Shuffle, imo.
“Pretty squishy” is overselling it. At worst Ret is slightly squishy, which could be solved by tweaks to the negative PvP modifiers of WoG, FoL, and DP. I don’t think any spec should be an absolute livelord in PvP.
Earlier you said you don’t mean your post to be whiny, but I don’t find your posts whiny at all. I just think you exaggerate sometimes. Intervene, Spell Reflect, Shockwave, Berserker Shout, Victory Rush, sure… Disarm and War Banner, sometimes, but probably never both at once, and Fury can’t get War Banner. Is Necrolord’s Banner even still a thing? I don’t think anyone takes Spear of Bastion. Rallying Cry, ehhh… I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen Duel. Bitter Immunity is not that good, didn’t it used to remove bleeds? And Shattering Throw is rarely taken.
Like I said Ret’s a hybrid, not in that it’s supposed to do 50/50 damage and healing, but rather it has a lot of external CDs, which tend to be healer utility. Yea, Intervene goes in this category (it even requires you to target an ally like Ret utility does, unlike, say, AMZ), but no way does warrior have as many externals as Ret.
To further this hybrid identity I’d like to see WoG and FoL make a comeback (the negative PvP modifiers, my god) along with revamped PvP talents:
- Aura of Reckoning should be moved to the Ret tree to free up a slot. It simply wouldn’t be taken in PvE, and I’m sure other classes / specs have talents that deserve the same treatment.
- Blessing of Spellwarding should be in the class tree for Ret only as an alternative to BoP that reads “ONLY WORKS IN PVP.” I know this is unlikely but it’d please me, lol.
- Spreading the Word should include Sanctuary somehow, and Spellwarding should reduce magic damage taken by your raid (currently reduces physical damage like BoP). This is a really cool talent that I really want to take but it needs some love first.
- Where’s our Cleanse Toxins PvP talent? Maybe it could remove bleeds but on a longer cooldown, basically Mending Bandage for Ret.
- Where are our WoG and FoL PvP talents? Maybe Ret can get another way to counter healing debuffs, or the Prot PvP talent Guarded by the Light.
I’m not totally against offensive PvP talents (Searing Glare is cool), but paladin is largely a defensive class, and when it comes to utility I’ve always believed that class comes before role: I’m a paladin who plays Ret, not a Ret Paladin. Of course I actually do say Ret Pal all the time, but you get what I mean.
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Yeah, and again, my argument is admittedly weak because it’s under the assumption that Warriors will get their Ret10.1 revamp in 11.1.
Where hopefully they have more access to Shattering Throw, Champion’s Spear, etc… The things that make Warriors-- Warriors.
(This is more of an 11.1 PTR conversation. 
)
My concern as a Ret Main, is that a Warrior revamp has the potential to encroach on Ret’s Defensive Hybrid domain, in the same way that Rogues (mostly Outlaw) encroach on Warrior’s PvP domain.
For sure, I’m just trying to be a bit proactive with this conversation while simultaneously defining more roles, identifies, or whatever “word” you wanna use for PvP Specs.
Step 1:
- Rogues no longer have Disarm[PvP Talent]
- Rogues feel like they have too many tools and we want Warriors to better fill this role in PvP
Step 2:
- Intervene now has a 45 sec cooldown up from 30.
- Safeguard[PvP Talent] is now Protection Warrior Spec Only.
- Duel[PvP Talent] has been removed.
- Warrior defensive utility has felt stronger than intended, while their offensive utility has felt weaker. We plan to better balance these two aspects of the specs.
** - Etc…**
- Warrior defensive utility has felt stronger than intended, while their offensive utility has felt weaker. We plan to better balance these two aspects of the specs.
Step 3:
And I’m not repeating this for no reason, I just feel like the root of the problem is the rogue encroachment that’s lead to the warrior’s encroachment of Paladins.
As a Paladin:
- I wanted Spear of Bastion
- I wanted Necrolord’s Banner
- I wanted War Banner
- I wanted Intervene
- I wanted Safeguard
- I wanted Duel
Why do you keep giving paladin sh*t to warriors?! lol Give me these cool defensive hybrid talents and make new offensive ones for Warriors, why am I stuck with “Divine Toll” and “Luminescence?” wtf is this…
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Some of those abilities like Dismantle and Intervene have been in the rogue and warrior kits for ages. I mean I suppose Dismantle could be cut as part of a large-scale revamp to everyone’s kit, but I’m less sold on the idea that Spear of Bastion should’ve been a paladin ability. Even if it could’ve been, it fits warrior well. It’s like saying if DK wasn’t added to the game Death Grip could’ve been Chains of Justice. Maybe, but it works great as a core ability for DK. It doesn’t encroach at all on paladin (like their horse sort of does, but also sort of doesn’t).
Overall I’m happy with Ret’s kit. My main gripe is that WoG and FoL, core abilities we learn on the way to level 10, are gutted in PvP. And the entire PvP talent system could use an overhaul. I made a thread inspired by you: Should PvP have talent trees?
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Yeah, I understand Spear of Bastion being a Warrior ability, but I think there was potential for it to be a Paladin ability, but I just think that’s the interesting conversation of where Arms ends and Ret begins.
And ultimately how that’s effected Ret’s own personal DPS cooldowns, PvP Talents, and from there how “fun” Ret is too play.
Have there been any Arms abilities or PvP Talents that maybe suit the Paladin fantasy better?
- Could Duel be redesigned as a “Retaliation” talent for Paladins?
- Where’s the line between War Banner vs something like Lead the Charge?
- What is Blizz trying to accomplish with War Banner on Arms?
- What is Blizz trying to accomplish with Lead the Charge on Paladins?
- What makes the most sense?
- Does removing Safeguard (or “x”) from Warriors open up the possibility of more offensive abilities on Arms, while simultaneously opening up better defensive capabilities for Ret, ensuring that Ret/Warr doesn’t become a toxic damp comp?
- Are there any Fury PvP Talents could be redesigned for Arms, and Arms talents could be redesigned for Paladins?
idk, just think it’s an interesting train of thought but I’ll be done, didn’t mean to ramble this long about it, lol sorry.
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Yea, Duel could’ve been a paladin talent, and I don’t think warriors would care since they’ve never used it much. The only way to make Lead the Charge compelling is to encroach upon evokers, just as Crusader Aura can’t be a small passive movement speed raid buff without encroaching on monk. Unfortunate but it is what it is.
As for removing external utility from Arms, you know warrior is a tank class, right? I think sometimes you mistake healthy overlap for homogenization. Granted this is very subjective, but yea, I don’t agree. I also think it’s dangerous to call war-Ret a toxic damp comp when so many other comps could labelled thus, when comps that play like RMP or Jungle are not the norm. I mean what’s any Moonkin comp other than Dancing with the Stars, which lo and behold has a rogue. What are mage comps without a rogue? What is Frost compared to Fire? Certain classes make a comp more fast-paced, which is great (I’d love if rogue-Ret were viable again), but when two less aggressive classes / specs play with each other, it’s not toxic. That’s very classist of you, lol.
Besides, a lot of what made warrior-Ret tanky has already been nerfed including Rallying Cry, Intervene and Sac, and of course Ret’s off-healing. This is Ret’s best comp for the past few xpacs and Ret is very middling in 3s right now. Ret could actually be buffed here a bit without making any sorts of tradeoffs.
If Ret had enough damage or MS to not kind of need an MS partner, and enough damage to not care that its mobility and pvp effective CC is the lowest like the 3 days after 10.0.7. launch, that would be a dream come true.
Rets talk about spec features it doesn’t have because helping others until that help is dispelled doesn’t feel like compensation.
We know in pvp our only heal worth pressing in combat is LoH. Many melee and caster, if not all, heal better for longer.