How to make Ret more fun

Classes Paladin
1

This thread isn’t about viability as Ret is already plenty viable in m+ and sorta viable in PvP. It’s about design and playstyle options.

I won’t talk much about the class tree because I’ve already done that to death. There are clearly several dead talents there like Steed of Liberty which could be improved to make Ret more fun, but moving on…

Ret has three core issues: Avenging Wrath, Hammer of Wrath, and its talent tree.

Avenging Wrath
Active versions of Avenging Wrath are not competitive options against Radiant Glory. I love RG, but even I’d like to mix it up occasionally. AW is also not a real option against Crusade, especially in PvP. Consider this: Crusade is arguably better to begin with, and both AW and crit are reduced by half in PvP.

Hammer of Wrath
First, redundant mechanics. Final Verdict has a chance to reset HoW, as do talents in both hero trees. Last I checked on Herald, one HoW will eat both procs. Two, mismatched mechanics. HoW as an execute become available at 20%, but it deals bonus damage below 35%. It makes no sense to make these different values.

Three, between Wings, procs, and execute phases, HoW is available all too often, the result of which is it deals low damage and serves as a filler. The way it should work is that our other holy power generators can keep the rotation going indefinitely with no GCD gaps, and then when HoW occasionally becomes available, it has a high priority and pushes something with low priority out of the rotation.

Four, HoW’s absence from the AoE rotation makes the AoE rotation oversimplified. And five, HoW should only glow on our hotbars when it’s available due to a proc. That way we don’t have to make a WeakAura to track something like Blessing of An’she. If it’s available due to e.g. execute phase, just have it not be greyed out…

Ret talent tree
The left side of the tree should focus on HoW and Judgment, while the right side focuses on Blade of Justice and maybe a little bit more Consecration. Divine Arbiter should deal more AoE damage and Searing Light more damage to the primary target so that these are playstyle options; the same could prob be done with ES / FR as well. Divine Hammer should be made a viable talent and moved to the final row, on the left side as hammers are more thematically appropriate to the holystrike side of the tree.

Basically get rid of the ST / AoE decisions. Choices should be based as much as possible on flavor and on which rotational abilities and mechanics players prefer. Here’s a picture that outlines the gist of what I’d like to see (along with a couple other random suggestions). Please understand that it’s not comprehensive:

h ttps://imgur.com/a/2TTj39B

Conclusion
There are other issues I could have brought up like other PvP modifiers that should be toned down, or that Templar kinda crushes Herald in PvE now. But this post is already long so I’ll end it here. Ret would be a lot more fun if it had multiple viable options to modify Avenging Wrath, if Hammer of Wrath were streamlined and improved, and if the Ret tree’s holystrike / radiant theme were about playstyle rather than ST / AoE.

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2

A flat 100% damage buff would make ret twice as fun!

Jokes aside, I agree with most of your points, especially AW needing a buff for PvP specifically

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DF S2 RET is best RET
I want TWW over soon and remove those stupid hero talents and DOTs
Their existence just reduces RET’s damage
Ret dont need fkn DOT

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4

If you think they’re going to remove hero talents, I got some bad news. They’re likely to expand on it when level cap goes up.

That noted, I like Templar.

10 Likes
5

I still think Paladins need an unique class perk, like 2h+Shield, and a revamp to Auras/Seals just for that video game fantasy, visual flavor aspect, but those aside.

I think a major issue with Avenging Wrath, and all cooldowns, is that there really isn’t any underlining class fantasy or synergy within themselves.

If you oversimplify each classes’ cooldowns into:

  • Major Cooldown (~2-3 min)
  • Minor Cooldown (~30sec-1min)
  • Utility Cooldown (1min-2min)
  • “Hard Hitter” (45 second cooldown)

Paladin Cooldowns don’t have either the fantasy or the synergy to really express a skill cap.

Example of Fantasy:

Unholy Death Knight

  • Major Cooldown = Summon Abomination (Army of Undead)
  • Minor Cooldown = Dark Transformation
  • Utility Cooldown = Abomination Limb
  • “Hard Hitter” = Unholy Frenzy + Apocalypse

Aside from Infected Claws (Pet applies Festering Wound Talent), Unholy Frenzy and Apocalypse, there isn’t a lot of synergy with Army of the Dead, Dark Transformation, and Abomb Limb.

These are all powerful cooldowns, but they don’t really buff eachother up all that much. Their “fun factor” comes from being very iconic spec abilities. Summoning an army of undead, griping and slow enemies, etc…

Example of Synergy:

Demon Hunter

  • Major Cooldown = Meta
  • Minor Cooldown = Essence Break
  • Utility Cooldown = The Hunt
  • “Hard Hitter” = Eye Beam

Metamorphosis is a cool class iconic ability, that not only increases your damage, leaps you to a targeted area, and stuns mobs, but it also empowers your other abilities while active.

Combine this with Essence Break, and you have a distinct combo of cooldowns and abilities. Chaos Strike and Blade Dance become even more powerful, even more important.

Paladins: (Ignoring Radiant Glory)

  • Major Cooldown = Avenging Wrath/Crusade
  • Minor Cooldown = Execution Sentence/Final Reckoning
  • Utility Cooldown = Divine Toll
  • “Hard Hitter” = Wake of Ashes

If you look at these abilities, there’s very basic interactions between them. AW and FR increases your damage done, and ES scales off damage in that window… but aside from that, there really isn’t any complex underlining synergy.

  • Why doesn’t ES or FR directly interact with Hammer of Wrath?
  • What’s the significance of Divine Toll casting Judgement?
  • What Class Fantasy is being double downed on with Divine Toll?
  • If you want these cooldowns to be more fantasy orientated, what is even the fantasy of Paladins?
  • If you want these cooldowns to be more synergetic, what does that look like?

I think Delves kindof highlights the “Action Role Play Game” Blizzard is leaning more towards now-a-days, but in terms of Paladin cooldowns… where’s the action or role play? lol

5 Likes
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I’m not a Ret player so can’t say much other than I tried it and it was so 2-dimensional and boring I went back to Prot BEFORE the prot buffs. It need something fun like demonform.

Ret needs to be the shadowpriest of paladins with an inquisition form that looks straight out of the scarlet crusade.

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7

Why?
Because the rework was still fresh and the scaling problems didn’t caught up to it yet?
Or did you just like the specific tier of S2?

The design is loosely the same as it was in DF with Radiant Glory being the elephant in the room but it plays similarly do how it did in DF S2 anyways.

If someone like Ret DF 2, there’s no reason not to like how it plays today, except again for Radiant Glory.

Truth wake was a thing in S2 as was Expurg, what do you mean you want S2 Ret?
Ret DF S2 had dots…

The only DoT TWW added is Dawnlight and it won’t leave.

??

We’re sitting in the middle on almost all raid fight, we’re good.
I don’t think you remember how things were properly.

Are you talking about PVP?

For my M+ build AW:Might sims 0.2% less than Crusade on ST and sims better in AoE.

That wasn’t the case when I was lower in Ilvl.

Caveat aside, I understand their intent of making sure we get to have wings each time we hit with HoL or apply dawnlight…
But was it necessary to add a RNG proc and make Divine Wrath useless when you take RG?

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Shake the heavens is also considered a DoT according to the talent penitence.

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9

Somehow I don’t think this fell into his perview.

Also, isn’t it Empyrean Hammers as a whole that get amped by it?

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Yup.

/10 char

11

How to make ret more fun for pvp: stop with all the damn slows!!

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12

Agree with most of your suggestions and analysis but theres some I disagree

These are the goals I have for the ret tree and how to achieve them. Trigger warning, these are controversial (you already know whats coming)

  1. Class tree changes
  • Turn evil and its upgrades merged, made baseline
  • divine steed, cavalier merged
  • Remove forbearance
  1. Reduce hp generation
  • two charge boj removed
  • crusading strikes nerfed. Now has an attackspeed and damage penalty
  • radiant glory removed/nerfed. No longer procs wings randomly. Reduce duration of proc
  • crusade nerfed duration damage and haste granted. Or cd increased
  • Templar strikes has reduced cd. Nerf damage, becomes the true filler. Makes ret wanna be in melee more and rewards it for it.
  1. Clean up tree
  • inquisitors ire now merged with empyrean legacy where EL sits right now. Increases divine storms radius. Choice node with empyrean power
  • highlords judgement proc moved from HoW and Judgement to spenders
  • vengeful wrath baked BASELINE class wide or merged with vanguards momentum. Vanguards momentum makes HoW apply judgement and spawns a divine hammer for aoe/radiant decree aoe on impact. MAYBE, Merges HoW and Judgement but Im 50/50 on this.
  • execution sentence removed. Divine auxiliary baked into FR, no longer has a penalty, 15% buff to all spenders.
  1. Hammer of wrath
  • either remove the HoW procs from the hero spec trees, or remove it from FV.
  • Heavily buff its damage, make it true execution
    -HoW has to become priority generator at 35%.
  1. BoJ

-stop making boj tier sets. Thanks

  1. My personal pipe dreams: capstones turned into active spells
  • Divine arbiter: take the mantle of the divine arbiter for X seconds, all damage becomes holystrike, is increased by X%, ignores armor and causes your attacks to slow the target for x seconds and reduce their healing done ans taken by 35% for the duration
  • Searing crusader: take the mantle of the searing crusader for x seconds, causing all your attacks to become radiant, cleave and to deal x% extra damage as over time, further attacking adds to the debuff. When searing crusader ends, targets explode one more time based on damage taken during the entire window
13

Ret is fun right meow. Templar’s flow needs work, however herald is gtg, just needs buffed again.
Todays ret is 10000x better than it was b4.

5 Likes
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Fun is subjective and to me ans others it isnt fun and needs serious changes

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What, you want some version of previous gameplay? God how aweful. Or some slow, hyper complex, massively bloated spec that only you “and others” can play?
Yea, no.

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16

Not really, but it would be kindof nice to have a Paladin spec with more substance outside of the WoA window.

So much is crammed into that 3 GCD window, it makes nothing feel inherently good in itself.

Class:

  1. Lacking Visuals and Animations (this is a video game)
  2. Lack of Auras and Seals fantasy/flavor
  3. Lack of offensive Blessings (do a Delve, how often do you press BoSac or BoP?)
    • There’s no fantasy/fun outside of “abilities do Holy Damage”
  4. Divine Steed still feels out of place in WoW
    • Going from mob to mob, pack to pack is just a random attack, there’s no flow state
  5. Divine Toll is extremely unimaginative
  6. Class Tree lacks customization due to limited talents, this is due to there being too many “mandatory” talents still
    • IE: Holy Ageis and Obduracy and Sanctified Plates all doing the same thing

Ret:

  1. Dead Choice nodes
    • Final Verdict vs Justicar’s Vengeance
    • Tempest of the Lightbringer vs Inquisitor’s Ire
    • Imp Blade of Justice vs Holy Blade
    • Art of War vs Righteous Cause
    • Boundless Judgement vs Imp Judgement
    • Vangaurd’s Momentum vs Sanctify

What’s the point of having choice nodes, when they aren’t even choices?
This is the perfect scenario for a sandbox Holyfire build, nothing of the current playstyle needs to change if they add in purposeful synergetic talents. (IE: Increases Holyfire damage taken, etc…)

  1. Unimaginative Cap Stones
    • Divine Arbiter
    • Searing Light
    • Final Reckoning
    • Hammer of Light
    • Light’s Deliverance
    • Wake of Ashes
    • Divine Toll

Press button → instantly deal XYZ AoE damage to mobs in front of you…zzzzzzzzzzz

1 Like
17

saying ret was hyper complex when it legit was just lining up 3 cds at the end of shadowlands is laughable

do you want the spec to play the game for you? we shouldnt be putting all our eggs into wake of ashes making it one of the most bloated abilities in the game

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18

Compared to a version my literal dog can play? What Im asking is return to normalcy not this handholding version with nigh zero skill expression. Any fotm reroller can pick up ret and do the rotarion just fine the same as long time mains because there barrier to entry is literally non existant

Things like pressing avenging wrath sac and crusader strike are non issues and yet you are perfecttly ok with this autopilot spec

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19

I’d argue that should be somewhat of a loose goal for all specs.
If the goal is to see the game as a whole grow, I don’t think making things more complex and convoluted than they already are is a viable avenue.

Maybe there’s few subtilties to Ret DPS but the Raid data doesn’t show that there’s no variation.

If it was that easy there wouldn’t be such a spread.

What you have to understand, specifically for Christtell, is that she see Ret almost exclusively through the PVP prism.

She doesn’t really experience PVE Ret, she’s done no keys and done the raid on normal once.

All her feedbacks come from a place where Ret is heavily watered down.
So it comes as no surprises that she would dislike the current “design” as it is genuinely bad for PVP at the moment because of the PVP specific modifiers applied to some abilities.

It’s not to say that Ret design is perfect, some aspect are to this day very incongruent with each others and Zaim generally makes a good case for it.

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20

There has to be a balance.

Im not asking for seal twisting to come back. My suggestions are mostly mechanical. Wanting spells to not longer be automatically pressed for me is nothing out of the ordinary.

Yes I want a slower, more satisfying ret gameplay where spenders feel like your main move and not just spamming them because you can. (the rotation has gotten so fast that, I am dropping spenders faster than the hammerfall icd leading to no empyrean hammers dropping if I do back to back ultra hasted fvs).

Come on I cant be the only person seeing these issues. Just because ret ia pve viable right now cant lead you all to believe the spec is the best its ever been and that the reworks fixed the spec.

4 Likes