The Horde is not an autonomous entity. It feels like its existence is completely subjected to the whim of the Alliance. It can’t rule itself : if left unchecked for 5 minutes, it will put a psychotic, genocidal tyrant in power, and white knights from the Alliance will have to come help overthrow him/her. Red virtually can’t win any significant battle against Blue - its few “victories” can only be achieved through treachery and war crimes. And when this happens, the Alliance inevitably retaliates, but with way higher moral standards : see how the Horde burned Teldrassil with all its civilians inside, and the Alliance responded by successfully laying siege to UC, but ended up evacuating the Forsaken civilians because the big bad Warchief had decided to blight the capital ?
The Horde’s situation is always the following : it fights the Alliance, but it can’t win under normal circumstances so it does something really bad like dropping a mana bomb, then the Alliance says “Alright kids that’s enough” and wins the war, delivers some forgive-but-no-forget speech, and graciously allows the Horde to keep existing so it can atone for its sins. The Horde is trapped in an eternal narrative purgatory.
Can we please stop that ? When will the Horde be self-sufficient and self-governing ? When will it stop having the Alliance to thank for even existing ? When will it run out of sins to atone for ? When will it stop having its main characters villain-batted and killed and/or sent to the Maw ? Jeez.
Yeah. I don’t know what they’ve been doing with horde lore since the end of legion. They’ve just stuffed so many horde characters through a meat grinder that we don’t have a whole lot left, and the ones we do have just don’t have a whole lot of development.
We absolutely and unironically just need an entire expansion pack building up new horde characters and putting them in lasting positions that players interact with through quests in an expansion.
Teldrassil was the Horde sneaking into Darkshore when the Kaldorei military was away and mass burning civilians alive. Undercity was the Horde losing and blighting the city so that the Alliance couldn’t claim it, like a frustrated kid breaking up his toy so that the other kid he has to give it to can’t play with it. None of those 2 events were Horde victories.
Right now the Alliance has more presence in Kalimdor than the Horde has in EK.
(Ashenvale, yes. The Horde def should’ve left the place. But the Exploring Kalimdor book’s sole purpose was to justify the map being frozen in the Cata era.)
The Horde breaking their own toy rather than letting the Alliance have it gives them a measure of agency in how they “lose”.
They turned an Alliance victory to a defeat in one move. There is some value in that, Alliance has never had that luxury.
But if you feel so strongly about it which alliance city and population do you want the Horde to massacre next for the Horde victory you desire and what loss are you ready to give when the Alliance parity arrives?
Because there has to be a response.
I think it comes down to honorable victories as opposed to being straight up war criminals. The Horde certainly has victories, but they are propped up in a way that makes them seem heinous and underhanded, leaving the Horde PC feeling dirty and ashamed (unless you play a character that vibes with that, no shade intended.)
Add to the fact that you are essentially forced to be a patsy to progress in your respective storyline, and then berated by the Alliance for doing the only thing you could have done because that was literally your only option.
For those of us that play characters that embody the original spirit of the Horde, these don’t feel like victories they feel like going through the motions and it doesn’t feel like a win at all.
I wouldn’t say that. I’d say the Battle for Lordaeron was military a victory for the Alliance (because, well, they won the battle and successfully sieged UC) but it couldn’t benefit from this victory. The Horde certainly did lose though, both the battle and when it comes to the aftermaths.
What ? I don’t want that. I want the Horde to stop doing that. I’d like the Horde to be successful in things like territorial disputes, actual battlefronts, domestic policy issues, etc. I’d like it to be depicted as a competent, serious opponent for the Alliance.
I mean seriously. We had our forces stationed in Dazar’alor and somehow we let the Alliance sneak in and murder Rastakhan. Half the Golden Fleet has been destroyed because we never noticed bombs had been set on the freaking ships. How is that possible ?
I’m all for the Alliance winning too. It’s a matter of… balance. And narrative treatment.
That’s not a victory, that’s a genocide that will stain the Horde forever.
They didn’t. The Horde (especially the Forsaken) certainly didn’t want to lure the Alliance to Undercity and leave it blighted. Only Sylvanas wanted that, as part of her grand scheme - and, by the way, so was what happened at Teldrassil.
As per the cata zones i see most of lordaeron gone, Gilneas conquered, ashenvale on fire up to the borders of darkshore. Theramore gone, southshore gone and if its not the Horde it was nature that destroyed Alliance holdings.
Honestly besides the dwarves I struggle to think what the Alliance has left… I mean sure I get told later that I won but in the game itself? I don’t see much evidence of it. Its just all ashes and ruin as far as the eye could see.
Anyway back to my question. What Alliance city, population or territory would you like to conquer and destroy to give the Horde their break?
Blizzard decided to narratively blame the villain Horde thing on the Warchief position, which was abolished in favor of the Horde Council. So I think we’re in the clear.
Yup. You hit the nail on the head. Most of us who played horde don’t wanna play villain sim. That was never the initial appeal. Give that option to people who want it on both sides tho.
technical…the wot was a big horde win, the tactic was dirty, right, and it was an display of war criminals without any reason and painted/framed the horde in an blackest of black light, but that means not that the wot was not a win for the Horde.
Posted this in general. Although not sure if i should have posted in this thread on the Story Forum because of what the thread posting rules stated
I think that’s just bad story telling. Blizzard is seems to really hate the idea of players identifying and playing as the ‘bad guy’ whatever that means.
I found it really strange i couldn’t side with Garossh in Cata/MoP instead the game wanted me to hate him, someone whose motives and action are justifiable.
So they write faction leaders that are unrealistically psycho like sylvanas & jailer who are evil because… Being evil???
Zul’Jin is another tragic example. He went from a understandable villain with understandable motives, then proceeded to turn him into a cartoon villain and retroactively now are doing it with Arthas as well as Sylvanas.
