I will help him out since I’m the one who started that bug report.
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Thank you for making the point I’ve been making over and over: WCL isn’t a “tool” and it isn’t used as such. It’s a mini game. I don’t pay $15 a month to play WCL or any other smarmy little operation that slides its way into WoW. WCL should make their own game so you can go play that.
Any deaf person will tell you no. To qualify as sound, vibrations must travel to the auditory nerve which in turns carries an electrical signal to the brain. If there’s no one there to interpret sound waves, then of course there’s no sound. Just vibrations.
Just throwing that out there.
It’s both. Why do you think it has to be one or the other?
And it’s fine that you feel that way, and grats if you are able to find a guild that fits what you want and doesn’t care about logs. They are out there.
But most successful raiding guilds run logs and play the minigame, and that’s a big reason why they are successful, because they have players that care about their performance. And being in one of those guilds means playing the game by WCL’s rules.
I mean that’s your opinion.
I don’t believe that tonking your pet on illidan, or council as an example, is a DPS loss compared to having to not only re-buff your pet yourself, but have your paladins re-buff your pet after it dies. There may be instances where it’s a DPS loss, but the longer fights get, the more valuable tonk is.
There’s no chance that 2 GCD’s are worth more than those buffs being saved.
I’m for changes that fix abused mechanics that were never the intention of the developers, clever use of game mechanics etc with a previous expansion’s random items.
I don’t mind chicken being fixed, I just think that with consistency in mind that things like Tonk should also be fixed. You can disagree with me all you want, but you cannot in good faith suggest that Tonk was implemented so that you could save the buffs on your pet in TBC or TBCC raids, or was an intended byproduct of this toy for raids.
Do you disagree with the purpose to which Tonk was created? Do you think that it was meant for raiding?
Its a DPS GAIN over having to cast revive pet. Have a paladin cast blessings on it again. Beleiving that using a tonk to abuse the pet mechanic is a dps loss of 2 GCD is laughable.
As how classic works nothing pre bc should work in tbc raids. Chickens are broken because it is a flat % increase not a rating increase. Tonks are broken because you instantly dismiss your pet and can resummon it quickly at full health with little downtime.
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You think people rebuff pets if they die??? What raid you in?
Using a tonk is a dps loss over bringing him back, you could argue that if the tonk made him not die its not a loss.
I cant say its purpose as i didnt develop the game, you could argue that we have been using tonks since Phase 1, if blizzard or WCL didnt approve of it why havent they changed it yet?
Chickens were widely used starting in phase 2 and nerfed 3 weeks into Phase 3, yet tonks are still unchanged?
Would you consider that Blizzard knowing about it and not changing it means they dont see anything wrong with it? They could easily make it so you cant tonk in combat and that would be the end and a rather simple fix, yet they havent, why not?
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We’re well beyond the point of realizing WCL isn’t used as a tool. Unless, of course, you’re one of those players that doesn’t know when your buffs need refreshed, or how to use a swing timer, or how to play your class. “It’s a tool,” is just something people say to make themselves feel better.
Arguing this with a parse worshiper is totally pointless, though. It’s like trying to talk sense into someone who hangs on every word of a streamer, follows them from server to server, gives them money and watches their live feed 24/7.
And again, we’ve already concluded that it isn’t about how well you do, but how well you look. No one thinking clearly would call that playing “good.” Using chickens could increase your dps, but you won’t use them. Now, supposedly, using Mr. Pinchy invalidates logs (I have not personally confirmed this).
WCL invalidated logs using traces of Silithyst and soul revival and several other things that pretty much anyone can use. Items that improve your performance. If WCL invalidated logs using food buffs you’d stop doing that, too. How gestapo do they have to get before people stop paying attention to their “rules”?
Intentionally playing so your performance is worse doesn’t make a “good” guild. Quite the opposite. It’s absurd to claim otherwise. But yeah, there’s that whole “if a tree falls in the forest” thing and how would you and your crew prove to the world how awesome you are without it? Here’s the thing, though, not as many people as you think care or even notice you or your guild.
WCL caters to insecure, adolescent males and there’s plenty of those to go around.
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No hunter is going to stop during a council fight to cast revive pet. The majority of boss fights are like that. Imagine stopping to cast revive pet on Illidan.
Like elixir of the mongoose? FAP? Scarab brooch? Elixir of demonslaying? And on and on . . .
You’d better get with WCL, that list is pretty long.
Sounds like you just hate competition. But a lot of players find it fun.
Imagine some streamer, say, Asmongold, inserting his own little mini game of “competency” into WoW. Imagine this mini game has its own set of rules which very often have nothing to do with measuring how good you are, and in some cases even contradict the very rules of WoW itself. Now imagine everyone drooling all over themselves “competing” for high rankings in this “competition.” Imagine being told you don’t like “competition” because you point out how absolutely stupid the whole thing is.
There ya’ go.
Damage meters have been in the game since the beginning. I think Blizzard put a combat log in the game for that reason. WCL is just an expansion of that, with an online component.
And yes, since the beginning, there have been players like you who didn’t like them. Competition inevitably creates winners and losers. And losers don’t like being publicly displayed as losers. But for the winners, it’s fun. That’s just how competition works.
The Delta for Performance in TBC is abit tricky
Some of it is skill
some of it is circumstance (a prefered dps group, ideal raid comp)
some of it is “want to” (Chicken stacking, MCing mobs for cheeky debuffs, healing through avoidable dmg)
with all this in mind the greatest performance delta exists for
#1 Fury Warriors
#2 Combat Rogues
#3 Feral Druids (its actually feral #2 but ill give my reasons for this)
#4 Ret Paladins
#5 BM Hunters
Then there are some factors across the board that skew heavy, Most Ret Paladins and Rogues are not in a “prefered melee group” virtually every Feral Druid is in a “prefered melee group” just like enhance the prefered being: 2x BM, 1x Fury, 1x Enhance, 1x Feral.
While BM is certainly the hardest ranged to play no doubt, it is certainly no the most difficult overall, atleast in terms of performance delta’s. Though this will change abit in Bm hunters favor after the 15th as Melee Delta should shrink for all due to chickens being removed (the delta caused because of no chickens, 1-2 chickens and 5 chickens will go away)
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If you’re going to make the claim that 2 GCD’s are worse than reviving your pet and having your pet rebuffed is a DPS loss compared to 2 GCD’s on a tonk/summon, then I don’t know why you would bother having a pet out at all.
I play a ret paladin and use pally power, yes I rebuff pets that are resummoned mid-fight, costing me a GCD. The other 2 paladins in my raid also rebuff pets when they die and are revived costing us GCDs.
You’re literally making stuff up here. How is the loss of your pet and not tonking an increase in your DPS?
Because you can’t say for sure that the developers didn’t intend for steam tonk to be used for this purpose, you’re just going to base your entire argument on the incredibly slim chance that the use was intended, versus their established precedent of removing ways of bypassing encounter design?
I absolutely do not think that Blizzard is EAGER to make changes to things in TBCC. I think they are waiting for the community to provide input and decide what their priorities are by way of changes, anywhere from nerfing vanilla items, ‘fixing’ their interactions, or removing them from working in certain instances/scenarios.
You see this as folks clamoring for ‘revenge’ for chickens being removed, other people see it as maintaining consistency across decisions. I can understand that this would negatively affect your gameplay, and for that I’m sorry - but in the end it’s not up to you to decide what blizzards ‘standards’ are around consistency in raid design, and legacy item usage to negate mechanics via any method they deem unintended.
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No you’re just simply being petty.
Why are you here posting about tonks? Why not make a thread fixing pet interactions with bosses and mechanics??
You aren’t doing that because your chicken was nerfed, and I’m sorry no one is going to realistically say tonks are as bad as a 4 minute lust, they just aren’t even in the same universe.
Blizzard and WCL aren’t going to touch tonks.
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I’ll repeat this again because I guess you didn’t read it.
You see this as folks clamoring for ‘revenge’ for chickens being removed, other people see it as maintaining consistency across decisions. I can understand that this would negatively affect your gameplay, and for that I’m sorry - but in the end it’s not up to you to decide what blizzards ‘standards’ are around consistency in raid design, and legacy item usage to negate mechanics via any method they deem unintended.
You also made a sweeping authoritative statement that using tonks is a DPS loss, but when called to task to prove your ‘fact’ and provided with counter evidence you changed the subject.
I’m going to assume that I’ve moved your cheese on this one, that you are conceding that you were in error, and realigned your views to favor tonks as being a net increase in dps to both the hunter and the raid as a whole, reducing the overall kill time of a boss, and therefore raising all DPS. That being the case, please refer to the community request to maintain consistency across ‘fixes’ and ‘nerfs’ that follow the original encounter design intentions of TBC as they pertain to TBCC.
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I have already responded and answered stuff like this above maybe you can’t read?
Also wrong you’re going to have to assume that for example the four times I used it and black Temple this week my pet was always going to die… there are plenty of times where I use it in a healer says man I was just giving your guy a full heal so I basically used it for nothing and lowered my damage.
Your anecdotal scenarios are meaningless when determining if something is in most situations a DPS increase or decrease when being used.
When I revealed to you the consequences of having to revive your pet and rebuff it, you ignored that information. You are not having a discussion in good faith, as you are unwilling to accept alternate facts outside of your own experience.
We are discussing the impact of tonk when it comes to extremely high level play, and how parse culture encourages tonk to bypass encounter design in order to achieve the highest possible DPS for the entire raid.
You did not respond directly to what I said, you evaded.
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Because I had already responded to the exact same question previously and I said that if the pet was going to die it’s a DPS increase… I’m not sure how many times you need me to respond to the same question?
At the end of the day your stance on it is irrelevant I am still going to use it just like every other Hunter…
Stay mad
Ah, yes, the tried and true ‘u mad’, a sign that you’ve won the debate. I am humbled.
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I mean ultimately there’s nothing going to come of this so yes further debating this is pretty pointless you have no say on how the game is
In fact the game designers who made TBC don’t even work for blizzard anymore.
Nothing is being used in a way blizzard obviously is against until they change it. You crying and pouting is irrelevant to everyone until blizzard changes their stance on how the item works it’s safe to say they don’t care about it or how it interacts with our pets.
You are more than welcome to go make a thread about it to vent your frustration on how pets are living. I’m sure blizzard will love your viewpoint and definitely change the items interaction because of you.