Are people going to take DPS Ferals now or?

[Fasc-atiesh]

@Potionseler-grobbulus

My god you just cant get it wrapped around your head that only a small % of feral parses are from feral dps mains.

…who the hell cares?!?

There’s more than enough Feral DPS parses to show the differences in preparation, gear, skill, effort, and overall raid performance to make these comparisons.

IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT WARRIORS OUTNUMBER US

@Potionseler-grobbulus

If it’s easier to parse >90% cat than it is >70% warrior (because a much higher percentage of warriors are dps mains than feral druids, and because warrior parses are much more competitive in general), then cat has a better ratio of Effort->DPS.

/headdesk

This is ludicrous and not based on any kind of reality whatsoever.

10th Percentile to 99th Percentile:

• Feral: 198.8 to 1,122.46
• Fury: 324.6 to 1,505.06

The worst of the worst Warriors playing Fury start out ~130 DPS ahead of the worst of the worst Druids playing Feral. This scales alllllll the way up to the best of the best Warriors playing Fury ending up just shy of 400 DPS ahead of the best of the best Druids playing Feral.

This means, unequivocally, that you get far more raw DPS, point for point, for less effort, on a Fury Warrior, than you do on a Feral Druid.

We can map out the curve if you like to show skill floors and ceilings, but the fact that Fury Warriors only climb further and further away from the Feral Druid at every threshold is sufficient indication that if you have a player DPSing and trying to improve their output, 1% increased Effort on a Warrior flatly enjoys a bigger rate of return than 1% increased Effort on a Druid. Period.

We don’t need another 10k+ Feral parses to show otherwise.

@Potionseler-grobbulus

Also you think you’re better than all your raid’s warrior/rogues because you can outdps them but have you considered maybe Feral is just a much easier class to parse with? That maybe it’s not you that’s good, but your spec?

If Feral were easy to parse with we’d see a lopsided curve in terms of output at each percentile. That is to say, the difference in raw output between 90th and 80th, and 80th and 70th, shouldn’t be very big because everyone is doing the same easy thing together. That’s not the case, with any class, so you have no grounds to try to argue this.

Further, if Feral were so capable of carrying people if played immaculately well, we would see Feral much higher on the list at the 95th Percentile and higher, BUT IT ISN’T

When you can’t explain the data so you must rely upon an unsupported, unsubstantiated theory that everyone doing DPS in Cat is just… bad… no one should take you seriously.

[Alethos-sulfuras]

@Potionseler-grobbulus

My god you just cant get it wrapped around your head that only a small % of feral parses are from feral dps mains

For example, I have a 90 cat parse on maiden in tank gear. But at least I was in cat the entire time.

Probably half of cat parses are people who were both cat and bear at times for a boss.

Alternatively, it’s damn hard to parse as a bear because people cheese the parses by cat weaving.

[Potionseler-grobbulus]

Just look at how many of the lower feral parses aren’t powershifting, are in bear gear, or have a bunch of time spent in bear form. Literally anything than just a table that lumps all the bear and cat players together.
But whatever, just keep thinking you’re a really good cat player by coincidence if you want to. I still stand by my original statement which you quoted without the most important line: “when they’re played by an actual cat player and not a pure-bear main”.

[Daswings-moon-guard (Daswings)]

Cat dps is very competitive on the charts, but even as a druid main I dont like cat dps. They have no aoe DPS which even warriors have some i think and also you have to try hard to even perform average DPS while other classes have easier rotations so they are less likely to suck.

[Potionseler-grobbulus]

@Alethos-sulfuras

Alternatively, it’s damn hard to parse as a bear because people cheese the parses by cat weaving.

Exactly. Bear parses are too high on average and cat parses are too low on average because the two forms can be used in the same parse, but WC logs will only count your parse as the one it deems “primary”. Ive gotten so many great bear parses when I was actually catting and so many horrible cat parses when I had spent 60% of the fight in bear.
It doesn’t mean most bear players suck cause they parse low, and it doesnt mean most cat players are good because they pare high. It means that WClogs is a flat out flawed way to measure either spec.

[Potionseler-grobbulus]

@Fasc-atiesh

This is ludicrous and not based on any kind of reality whatsoever.

Lemme ask you this one question Fasc:
Do you think it’s just as difficult to parse 90 as cat as it is to parse 90 as warrior? Or do you think that it’s easier to parse as cat. Simple question. No need for another essay.

[Flôwers-area-52 (Flôwers)]

i played kitty dps in tbc up until a month before wrath: i was usually in the top 5 damage done. also, my guild was fine with me going cat. it’s not like tbc is really hard or something. i guess in this day in age with min/maxers ruining everything, cats will be benched. it wasn’t like that in vanilla though, people were a lot less up tight back then.

[Potionseler-grobbulus]

@Flôwers-area-52

i guess in this day in age with min/maxers ruining everything, cats will be benched.

No not really. Cats will be fine in TBC Classic. This thread was made by a rogue who didn’t understand what the energy change was even about.

[Notglinda-pagle]

@Fasc-atiesh

If you pulled 846 DPS on Gruul, which places you between the 80th and 90th percentile for Feral Druids.

Well, if you ignore the fact he died.

[Potionseler-grobbulus]

@Notglinda-pagle

Well, if you ignore the fact he died.

Even when I’m alive i’m not that good. It took me like 8 seconds just to find where my innervate target was cause I have 0 environmental awareness. I mess up my weaponswaps. I mess up my rotation and overwrite my Rips. But Fasc would have you believe I’m some super good pro cat if I was able to sustain that for 3.5 mins while refusing to consider the idea that most cat parses are from bear players.

[Notglinda-pagle]

@Potionseler-grobbulus

the idea that most cat parses are from bear players

lol

[Fasc-atiesh]

@Potionseler-grobbulus

Just look at how many of the lower feral parses aren’t powershifting, are in bear gear, or have a bunch of time spent in bear form.

…have you seen what sub-50% Warriors are wearing? Their spec? Their lack of consumables?

THIS IS ALL THE SAME FOR EVERY SPEC

@Potionseler-grobbulus

But whatever, just keep thinking you’re a really good cat player by coincidence if you want to.

Holy crap… I never said I was amazing. I said that if I beat other melee DPS it is because I out-gear them and/or out-play them, not because I’m Feral.

@Alethos-sulfuras

I have a 90 cat parse on maiden in tank gear

Given the kind of gear the Bear and Cat share, notably Tier 4 gear and even weapons, there’s not actually a ton of daylight between the two.

@Potionseler-grobbulus

I still stand by my original statement which you quoted without the most important line: “when they’re played by an actual cat player and not a pure-bear main”.

This is irrelevant nonsense. Your statement isn’t suddenly accurate because you discount all the shoddy players, because I can discount all the shoddy Fury Warriors, Combat Rogues, etc, just as easily.

@Potionseler-grobbulus

Do you think it’s just as difficult to parse 90 as cat as it is to parse 90 as warrior?

Yes, or rather, neither are “difficult” and are mostly determined by gear, consumables, and overall raid performance.

If you show up to a raid in 95% of your BiS gear, fully enchanted, consumables ready, and have all the nuances ready and managed for that fight, you’ll parse well as literally any spec provided the rest of your raid isn’t woefully incompetent and you don’t get yourself killed early. So if you want a >90th Percentile Parse, you just need to do the above and you’re in.

The only reason I didn’t have more 99’s in Naxxramas is because I didn’t bother to do all of this and I just let World Buffs carry me and the rest of the raid. Plus, I’m risk averse so I didn’t like shedding too much EH to pull a slightly higher chance at a bigger parse.

@Notglinda-pagle

Well, if you ignore the fact he died.

Yeah, which made his comments of “I’m not that good!!” sort of hilarious given pulling those kinds of numbers across a lengthy fight that hates melee all the more silly. I don’t think he understands how DPS works in the slightest.

[Growlingbear-earthfury]

@Fasc-atiesh

Based on all the old threads and forums people dredged up to try to prove how integral powershifting was

I don’t think that’s going to be accurate to the whole of the base at the time. People “including myself” weren’t playing optimal or even close to it back then.

[Fasc-atiesh]

Oh I agree, which is why I found those “see see!! people were nigh experts at powershifting back in TBC!!” threads and posts to be just silly as can be. Even in the EJ threads there was some skepticism as to whether or not you should even bother since the only practical location for most Ferals was OTing.

Powershifting was by no means widespread or well known in TBC, and even among those that did know about it, many scoffed at the risk/reward and didn’t bother. Then Wrath came out and obliterated it entirely.

[Growlingbear-earthfury]

@Fasc-atiesh

Oh I agree

I have read some powershifting post from back then but none of them ever included wolfshead helm.

[Fasc-atiesh]

EJ threads did, but that’s about it.

[Beastfury-anathema]

@Fasc-atiesh

Oh I agree, which is why I found those “see see!! people were nigh experts at powershifting back in TBC!!” threads and posts to be just silly as can be. Even in the EJ threads there was some skepticism as to whether or not you should even bother since the only practical location for most Ferals was OTing.

Powershifting was by no means widespread or well known in TBC, and even among those that did know about it, many scoffed at the risk/reward and didn’t bother. Then Wrath came out and obliterated it entirely.

No. I’ll break this down really slowly for you:

• “They said it was unintentional” - This means that Blizzard didn’t make the change with Feral Druids in mind, nothing more.
• “They just never changed it” - This means that despite being informed it changed, they didn’t bother to revert it or create a workaround for Feral Druids
• Blizzard doesn’t support powershifting and never has, hence them spending zero effort to reverse the effects of something that only unintentionally changed for powershifting focused Druids
• THEREFORE - “unintended” means explicitly that it was a surprise, but not an unwanted surprise, and thus not a bug.

[Synsha-sargeras]

Are they going to be taken to speed clears and fully min/maxed raid groups? No probably not. Are they going to be taken to normal raid groups? Yes probably. All about finding the right guild for you.

If you’re looking for a sweaty min/max raid group… then you should already know the answer to this question.

Edit: and no… the fix wasn’t a waste of time… Something doesn’t have to change what the 1-5% does in order to be considered worthwhile. I personally look forward to this being implemented.

@Fasc-atiesh

Powershifting was by no means widespread or well known in TBC, and even among those that did know about it, many scoffed at the risk/reward and didn’t bother. Then Wrath came out and obliterated it entirely.

Um… I doubt the validity of this statement. Heck I was a complete noob in TBC (the expac I started playing), didn’t even hit max, and even I knew powershifting was a thing.

[Beastfury-anathema]

@Synsha-sargeras

Um… I doubt the validity of this statement. Heck I was a complete noob in TBC (the expac I started playing), didn’t even hit max, and even I knew powershifting was a thing.

Just be clear he stated that powershifting was not supported by blizzard as a fact, so anything he says is well … might not be exactly true

[Fasc-atiesh]

@Synsha-sargeras

Um… I doubt the validity of this statement. Heck I was a complete noob in TBC (the expac I started playing), didn’t even hit max, and even I knew powershifting was a thing.

This doesn’t negate my point though. See:

Current Feral Energy Mechanics Not Accurate to TBC (Links)

I’ve spent some time snooping around and looking at the old information strewn about the internet to help confirm or deny my suspicions, and I think I found several sources that definitively shows that the current implementation of energy that we have is actually not true to TBC and should be altered to more closely resemble how energy actually worked in 2.4.3, the patch that TBC Classic is being modeled around. Specifically you’ll be looking at post #20 on page 1 of this ElitestJerks feral thr…

If you look at any of the links Zipzo provided in that old thread, you’ll see more than a few posts by people disregarding the usefulness, or simply doubting the usefulness, of powershifting. Still others misunderstand how or why it worked certain ways even during TBC’s lifetime.

Powershifting was a known thing, but it wasn’t a widely known thing. If you were the kind of person to crawl forums and read EJ and similar, you probably knew about it as a DPS method. Also note that powershifting refers to both the specific usage for DPS and the macros so many of us had just for general PvP use. I had a cancelform macro in Vanilla, but I never really bothered with trying to utilize Wolfshead Helm or Furor for DPS until TBC after reading a lot of the EJ stuff.

Sorta muddies the waters when looking through old stuff when some talk about powershifting for DPS and others talk about just using shifting to break roots/snares instantly.