Not looking forward to it that much. The only one I’m looking forward to is whatever they create for the Year of the Tiger.
As i said before (either here or somewhere), nobody has a problem with them just making money. They can just sell a game and nobody would complain about it. It’s only a problem if they are being greedy with like MTX and such. And yes, it is a problem in this video gaming industry. It’s a bigger problem to defend it.
Sometimes called the “either-or” fallacy, a false dilemma is a logical fallacy that presents only two options or sides when there are many options or sides. Essentially, a false dilemma presents a “black and white” kind of thinking when there are actually many shades of gray.
How just playing the game means i support the microtransactions? Why you must think that just playing the game you mean you support this, that and other thing? Like seriously? Is that where we at? We are essentially asking people to leave gaming if they hate microtransactions? Don’t you realize this sentiment is anti-gamer? 
Are they really optional as you guys keep on saying over and over again? If it’s actually optional, do i get a choice to not see them in games? Do i actually get the choice to play the game without microtransactions? Without going like “Oh you can just not look or you can just not buy–” Do i get a choice to play the game without microtransactions?
Do i get an actual option where i turn off the MTX, have MTX be regular game items to earn and i can earn them by just playing the game? (And not the whole “Turn gold into balance, click a menu to go to a store, it would just be like the game” defense.)
You’re now bringing Videos into the mix here? 
Alright, looking at Youtube Gaming, i don’t see much of WoW on there. Maybe you’re talking about Twitch here. 
There we go. WoW’s on #9, sitting dainty with 74.4K views. So for a game that possibly has hundred thousands or possibly millions of players and it’s made by one of the biggest companies on the planet, it’s sitting #9. It’s nothing bad, infact that’s great for a game this old to come back into relevance.
But one might be thinking, does Viewership/Relevance equality quality game? It just means it’s relevant. In comparison to the other games i’ve shown here, those are not the same thing. This is the same defense as “High sales = High quality”. It never applies regardless the case.
Except, they still do. But apparently you think they don’t. This black and white thinking here.
Again, people buying the game isn’t the same thing as Subs. Can i have a source to back this claim up here that people who bought SL or even pre-ordered it are still playing it?
Yeah, GTA SA’s $200 million back in 2004 is insignificant. Sure…
Are you discounting the possibly that there’s lazy patches in WoW that is subtanistiveless or don’t add a ton of quality content?
Everything makes money. What’s your point?
“So once again, i have to make being against microtransactions a bad awful thing to do, because think of the corporations.”…
Again, why do you care about this? Why are you defending microtransactions? Why you want them to have more money? Like seriously, why? You think it makes them more creative or something?.. or what?
I did, i showed you evidence, you’re just denying it at this point.
Says the person who is being anti-gamer here to protect a corporation and it’s microtransactions while making the same arguments as silly people on the GD that uses the “either/or” fallacy.
I’m still awaiting a giant tree to ride in to the sunset…
Ok… you clearly don’t understand or maybe I wasn’t clear… the money they bring in NOW is insignificant. The games you listed AREN’T relevant anymore. They have a small, niche community that has maintained the game and brings in hardly any money. That’s nice but it’s not relevant.
WoW is still a game with a full development team and not a skeleton crew. The team that WoW has is at least double (if not quadruple… I can’t remember the exact quote but it’s in the WoW Diary by John Staats). Can you say that about ANY of the games you listed? L4D has next to no development team left and generates no money. GTA has a minimum development team and generates very little (albeit still impressive for a game it’s age). Every game you listed has next to no development team and generates no money thus they’re hanging on by a thread. If that’s what you want for WoW then you can screw off.
Name one that isn’t the SELFIE patch. Every major content patch has provided something new, whether it’s a dungeon, raid, or zone other than the SELFIE patch.
I am all for the cash shop specifically in WoW. I benefit from the cash shop and can use my gold to get free Blizzard games. Conversely, I enjoy buying mounts because I already have a to do list of mount farming that’ll easily occupy a decade of my time (and if you bother to check my collection, I already have an impressive mount collection) and don’t need more mounts in game than they already are introducing. It’s a pretty simple example of diminishing returns when you throw 80+ mounts in all at once, missing one or two for the store ain’t a big deal.
You can call me anti-gamer all you want. I understand how money works and that you need it to keep a product going. I don’t want a map pack every 5 years (or whatever L4D2’s update schedule has been) and a bunch of minor bug fixes.
This might be my first store mount if it’s a flying Ox.
Well how do you know how much money they bring in? I tried looking for how much money it brings in for SA and it keeps going back to V.
We can go to Steam charts, make a math equation and all that and go by the future, but that’s gonna change and it’s taking into account of possible sales here and there.
Can you prove that WoW has a full development team here? I never said it’s a skeleton crew, but you’re making all this hubbub about “WoW is a full development team here! all the other games are just running on skeleton crews!” Plus didn’t the devolpment teams got split or decreased over the years, having the teams work on other projects, or leave the company?
Mind giving us proof that it’s making no money? It’s still clearly being played and it’s still being sold for money.
Or … let me guess, it’s not making all of the money, is it? Because that’s what it comes down to, this black and white thinking that corporations do that either they have to make all the money or it’s worth less then nothing.
GTA SA is doing way better then GTA 5 in terms of reviews on Steam.
While GTA 5 makes a butt-load of cash, it’s to the detriment of the company’s game output as well the quality of the game itself where Single-player gets no DLC content, all the while Online gets all the free content, with it’s pay real money for fake money. Relevance or sales does not equate quality here.
You keep on saying “their hanging on by a thread”, but you’re not giving us evidence or linking any sources saying that. Again, where did you get your sources that they are “hanging by a thread” as you say. And why you only apply this to other games and not WoW? isn’t the fact their isn’t even a sub count means their hanging by a thread by your own logic?
Yeah, how dare i want my favorite mmo and games to be better then this. How dare i want to have quality content just by selling a game and not being greedy with it. How dare i not think they should make more money and thin corperations are not my friend. How dare i be against microtransactions in an age where it’s normalized thanks to people taking corporation’s word hook line and stinker and defend them to the hilt and allow them to get to this point even though with have evidence and it’s been proven time after time that MTX are nothing more but bad for games and even kills some of them or create these terrible practices to see how far the companies are willing to go. People like me should just screw off! 
/s
You are actively trying to write off people’s criticisms or any sort of dissent towards the microtransactions by telling them to either deal with it or leave.
You keep on telling me that “PR doesn’t work”, but if it doesn’t work… Why, pray tell. Why… Are you defending MTX then? Why are you here then? You wouldn’t even care about this if it’s not for the PR. This is the point you keep on consistently missing and keep on proving correct here for me. If PR doesn’t work, Nobody would be defending MTX.
this is a real poor argument - everything you buy everywhere is bought with someone’s elses money. You didn’t mint that money yourself ( I hope not at least).
Also, Blizzard doesn’t raise the subscription price. It’s virtually unchanged after all these years.
It blows my mind when people say WoW isn’t P2W. It might not be for everyone but the fact we’re allowed to sell carries for gold, and gold can be bought with cash very much makes it P2W for the people that buy carries. Part of me is happy I can pay for my sub with someone else’s money cause I have a raid group that sells carries but another part of me hates that this is what the game has become. Eventually all that will be left are whales and the sharks preying on their desire for gear and I.O. scores.
September peaked at 101k players (not bad) which is when the Last Stand DLC came out. DLC was $20 PC only. $2,000,000ish (not bad) except the last DLC was Cold Stream over 9 years ago. So in 9 years, they made $2,000,000 outside of any additional game sales which, if we’re being honest is very low.
WoW makes $3 million off a single mount.
Don’t get me wrong, L4D2 is a great game… an excellent game and the fact that it can still make $2 million off a single DLC a decade after release is amazing but to pretend that it operates on the scale of a game that can make $3 million just by putting a pretty dragon on the store? Do you understand the difference yet? Do you want to wait 9 years for new content for WoW?
BTW, since your google fu is so weak, here’s Shadowland’s full credits:
New Shadowlands and Previous Expansion Credits Screens - Wowhead News
I can’t find anything on L4D2 Last Stand DLC credits but you tell me how many people it takes to make 2 maps over 9 years.
Edit: I’m not going to count SL’s full credits because it’s EXTENSIVE but they have 17 level designers. During Vanilla they had… 3? 4? Something like that.
Okay, maybe i missed something here, but i thought i made it clear that the DLC was free at launch. I do play Left for Dead 2 here and i was able to play it for free. It’s a pretty good map-pack, albeit short. Also i think you meant to talk about the Game’s price. the DLC didn’t come with a price tag. The Game itself costed $10.
Though at the same time of the DLC launch, it went on Sale with a heavy 80% discount. So $2. After that, it went back to $10.
Did a bit of calculating, assuming these are all new players, the 101K who bought the game that was on sale would be $202,000. If the 35K people who bought the game at it’s full price now, that would would be $350,000. Cutting in half to assume half is old players, that would be $101,000 on the sale and $175,000.
Again, going by Steam Charts here, isn’t really accurate if these people bought the game or not. But they give us how many players are playing L4D. I did tried to look for sales in 2020, but it leads back to this one or the one back in 2009.
Can i ask where you get that information on where a single mount makes $3 million?
This is why i bought up the genre when i last talked about it a few comments. Because i don’t think it was age was the point you were getting at back then.
Yes, L4D2, in comparison to WoW, is a zombie rush FPS Shooter where you coop with other survivors and sometimes be zombies that can either pounce, explode, lasso, throw off, jump on, spit, or just basically ruin their day if the dice rolls in your favor for you to become a Tank. The genre itself is inherently smaller then the genre of MMO’s. So therefore, yes, you would need a lot more investment and budget for those sorts of things.
Here’s the thing, the monetization models can be applied to either genre, even age, as we seen in CoD 4 MW remastered. And they can be often very similar in practice.
There is exceptions to this rule though.
One of them is WoW’s expansions, which doesn’t really act like an expansion, but of a sequel to that game, while overhauling, upgrading, and polishing it’s many mechanics and gameplay here and there, while keeping in the older version, albeit not in it’s original form. In similar vein of the constant sequels of Assassin’s Creed, Call of Duty, and all the Sports Games.You might argue that’s what an expansion pack is, but think about it like this way. Look at the DLC expansions for The Sims, Ark Survival Evolved, or Dying Light’s Following. It does introduce new mechanics, new land to play in as well new stuff, monsters and story to play around in. But it’s still exists in the same game here. Looking though the history, it doesn’t deviate too much from the base game. Take the expansions away, you just have a basegame with it’s many free updates that doesn’t too much to change the game. Meanwhile, TBC is different from Vanilla, Wrath is different from TBC, Cata is different from Wrath, you got the point.
This might be the same case for other MMO’s.
And what other monetization model can be applied interchangeably between game with ease other then microtransactions? The monetization model is what i was getting at, where i pointed to games like L4D2 here for a game that just sells a game and thats that, or TF2 for instance that is a free to play game with an unholy amount of MTX. A monetization model that i’m okay with, because as i said before, it where it belongs.
A Sub fee to keep the servers up and going is understandable, a game sale to support the devs and make them think it’s a job well done is understandable as well. And MTX being in a f2p is understandable because these are what supporting the game here because it is free to play from the onset, and it requires player to genuinely enjoy the game to a point where they will be happy to spend it. And i say genuinely, because you can do a f2p wrongly here by making the player go into the “haves and haves not”, with the timers, long grinds with options to skip it, all that jazz.
While it’s somewhat questionable these days to have a sub fee and a game price tag, regardless if the content is good or not, and especially with what you bring up the game age, i can only understand if it goes into making the game better, but that requires somebody to be really think about it if the initial fee plus the sub fee is worth to invest in. One of the reasons i like GW2 where it’s just the fee and that’s it.
But not only they need a sub fee and initial price tag of $40 (used to be $60), but to put in MTX and multiple deluxe editions of the same game that only added in cosmetics? I really don’t understand what they need all that money for here. It just seems like to me going way too far and showcasing to me that it’s a want now. A desire to keep making more money they don’t need.
And i really don’t understand why they can’t go F2P here if they want all those MTX. And no, F2P doesn’t mean it’s done or over… again look at TF2, look at Guild Wars 2, The MMO Gerne has like how many F2P MMO’s that’s still going on? If the MTX is to support the game because it makes tons of money, then what’s the sub fee and $40 for?
Nobody has expected Left 4 Dead 2 to have another content patch in 2020. The last DLC pack that was for Left 4 Dead 2 is back in 2011. (which also bought L4D1 over into L4D2)
Thank you for sourcing something this time, i actually appreciate that.
It’s a community made map pack with Valve’s approval, the same with Cold Stream IIRC.
https://www.shacknews.com/article/120556/left-4-dead-2s-the-last-stand-community-update-is-out-now
Umm… you do realize are comparing this to Vanilla, right?
Vanilla, despite it’s 3 or 4 level designers on it, has nearly 39 zones divided into two huge continents with 19 dungeons, 7 raids and 3 battlegrounds.
Shadowlands, with it’s 17 level designers, has 5 (7 counting Exile’s reach and Oribos) zones, 8 Dungeons, 1 raid, no battlegrounds, and they have a Torghast so far.
Maybe the idea your trying to get across here that with more designers means there’s more levels to go though, but that’s not the case here. Or maybe your alluding to the idea that those 17 designers were helping with detailing and perfecting the levels and therefore quality over quantity here?
It’s a bit of an assumption but a safe one. WoW charity pets always have a limit of $3 million and anything past that WoW keeps for themselves and the Blizz haters have always been quick to point out how greedy they are with approximately how much each pet sold to prove how much WoW earned. So I don’t have a direct link and relying on community information. I’m making the assumption that charity means nothing to our player base so every pet sells for $3 million+ and I’m assuming that most people that buy pets also buy mounts which costs $10 more.
It also had an 8+ year development window compared to the 2 year development window expansions have. But the primary point is that WoW has a larger development team now than it did when it first started. Again, can any of the games you listed say that?
So final note in hopefully a comparison you’ll be able to grasp. WoW, despite being aged, is still one of the crown jewels in ATVIs crown. Why? Because it still makes a lot of money. The moment it doesn’t make money… well, look at Heroes of the Storm. You want us to be like HotS?
It’s worked for me so far. Only things I’ve bought that is Chinese made is my iPhone & probably some parts in my computer. It’s not hard to find non Chinese made products, but you’ll have to pay more because the quality will be far superior & as you said, you have to look & pay attention to what your buying.
Does my house count? My driveway is a quarter mile long & it’s surrounded by now 174 acres of land which is all woods.
Source on those 80+ mounts??
Well it’s not really a mount, but… 
Can we not write those people off as Haters? just because they were criticizing or being skeptical, doesn’t make them haters. It’s such a copout answer to use. 
Honestly speaking, i don’t honestly understand why Blizzard felt the need to share that they need to make 3 million dollars that last time, when all the other times, they didn’t show it. Maybe the charity told them to do that, or Blizzard think it would make them seem virtuous in a way of being honest with what they want or trying to emulate what all the other charities does it where they tell you they need X amount of money. I don’t know the exact reason why they would ever do that, considering the fact that it was 2019, the year they were pretty much getting criticized for their actions they have done that time, as well last year and so on. A reputation if you will.
Well fair enough here, because i really don’t want to get into that year specifically, especially since how close it was to another (and rather serious) controversy.
Fair enough, so let’s take the 2 years and do a bit of match here to stretch it to 8 here to see the results of Shadowland’s levels if it takes 8 years like Vanilla did.
28 zones, 32 dungeons (Mythic plusers rejoice), 4 raids, 4 battlegrounds (possibly if the added 6 years allow them to make more BG’s) and way more content for Torghast for possibly a year to experience the entirety of it and then some other content. Not bad here. The zones and Raids are still below Vanilla, but this here is assuming what 17 designers with 8 years will give us.
I don’t know, i think that moniker goes to CoD and Candy Crush. Considering these are really simple to get into. 
Except if you take the MTXs away, it will just make less money, but it would still be making money. It wouldn’t suddenly not make any money just because it make’s less money.
Also, the reason why Herostorm (My abbv for Heros of the Storm) is “dead” is because they stopped the Esports of it. It’s still alive and kicking, despite not being relevant. I don’t consider a game dead unless it’s actually unplayable, that being it’s servers are shut down and you can no longer get into the game. I don’t think your asking me to take the Esports out of WoW.
(I had this last part in more detail, but my internet decided to be lame and died for 10 minutes. Fun. )
For sure those are but you can’t pitch a tent with two poles (or maybe you can… I don’t know). WoW is that dependable work horse that’s still profitable which is why it still has such a large development team. Overwatch also spent it’s time as one of ATVI’s most pivotal games and I have no doubt once OW2 is out it will also.
Ok… but the whole point is why would a company want to make LESS money? That’s why we keep going back to that talk of PR and how in the hell can that compensate for the loss of the income generated by the cash shop in a 15+ year old game.
I don’t consider it dead either but it ain’t getting any love from Blizz.
If Blizz stopped updating WoW but kept the lights on, I’d still play but that’s not what we want right?
That was oddly specific, but I don’t mind. I can be guilty of that too sometimes. I like your spirit, you get an upvote. Personally I want it to be similar to a Musk Ox. Apparently I am not the only one on the planet that see similarities between them and bison. I just hope we don’t look all wonky when riding them.
Listen to this guy, he pretty much hit it on the nail.
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