Alterac Valley in Classic

[Kasuya-azgalor]

Fair warning to those who decide to read (especially alliance) some of the things I say are very biased because I lived through this as a horde player and practically LIVED in AV when I got the chance to play. During this time I had plenty of experiences where when changes were made I was super confused why they were done for more balance but instead for a faster experience. As alliance already clearly had the advantage these changes just made it easier for them to win faster PERIOD. I now believe 1.12 AV is possibly the easiest route to take to get Classic out to the public faster, and that Blizz has no reason to lie about not having data from 1.5AV. Though an Orc has to wonder sometimes why Blizzard always seemed to favor Alliance in my perspectives, and even 15 years later when we get 1.12AV the Horde is not being considered IMO.

However if you Alliance decide to wear you big boy pants and would like to follow along even if only to discredit me I am sharing links to a video that agrees with my perspectives. Also you should know that even though I was pro Horde at the time, I also had a level 52 NE Warrior who loved free AV wins… but I saw BOTH sides of the fight.

1).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4?t=403
-Alliance had the advantage regardless, however when they were FORCED to fight us we had a chance to win. Geographically we were never meant to win as Horde, but when we had the chance to fight them and our NPCs were stronger they simply had a harder time just zerging in and winning. However Blizzard by this time was already well under way developing the Burning Crusade, so it also began to benefit them to find out what “catch up mechanics” would help players gain things faster so they had a chance to experience the game before BC launched. This (combined with Mark of Honor) helped to create a more shallow version of AV.
https:// wowwiki. fandom. com/wiki/Timeline(World_of_Warcraft)_
July 12 - Patch 1.6.0
Blackwing Lair added
Darkmoon Faire added
September 13 - Patch 1.7.0
Zul’Gurub added
Arathi Basin battleground added
Stranglethorn Fishing Extravaganza
Corrupted Blood begins as the result of a glitch in Zul’Gurub[5]
October 28–29 - BlizzCon 2005 (the first BlizzCon)
*Burning Crusade announced

2).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4?t=701
Mindlessly 40 Alliance players had an advantage already and once they made it easier for them by nerfing NPCs it became blacklisted by most seasoned horde players. We knew they owned AV because of the Geography and the NPCs getting nerfed made the game faster.

3).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4?t=753
The Alliance were most likely the ones complaining the whole time, they were probably the ones that wanted it faster or NPCs nerfed and since we have proof geographically that Blizz favored alliance already the Horde simply stopped playing, Ohh but when the alliance started to have problems winning they began to whine instantly. "Where is my FREE wins Blizz Devs?! WHY did you make my game HARDER? Now that Geography means less and reinforcements got added the horde can just kick our butts and it shows on the scorecard" (referring to when reinforcements were added way later)
Because of geographical conditions, marks system, and nerfs made to NPCs this began the birth of the zerg mentality, and the immersive war we all once had slowly began to become more of an obstacle to just finish and get done with it so we (esp allies because you’re the ones that truly benefited) could get our marks and get out faster.

4).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4
1.10AV is a clear example of how Blizzard was enabling the alliance to start feeling they could “rush” to places and just get the caps done. Combined with the geography that was clearly altered to slim down the map instead of changing the plethora of advantages the Alliance already had. As a Horde player during this time if I had a complaint I kept it to myself and was not involved on forums much at all, I remember thinking it was funny they could slim the map down but did NOTHING about the clear advantages they had with the clear advantage in geography and bunkers specifically that the alliance had.

5).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4?t=827
1.11 AV changes further attempted to “make the bg less pve and more pvp focused” But in reality it was already being spread around through the players (esp alliance) that a zerg was the way to win (esp premades). To add insult to injury marks of honor were needed along with honor to get the gear needed before the release AND burning crusade only made it worse. The ZERG was born… NOT just because Blizzard favored the Alliance but THEY favored the shorter version of AV so people could get their pinatas easier. (Esp Alliance because by this time it was business as usual in AV again Alliance geography still allowed them to rush to our base quicker, which made fighting them in your battlegroup harder across the board as they started getting FREE gear!) Blizzard Devs without realizing it destroyed AV over time for the sake of making it easier to just zerg.

6).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4?t=1030
Now we no longer have PvP in the battleground by this point for sure, it goes to show that the slow degradation and changes to AV were MADE SPECIFICALLY to be faster, and even more convenient for Allies. In the end though all it did was create a Non PvP BG and make a Instanced Zerging rush to the end boss. Now that players have that mentality we need every harder version back, and every version that forces us to work together and fight it out for a win. When we had to fight it out Horde had a chance, though as changes were made both team are just mounting up and racing past one another. 1.12 may not be as bad as a reinforcements game but the NPCs being nerfed is what creates that opportunity for a zerg.

7).http:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4?t=1085
Horde found a way to win with reinforcements but alliance players flocked ot the forums again to complain and to get their free gear easier… Don’t tell me it didn’t happen I was there reading it myself with my eyes kiddos.

8).https:// youtu.be/zbpgWkPbNc4
Alterac Valley was MEANT to be a PvPvE BG… but with the strange Alliance favoring geographical changes, and the changes to make it faster truly gutted our AV. Now we just go rush and sit in towers or sit in front of the throne room waiting for a cap. All because you Allies wanted your easy gear.
Well I don’t call that fun!

Another opinion similar to my own for those of you who aren’t already typing furiously to try and prove me wrong…
https:// www engadget com/2014/02/21/wow-archivist-the-evolution-of-alterac-valley/

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

I’m not sure what to tell you if you think 1.12 talents were exactly the same as 1.5 talents

I did not say they were the same, I said you have to pick a version because the two cannot exist simultaneously. You can have two AV map files in the game, you cannot have both 1.5 talents and 1.12 talents simultaneously.

that there weren’t significant changes in Strat/Scholo/UBRS when they change to the smaller sizes.

I don’t recall there being changes in mob density, placement, or anything all that significant to impact how the dungeon itself played out, but it’s been many years. Source me on how much was actually changed, and maybe I’ll be in your camp, but I don’t believe that was the case.

And apparently 1.11+ AV was more popular than 1.5 AV anyways.

Participation does not equal enjoyment. They made AV more rewarding due to marks and honor gained. Additionally, I’m not arguing for an AV based on popularity or enjoyment – I’m specifically for the angle that making available significantly different versions of AV exactly -because- they are relatively small pieces of WoW (they are literally a single instanced zone) and able to be implemented within the existing game without changing the existing game, and they are significantly different enough to warrant a place in the museum.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

I don’t recall there being changes in mob density, placement, or anything all that significant to impact how the dungeon itself played out, but it’s been many years. Source me on how much was actually changed, and maybe I’ll be in your camp, but I don’t believe that was the case.

Then you weren’t paying attention.

Participation does not equal enjoyment. They made AV more rewarding due to marks and honor gained. Additionally, I’m not arguing for an AV based on popularity or enjoyment – I’m specifically for the angle that making available significantly different versions of AV exactly -because- they are relatively small pieces of WoW (they are literally a single instanced zone) and able to be implemented within the existing game without changing the existing game, and they are significantly different enough to warrant a place in the museum.

No participation does not equal enjoyment but lack of participation in content that was for everyone indicates a problem. Naxx for example was just not designed for everyone, AV on the other hand was so when people weren’t using it… problem with the content.

[Majat-draktharon]

No, the vocal minority are still getting their way so we will get the version that allowed paladins with their movement speed boosts to burst through turtles and go cap things easier. They want to see Horde HAVE to defend in long drawn out battles to win. When the very nature of how the game is played has changed over the years, they argue that an easier to zerg version is best. Just like before we recreate that feeling that Blizzard is all Alliance. Once again we are going to have to do our best to turtle and waste everyone’s time trying to win. Rather than it being a node for node war with pinch point pushes and many more ways for the lower levels to contribute. This is a direct attack on Horde playera once again. We already know that AV wasnt designed for horde to have an advantage. The only time we had the advantage is when we got the chance to fight in large wars and literally kick the crap put of the allies and their pally friends like we used to and THAT’LL why they changed it. People always scream about data… you can’t “data” me i was there kiddos. I saw the changes. Premade alliance groups will now be allowed to push freely through with ease rather than have to stand toe to toe with the Horde. We are the forgotten faction once again

[Ehma-korgath]

No it’s still correct, it’s the longest version it just shares it with another version. Still correct.

Maybe next time stay in context of a conversation you butt into sweet heart

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

You are being disingenuous in your replies and deliberately obtuse in a way that comes across as arguing in bad faith.

You are just now seeing that? It’s his gimmick. He has some sour grapes thing going on due to the simple fact that his prediction and hope that classic would never happen was proved wrong.

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

Then you weren’t paying attention.

Sure I was, but its been ten years, hence why I offered you to, you know, show me something, which you still haven’t done.

lack of participation in content that was for everyone indicates a problem.

Now see, -that- is a valid point to bring up. However, I would point out that many people were still leveling / learning the BG even as it got changed. So I’d like to know the details on what ‘lack of participation’ entailed and how it was measured. At the same time, for weal or woe, I think an older version should be released with 1.12, as this is a museum, and history should be represented when it changes its place in the game on such a massive scale.
Again, my argument doesn’t hinge on popularity or enjoyment, but given the popularity of threads about old AV, I just think that it bears mentioning that just because players were given incentive to play the BG doesn’t mean it actually increased enjoyment on a broad spectrum.

No it’s still correct, it’s the longest version it just shares it with another version. Still correct.

Maybe next time stay in context of a conversation you butt into sweet heart

Oh, bless your heart.

Actually if you want to get technical 1.12 AV was the longest lasting version of AV during vanilla.

This statement is, remains, and continues to be, for all times, false, no matter how you try to dress it up in hindsight.
You claiming context in this instance doesn’t hold water given you broadened the statement to include all periods ‘during Vanilla.’ Not ‘between the two versions.’ You changed the context while trying to prove a sweeping point that you now know you can’t make. Don’t be mad at me for pointing it out. Accept that you misspoke and / or made a mistake in your understanding of the versions’ timelines and grow from it. It’s not the big deal you’re making it out to be. My concern is the misinformation.

You are just now seeing that? It’s his gimmick. He has some sour grapes thing going on due to the simple fact that his prediction and hope that classic would never happen was proved wrong.

No, I am aware, but a lack of good faith on his side does not constitute a lack of good faith on mine, and I will simply point out when he’s giving non-responses, and respond to things that have some measure of merit, even if it’s not always to the argument I’m actually making.

[Ehma-korgath]

This statement is, remains, and continues to be, for all times, false, no matter how you try to dress it up in hindsight.
You claiming context in this instance doesn’t hold water given you broadened the statement to include all periods ‘during Vanilla.’ Not ‘between the two versions.’ You changed the context while trying to prove a sweeping point that you now know you can’t make. Don’t be mad at me for pointing it out. Accept that you misspoke and / or made a mistake in your understanding of the versions’ timelines and grow from it. It’s not the big deal you’re making it out to be. My concern is the misinformation.

No it isn’t sweet heart! But keep telling yourself that =D

[Kasuya-azgalor]

Hey man, don’t let them get to you… they have NO life. Go post ANY topic that goes against what Ziryus thinks and he will pop out of nowhere and be there in like 5 mins ready to argue.

Edit: these are the forum trolls you’re dealing with. They derail topics and attack you so you lose your topic eventually just wasting your time.

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

It’s all good – I understand. But that’s why you have to deconstruct their arguments from the ground up, until it’s clear that their place here isn’t to contribute. Until then, I wouldn’t be arguing in good faith. I’ve given opportunities to be swayed over other aspects of the game (even though they’re not relevant to AV, the topic of the thread), and there’s been no reply.

I might be wrong, but I feel that taking the time to point out the fallacies is better than ignoring them – ignoring people lets them think they’ve made a point they haven’t.

[Kasuya-azgalor]

If you have the energy and want to do that cool. I am just giving you the 101 with it… stay in these forums long enough youll see em around again… disagreeing with pretty much everything and starting new topics on posts to derail the subject and ultimately pretend like they did something for the day other than beat their kids/wife

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

Oh, incidentally – you posted the video(s – though I only got to watch one!) about AV earlier today, right? It was an interesting watch, but I’ll point out that, as a primarily Alliance player at the time (I did have some Horde too, but no max-levels), the key to beating the Alliance at almost every patch was always Iceblood GY. Reinforcements or not, that thing was ridiculously easily to fortify and defend. Leave a chunk of the team there to defend while the rest advance, and 90% of the team will happily die on that hill.

Literally.

Despite being primarily Alliance, this should not be about factions, this should be about the BG, and preservation of a history that will otherwise disappear – but I respect that other people have other reasons, I just encourage you to consider that there’s Alliance that support having an older AV as well.

[Kasuya-azgalor]

Yeah I don’t mean to assume Alliance player don’t or wouldn’t enjoy 1.5AV over 1.12 But since I played both I got to see such a strange thing. Yes When we started to use IBGY it was perfect! esp if we capped two towers and there were reinforcements. However (not you likely) Alliance complained and we got our whole dang entrance cave pushed double distance if not more back away from it lol…

I mean cmon…

[Bloodscent-bleeding-hollow (Bloodscent)]

Having 1.5 as a weekend event would also allow people to taste authentic 1.5 AV.
1.5 was a huge part of Vanilla for many players. That is why this is still being championed.
“Blizz said.” Blizz also said they would never do Classic. Good thing we didn’t listen to those hall monitors posting that wall of no either.

I am 100% behind 1.5 weekends.
#pancakes

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

I bet if they didn’t introduce marks of honor, there would be less angst toward the old AV content and length.

[Ehma-korgath]

I bet if they didn’t introduce marks of honor, there would be less angst toward the old AV content and length.

There was angst toward old AV content and length during the time it was out, which was before marks.

If there was no DR on honor gains for killing players I bet there wouldn’t be any angst towards it.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

I bet if they didn’t introduce marks of honor, there would be less angst toward the old AV content and length.

Or if they implemented marks of honor as just a steady in game gain during the match instead of back loaded at the end.

For example every 100HK’s you get a mark, every tower that burns you get a mark and so forth.

[Postino-hakkar]

We don’t need all such fancy things. All we need is a small buff to NPCs and a bunch of landmines.

Blizzard can do it!

[Padrepwn-kiljaeden (Padrepwn)]

All we need is a small buff to NPCs and a bunch of landmines.

Blizzard can do it!

This is my thinking as well. This is not blizz’s first rodeo. If anyone in the world can rebuild 1.5 AV. It’s blizz.

I am 100% behind 1.5 weekends.
#pancakes

I as well. A weekend taste or even bi-monthly 1.5 AV is better than just not having it at all.
100% with you on the #pancakes as well.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

We don’t need all such fancy things. All we need is a small buff to NPCs and a bunch of landmines.

Blizzard can do it!

1.12 as is, #nochange