Alterac Valley in Classic

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

/shrug and this is where you blame the map instead of the players. Despite that there were plenty of games where a lot of pvp happened in 1.12.

No, this is where I blame the nerfs and outright removal of content which made zerging the most efficient strategy. Prior to that PVP was not optional.

But it was still over shadowed by pve.

[Ehma-korgath]

You do actually understand that the issues you have a problem with have nothing to do with nerfs and more so to do with people figuring out the most efficient way right?

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

Ressurects from the dead.

Actually if you want to get technical 1.12 AV was the longest lasting version of AV during vanilla. So… 1.12 AV is technically the essence of #nochange

False.
‘1.12’ AV – began on 06-19-06 with patch 1.11, ended on patch 2.0.1, the TBC pre-patch, on 12-05-06, 169 days.
1.8 AV – began on 10-10-05, ended on patch 1.10 on 03-28-06, 169 days.

If you’re going to claim technical accuracy, please be technically correct. It was tied with 1.8.

To respond in general to Eloraell about people not willing to compromise – I would be much more behind a weekend special than old versions of AV fading away as the phases progress. Removal of content is always going to be contentious – keeping it around is simply a better idea for a ‘museum’ rather than throwing an exhibit away. Classic WoW is a museum about Vanilla WoW, and while not everything can be restored, I believe there’s a place for ‘the changing face of AV’ as an exhibit.

Maybe it won’t be popular, maybe no one will play it. But it should exist, as it was a part of Vanilla’s history – and clearly, a very -popular- and very storied topic.

[Sovietgoat-darkspear]

Classic PvP Content Plan

1.12 Alterac Valley? Really? Why would you choose The shell of the live version of AV instead of the insanity and awesomeness of 1.5? Players looking to experience what Vanilla AV was like are never going to get to experience the rush of an AV match lasting for days and allowing them to just massacre people in PvP for hours. Really a disappointment to hear this, and it may actually affect my decision to even participate in classic now. I feel bad for the Newbies who wont get to experience su…

[Ehma-korgath]

So… I’m still correct? Gotcha. We were discussing 1.5 and 1.11 specifically so thanks for that

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

You do actually understand that the issues you have a problem with have nothing to do with nerfs and more so to do with people figuring out the most efficient way right?

Yeah, gonna go with no. Yes, zerging attempts began prior to 1.11. However, zerg attempts in early AV were next to impossible, because of all of the content that was later removed. To pretend they had “nothing to do” with it is insultingly disingenuous. That tact gets no more legit the more you and the other zyrius types spout it onto these threads.

Furthermore, it was not just the changes that made the zerg the most efficient way to do AV, it removed the actual fun of having the time to use the inherent tools of the BG.

SINCE people have been taught that 1.11 and onward were most efficiently completed via zerg, it is PRECISELY why all of the early content must be back in. Otherwise the once great BG will be just a wet fart.

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

No, we are discussing Vanilla AV as a whole, and your statement was a blanket, that ‘1.12 AV was the longest lasting version of AV during vanilla.’

So… No. You’re not correct.

[Ehma-korgath]

No, me and that guy were discussing 1.5 and 1.12 and you butted in. Do you get into someone’s convo irl and tell them what they’re discussing?

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

If you want a private conversation, this is not the place for it, and let’s not pretend that it is.

Additionally, your statement is still incorrect as it was stated. If you wanted to compare two -specific- versions of AV, your statement should have reflected that, especially given in the history of this topic, other versions of AV have been mentioned often.

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

So… I’m still correct? Gotcha. We were discussing 1.5 and 1.11 specifically so thanks for that

We are discussing early AV compared to 1.11, meaning pre nerfing.
1.6 still had all of the content, as did 1.7. So if you want to get down to brass tacks, The bulk of the content existed in AV much longer than version 1.11. IIRC only bug fixes and adjustments that buffed elements of AV occurred between 1.5 and 1.7.

And you literally said 1.12 was the longest AV version in vanilla. Words matter.

[Danze-frostmourne]

Will items like Frost Runed Headdress which is pre-raid BiS for mages be available from the summonable bosses?

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

No, we are discussing Vanilla AV as a whole, and your statement was a blanket, that ‘1.12 AV was the longest lasting version of AV during vanilla.’

So… No. You’re not correct.

Well technically the major nerfs to NPC’s were finished by 1.11. So it’s very fair to say that even in vanilla 1.11 + 1.12 was the longest lasting version, or at least an equally large portion, of AV.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

But it should exist, as it was a part of Vanilla’s history – and clearly, a very -popular- and very storied topic.

As a limited “Alternative weekend” style thing, I totally agree. There’s other ways that can be extended too like “C’thun with original stats - Prove Ion Wrong” etc.

[Thalmàr-ravenholdt]

I think many people who are advocating the earlier AV is being boring, not popular, pve focused and not many was playing missing “THE” point. Since the start of the wow development the main focus of the developers always have been on PvE. I do believe if AV was being promoted ,as much as they have promoted their raids, it would be successful even on the earlier versions and this debate we are being a part right now would be obsolete.

Many people including me when we first started playing never encountered by developers AV was being encouraged to join. But I can assure you, every ten minutes in cities their lovely raids being promoted by yelling NPCs. All story ended up that we should join raiding crew. I do believe regardless of play style every aspect of the game should and should have been promoted equally.

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

So it’s very fair to say that even in vanilla 1.11 + 1.12 was the longest lasting version

… No.

‘1.12’ AV – began on 06-19-06 with patch 1.11, ended on patch 2.0.1, the TBC pre-patch, on 12-05-06, 169 days.
1.8 AV – began on 10-10-05, ended on patch 1.10 on 03-28-06, 169 days.

or at least an equally large portion, of AV.

Yes.

As a limited “Alternative weekend” style thing, I totally agree. There’s other ways that can be extended too like “C’thun with original stats - Prove Ion Wrong” etc.

While I wouldn’t be against something like that for other content, I don’t think it’s shown itself to be nearly as popular an idea as alternate AVs. I think the primary thing here is that previous AVs have shown themselves to be removed content – different quests, literally removed areas, different ways the BG could play out due to NPCs existing that do not in the 1.12 version.
Fighting C’thun will always be fighting C’thun, the basic flow of the fight is going to, basically, be the same. Beating ‘weekend C’thun’ could be a challenge – but it’s not ‘See the vastly different encounter’ that different versions of AV are. You could make an argument for it, but that’s not my business, as it stands.

It’s worthwhile to mention that I’d be perfectly okay with multiple AVs existing side-by-side, for the playerbase to decide which one gets to be the ‘popular’ one, but I would accept a weekend-only, as at least these previous version(s?) would be being preserved as best as they could be, and able to be experienced, which is the purpose of a museum.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

While I wouldn’t be against something like that for other content, I don’t think it’s shown itself to be nearly as popular an idea as alternate AVs. I think the primary thing here is that previous AVs have shown themselves to be removed content – different quests, literally removed areas, different ways the BG could play out due to NPCs existing that do not in the 1.12 version.

Sure but then so have much more important things like talent trees. Which we’re getting the 1.12 version of. Or other things like 5/10 man Strat/Scholo/UBRS vs 10/15 man. At the end of the day we’re getting 1.12 versions of everything.

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

Talents cannot exist side-by-side. In the end, 5 / 10 man Strat / Scholo / UBRS are, at their core, still Strat / Scholo / UBRS, and they are largely tuned by numbers, not mob existence and / or a map that literally changed.

You are trying to muddle the comparison of apples by adding oranges.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

Hmm… at the end of the day 1.12 AV is 1.12 AV and not 1.5 AV. Just like 1.12 talents are not 1.5 talents and dungeons sizes in 1.12 are not the same as 1.5.

[Enshui-sisters-of-elune]

You are being disingenuous in your replies and deliberately obtuse in a way that comes across as arguing in bad faith.

1.12 AV has an entirely different way of playing than the other versions of AV. You can look at AV and see very specific break-points – 1.5 is significantly different from 1.8 which is significantly different from 1.11.

Your other comparisons are incompatible with this example. Party size does not determine content when it’s a balance adjustment of NPC health and armor values and not the very -existence- of the NPCs. Talents are incapable of existing at different points at the same time. Pretending these aren’t factors and just repeating them without anything to back up what you’re saying highlights you’re not here to argue in good faith. Present an argument on how these changes are the same as the different versions of AV (as well as -realistically attainable changes-) or stop spamming the thread with non-arguments.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

1.12 AV has an entirely different way of playing than the other versions of AV. You can look at AV and see very specific break-points – 1.5 is significantly different from 1.8 which is significantly different from 1.11.

I don’t disagree with that.

Your other comparisons are incompatible with this example. Party size does not determine content when it’s a balance adjustment of NPC health and armor values and not the very -existence- of the NPCs. Talents are incapable of existing at different points at the same time. Pretending these aren’t factors and just repeating them without anything to back up what you’re saying highlights you’re not here to argue in good faith. Present an argument on how these changes are the same as the different versions of AV (as well as -realistically attainable changes-) or stop spamming the thread with non-arguments.

I’m not sure what to tell you if you think 1.12 talents were exactly the same as 1.5 talents or that there weren’t significant changes in Strat/Scholo/UBRS when they change to the smaller sizes.

I mentioned talents because they impacted every single aspect of the game, AV impacts one small niche of people who play AV. And apparently 1.11+ AV was more popular than 1.5 AV anyways.