Alterac Valley in Classic

[anon45291730]

Some want the blitz. The rest won’t know the difference.

Some want to survive without eating. Some want to put all the poor in prison. Some want a one world currency. A lot of people want a lot of things. The question is, what is best.

After recent clarity about the honor points system, there is no doubt that people will be accruing points by spamming runs of a 1.12 AV. It wouldn’t surprise me if large PvE only guilds assign a few officers to run 1.12 AV 24/7 for anyone interested. For many it will be their best option. The early success of premades in small BGs will break the will of PvP casuals, which will cause a steady growth of players who feel dependent upon 1.12 AV runs.

Alterac Valley was supposed to be an alternative to the boring PvP farm of small BGs. It was made for larger groups, possibly guild events. It was a tightly controlled OWPvP-ish scenario before getting gutted.

So as it stands now, there is no hope for any form of OWPvP type activity. They literally killed the last hope with this.

[Reapers-tichondrius]

This is a huge letdown. As someone who played AV 1.0 back in Vanilla, it was by far and above the most enjoyable thing in the game to me, and was the feature that I was most looking forward to returning to. 1.12 AV WASN’T the original AV, I was there for it. AV was original billed as a PvPvE experience, back when you still got WoW news from worldofwarcraft.com. The NPC’s, the different map routes, Korak, those were all part of the original AV experience. The nerfs/removed content were the harbingers of the beginning of the end of the true AV experience, turning it into the “race meta” that permeated the BG for virtually a decade and a half. I really, really hope that Blizzard reconsiders this.

[Irondani-tichondrius]

I agree.

The orginal AV captures the spirit of vanilla so well. Large scale, unpolished, not streamlined, odd mechanics, frustrating, not “fair” ect. I hope they bring it back - even for a few months.

[Colmannid-emerald-dream (Colmannid)]

(This is Melaned. Posting on this character as he is my current main and my love for AV also taking part because Alliance side is dwarven based. Dwarven master race!)

@Kaivax

This is a subject that has been asked about several times recently , and we want to clarify some of the details surrounding it. Like many aspects of the game, Alterac Valley was tuned and adjusted in different ways from patch to patch in 2005-2006.

First and foremost, we’re planning to use the 1.12 version of Alterac Valley. For many parts of the game like this, we’re picking an original WoW patch that gives us the most clarity for WoW: Classic, and 1.12 is that patch.

In Alterac Valley, that puts us before the introduction of reinforcements. It puts us before the removal of all of the Commanders and Lieutenants. The only win conditions are the killing of Drek’thar in Frostwolf Keep or Vanndar Stormpike in Dun Baldar.

It gives us several early improvements to the BG that we’re glad to have in place. Early on in AV, there were too many NPCs and they were too hard to kill. By 1.12, many had been removed and NPC health was brought down to a reasonable level. Turning in armor scraps is an encouraged, supportive activity by this point. Many capture points (mostly graveyards) had been moved away from their initial placements to gain better balance across the map. Korak the Bloodrager was removed, and killing opposing players no longer drops items like Dwarf Spines, Orc Teeth, or Human Bone Chips. Gross.

In our content plan update , we mentioned that we’re still working out exactly how and when PvP elements of Classic will roll out. We’ll update you on that here very soon.

Kaivax, to further push my point I want to state another post based entirely on the presentation of Classic in Restoring History presentation of Blizzcon 2018.

I will be focused on design philosophy as it was presented to us by Ion. For reference material of those reading this post here is a link directly to the beginning of said presentation.

- YouTube

As Ion questions, “Do we do work to remove something that was added to reintroduce something?” I ponder if he means this for things that occurred during Vanilla? I mean anything added after Vanilla should in general not be in Classic if I am not mistaken so him asking this about non-vanilla things would not fit.

With this very early line alone I argue that reintroducing 1.5 or 1.8 AV would be the epitome of bringing something back that can no longer be experienced. It was a major part of Vanilla, something that was fleeting yes but those that got the chance to participate in it often remember it fondly and greatly compared to its later forms.

Ion right from there goes to ask “Or in some cases do we even re-add certain bugs that were fixed along the way but felt like part of the experience?”

I understand that 1.12 AV was a part of the vanilla experience, but that form of AV is by far the lesser compared to 1.5 or 1.8 AVs which were greatly remembered by nearly all whom participated. Yes it is much different than the current iteration of AV in the current WoW but exactly how much different? I’d wager that it is a LOT closer to the current AV in current WoW than it is to 1.5 AV. Does the Classic team support the idea of bringing something in because it was “fixed” and eventually was a closer model to the current game? That seems to go against everything we have asked for, even if it includes bugs which Ion himself states could and maybe should be replicated to give us an authentic Vanilla experience.

Ion then targets the community and social dynamics that “are part of what defined WoW Classic”.
I think we can all agree that the social aspects that were introduced into the game back then truly are the defining feats behind it. So then I ask this. Do you remember? No seriously do you remember? Because I do.

I remember going to 1.12 AV and it was “RUSH TO END DOWN LAST TOWERS KILL BOSS” and that was it. Nothing else. There was no social interactions that were being brought into the battleground because of an element of the battleground. People just said “follow the group” and that was it.

In events like we saw with 1.5 and 1.8 you had to work together. The team that won was the team that utilized everything in the game. And to do that they needed for form social interactions to communicate what to do and work together. It was a need, not an easy option.

Later down the line Ion brings up the debuff limits. He mentions that the original limit was a technical limitation and not a design based one. He argued that because it was not design but technical that he felt more assued using the later limits compared to the original.

I’d argue that the changes made between 1.5 AV into 1.12 AV are in fact most definitely design based ones. 1.5 AV was an entirely different design. One we cannot access anymore. One that will always be remembered and missed by the majority of the FEW that got to experience it. Yes FEW got to. How many of those “rare vanilla players” that remain even got to experience it? Johnny who joined during 1.6 and didn’t get to lvl 51 till 1.9 likely never saw the inside of 1.5 AV. The original AV design was a battleground design never before created and not since then recreated in any game since then. It belongs in this museum piece.

From this point I will leave Ion’s presentation. I could probably find much more to use but I believe I’ve made my point on design philosophy. I will now however debunk ALL of the points you’ve made in this thread. I say this respectfully, not disrespectfully.

@Kaivax

It gives us several early improvements to the BG that we’re glad to have in place.

Improvements by what standard? Are they improvements that overall benefited the experience of the player that fitted in the Vanilla/Classic feel or ones that streamlined the battleground to be quicker and easier? This automatically would be going against the concept of Vanilla.

@Kaivax

Early on in AV, there were too many NPCs and they were too hard to kill. By 1.12, many had been removed and NPC health was brought down to a reasonable level.

Too hard to kill? Are you sure? Honest question. Because by 1.12 our gear got better and we were stronger. I’d wager “too hard to kill” during 1.5 is much different than “too hard to kill” by 1.12. And too many NPCs? Why would there be too many? This is a battle, not an empty field we should be running beside each other. The Alliance and Horde would have generals and captains specifically commanding that their side of the lands be heavily defended, if both armies rush by each other with no issue which is exactly what we will see with 1.12 as we did back then, then it is no battle. In fact, it’s just a single raid boss in an instance. The uniqueness is which side can kill their targeted raid boss first? Especially when we have 1.12 gear. This means that AV will be a cake walk for the extended time if it is lined up as 1.12.

@Kaivax

Turning in armor scraps is an encouraged, supportive activity by this point.

Encouraged and supported by who? If we get stuck in a turtle maybe, but when the only need, as you mentioned, was to kill Drek or Vanndar then you just needed to be the first group to get there and get the leader prepped to kill. I seriously feel like you are undermining the ability of players set in 1.12 gear.

@Kaivax

Many capture points (mostly graveyards) had been moved away from their initial placements to gain better balance across the map. Korak the Bloodrager was removed,

Different design does not make it better design. I am curious about this balance though?

@Kaivax

killing opposing players no longer drops items like Dwarf Spines, Orc Teeth, or Human Bone Chips. Gross.

So? Gross? I’m digging into pig bellies to get pig livers and peeling out murloc eyeballs at lvl 13 in westfall! This game has far been gross lad!

As a finishing statement I will say this.

It was said that this was meant to be a museum, an art piece of gaming history. To preserve something that forever changed the future of gaming. I feel that ignoring part of that creation, part of what made that work of art as such, something that can also never be experienced whatsoever again outside of this one final chance, is a bad idea and poor decision making. I also want to restate something I said MUCH EARLIER in this thread on Melaned.

The differences between 1.5 AV compared to 1.12 AV are a literal mirror between Classic and Current. 1.5AV took longer, gave more challenge, required more communication and had more immersion. 1.12AV was easily rushed, required less communication, less work and felt more PVE oriented in that one could go MANY AV runs without even facing a single opposing player.

If you ask me the choice is clear. 1.5 Alteric Valley is by far the best representative for having a full Vanilla/Classic experience. At this point I ask is if 1.5 AV or 1.8AV data is still intact? If it is, please, give us this. If it is not and thusly is not reproducible then just tell us. You’re not to blame, we understand mistakes were made 12 to 14 years ago. To finish this post however I do want to thank for you everything you’ve done up to and from this point on, I want to compliment you and your team on this great work. I will never forget it for the rest of my life.

[Prufinnor-wyrmrest-accord]

Maybe it was just the swap to the dwarf character, but this is a post that blizzard should take to heart.

If AV in classic is going to be in a perpetual state, it deserves to be the version with the most substance.

[Ozzyhammer-stormrage (Ozzyhammer)]

Blizzard is taking the EASY WAY out, TYPICAL ACTIVISION PEOPLE!

And you wonder why we quit retail over the years and why WoW Classic will suck for PvP in the coming years.

YOU HAD ONE CHANCE, ONE…to get it right (AV CLASSIC) Blizzard and you FAILED… YOU FAILED BIG TIME!!

[Colmannid-emerald-dream (Colmannid)]

I also want to restate something I said MUCH EARLIER in this thread on Melaned.

Also to further reaffirm points I had made in assurance that they are received I am quoting the post I referred to in here as it furthens my point so much more.

we’re picking an original WoW patch that gives us the most clarity for WoW: Classic, and 1.12 is that patch.

I’d like to start off by asking what do you mean by “gives us most clarity”? Do you mean as in that you have the most clean and sure information and data?

It gives us several early improvements to the BG that we’re glad to have in place. Early on in AV, there were too many NPCs and they were too hard to kill. By 1.12, many had been removed and NPC health was brought down to a reasonable level.

My problem with this is that it feels like it was a move to shorten AV. What I am trying to say is that is reducing the length of time or the requirements to see a fully completed game an improvement or not? Going back to the base idea behind Vanilla/Classic is that having things take time makes them much more valuable and worth the effort. Steamrolling through AV is not what I picture doing in Classic’s version of AV.

Most stories we hear of 1.5 AV are of how it would be epicly long battles where you could log off, go to sleep, get up go through your day, get on and join the same battle you were in the day before! People seem to have loved the idea of this. That an AV was a full blown out long battle, not a zerg rush to the end.

I want to point out that the idea that players can simply turtle is a folly point. Many players said “you can just not use flying mounts” to anti-flyers but that didn’t work for them. That’s because if given the necessary tools, the mindset of the player is to use the tools whether they advance the game play or not simply because they are the better option for achieving the end goal.

Korak the Bloodrager was removed, and killing opposing players no longer drops items like Dwarf Spines, Orc Teeth, or Human Bone Chips. Gross.

This actually removes a sense of immersion and rp element. Bringing back proof of kills was a great way to gain notability and would encourage players to go out and kill enemy players and then take risks to loot corpses in the middle of a battle. I feel like this added a sense of immersion and should remain.

Here’s a debatable argument that is drawn out to show a flushed out perspective to support 1.5 AV.
" 1.5 AV is an experience that was unique to vanilla warcraft and one that we can no longer attain thoroughly without relying on the use of PSs that likely use incorrect codes and have a form of AV that does not hold true to the original 1.5 AV.

One of the largest concepts that made Vanilla Warcraft something great was that it took time, effort and evolved various forms of difficulty that arise from simple coding. Going with the more streamlined 1.12 version of AV is going against that. Comparing the differences between 1.5 and 1.12 is akin in various ways to comparing Classic to Current. 1.5 being slower and giving a more difficult feeling while 1.12 rewarding the concept of zerg rushing and getting everything done quickly.

Many have argued that we can just force turtles in AV. Do you argue that we should allow flight as well? Because that is the very same argument that pro-flight players make. “You can just not fly” Given the ability to use something the players will be forced by their own mental state to use what they are given rather than break away and try to replicate what would effectively make the game better. Current wow would be much more fun if it were more difficult and slower to get through everything, but next to no one ever does the things that would help produce such results simply because “why not take advantage of the tools you have?”.

Besides. How often have we heard arguments from people who experienced 1.5 AV that it was a terrible form? Sure you could argue that at the time people may have complained while playing the game. Just like someone is going to complain about having to make 100 gold by level 40, that complaint is a current thought that will go by and be forgotten later. Real issues are not forgotten. They stand and they will be used to remind others. So has anyone come out with real issues about 1.5 AV?

So what are the real problems with doing 1.5 AV?
It will take longer to make, yes that is true. I was one of the few in a recent thread that noticed that they stated in the recent blizzcon that coding was lost between patches due to the way they worked during Vanilla. This sadly means that 1.5 AV data could be all but gone now. That is a “could” not a guarantee. So we should be asking Blizzard if they have the data to sculpt 1.5 AV or not. And if not then if they have enough vanilla evidence to thoroughly replicate 1.5 AV.

Blizzard will try to do this as cheaply and easily as possible, likely. Using 1.12 AV is much easier for Blizzard to create. That is true. But lowering our expectations and just accepting what Blizzard says to make it easier on them is EXACTLY what the anti-vanilla/classic forumers did. What did those of us who argued for vanilla servers for so long do? We argued for something that would take time, work and effort to be done. To simply give in now, when we have these final chances is laughable. We have classic coming now, this is a chance to let Blizzard know exactly what we want.

I feel if the community is more supportive of a 1.5 AV then they will give in like they did with Classic. Arguing that just because they will likely take the easy route is silly. We should be arguing for what we WANT , not just what we will ACCEPT . Simple as that. Let’s make this game the best version of vanilla as possible. We want Classic Vanilla experience. I feel that 1.5 AV better represents that than 1.12. 1.12 might have had more players experiencing it, but at that point AV was already being streamlined to be an easier and faster BG. That is not what we want with Vanilla.

I feel that the majority of vanilla supporting players can agree that we would rather them take their time and give us a perfected Classic rather than rushing it out settling for points that make the game feel weaker. Thus giving in to the “Well it is easier so they will do it” argument is a weak point to make."

Please reconsider what you do with AV. Even if it means offering two forms of AV at the same time I feel that having long drawn out real battles that are hard on the players but offer better immersion and greater incentive for conflict against actual players rather than avoiding the opposing forces to rush to the end and kill a raid boss is by far the best option.

In the end the comparison of 1.5 AV to 1.12 AV is much like that of Classic to Current in the eyes of a Classic player. 1.12 is rinsed off and cleaned up like what we see with Current, it runs smoother and faster with less material to work with and a higher pace to get players through the content. That’s NOT what we want. Classic is about a rough edged land that has content and material all around on its own with numerous immersive details and a form that rewards the idea of going after the objectives you WANT to go for, not feeling pushed into a straight line. 1.5 AV is a model for how Classic is to the general Classic player. It is rough, it is harder and slower, it takes a lot of time and it takes critical thinking. You must deal with the atmosphere and figure things out around you. Zerging can happen but it is very unlikely and can cost your team dearly. It has more immersive tools and more material for the players to work with by far and wide compared to that of 1.12. I truly believe that 1.5 AV is by far the premium option for Classic.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

So? Gross? I’m digging into pig bellies to get pig livers and peeling out murloc eyeballs at lvl 13 in westfall! This game has far been gross lad!

I wonder if Kaivax ever did the fecal quests spread through the entire WoW lifetime. Someone in the quest department has a fetish.

[Strokenchoke-caelestrasz]

not sure which patches nerfed the hell out of av but it went from epic and fun to a 10 to 15 min boring run to the boss race. please use the epic version not the lame one. People that want fast honor per hr or easy stuff go play current wow.

[Colmannid-emerald-dream (Colmannid)]

You’re thinking of the 1.5 through 1.8 versions of AV when it was still very good. By 1.12 (the one they’ve stated they will be using) it was just a raid boss encounter labeled as “BG” because you’re racing to kill other boss first.

[Luuni-area-52]

Why are people so surprised by this? 800+ responses and most in anger over something we were told months ago.

It’s like your mother telling you, you need to do your homework at 8:00 pm and then when she tells you to do your homework, you’re surprised.

Blizzard said repeatedly. 1.12 data. They said at Blizzcon they’re recreating the 2006 World of Warcraft experience.

If they go and change this, it opens up other requests to change more of the 1.12 data. What about in 1.1.1 when reviving at the spirit healer no longer dropped duration by 100% and instead did 25%? Do we change that?

Do we make Mark of the Wild cost reagents again?

Once you start changing the core of the 1.12 code, you open it up to other requests.

[Vulvoi-gundrak]

Why are people so surprised by this? 800+ responses and most in anger over something we were told months ago.

Asked and answered - for most of the 800 posts actually.

Your feigned ignorance of the issue says more about you than anything happening on these forums, or with the development of classic in general.

[Luuni-area-52]

I think it’s more of people being upset with getting exactly what Blizzard said they were getting.

[Stimpäk-proudmoore]

If we are picking and choosing then I think mages should get Khadgar’s unlocking.

Or perhaps give Paladins Crusader Strike/Holy Strike.

I mean, it was apart of the original vanilla timeline why not give it a try?

Sarcasm if people couldn’t tell…

[Melaned-blackrock (Melaned)]

Why are people so surprised by this? 800+ responses and most in anger over something we were told months ago.

1.12 base. They even stated that they might remove things that were added in vanilla later on in order to reintroduce things that existed in Vanilla prior.

If they go and change this, it opens up other requests to change more of the 1.12 data. What about in 1.1.1 when reviving at the spirit healer no longer dropped duration by 100% and instead did 25%? Do we change that?

Do we make Mark of the Wild cost reagents again?

Once you start changing the core of the 1.12 code, you open it up to other requests.

You realize there’s a difference between having legitimate debate/argument points behind something and not right?

If there’s a legitimate amount of reasoning to support the concept of making something different from the base then it is likely fine, so long as it follows major points i.e. had to exist during Vanilla.

1.5AV is a well-known part of Vanilla experience. Part of this is recreation to create a museum piece of gaming art for those who either want to revisit it or have never experienced it. 1.5 AV fits that idea much greater than 1.12.

I don’t blame you for not reading comments above due to nearly 900 of them but there’s some major points here.

I also need to re-emphasize this in general. Some people act like we were told “you’re getting 1.12” Even having someone call it 1.12 Classic.

No we’re not getting 1.12. 1.12 is going to be the BASE. The main setting from which they will then make changes on from then on. Based on that idea that it would be 1.12 then why are we getting loot trading, sharding, timed content release and so forth?

[Luuni-area-52]

Ion stated at Blizzcon “We want to recreate 2006 World of Warcraft.” It’s on video.

They also stated at Blizzcon they don’t want to stray from the 1.12 data and they hold that data as sacrosanct. Apologies if you’re trying to find a different meaning of the words “recreate 2006 World of Warcraft.”

Content release schedule is Blizzard trying to be nice and give us an authentic journey. But you know what? Everything including BWL, AQ, ZG and Naxx existed in the 1.12 data.

It still exists. I’m willing to be when you play Classic you will see Naxx floating around in the plague lands. You can’t reach it. But we’re getting it because it’s in the data.

[Melaned-blackrock (Melaned)]

Then why are we getting bnet, loot trading, timed content release, timed pvp content release?

We should be getting everything all at once without the changes!

[Luuni-area-52]

They’re trying to stay true to the original timeline without messing with the 1.12 data. Shoving 1.5 AV or 1.8 AV into Classic strays away from “Don’t mess with 1.12 data”.

You can still gate off BWL. It will still exist. It’s just locked. Its not disappearing.

1.12 AV goes with what they said at Blizzcon. It’s coming from the Ion’s mouth. He’s the game director. The team picked 1.12 AV.

If they change it to any other version. You’re now opening the flood gates for people to start requesting old talents and anything else.

Blizzard clearly didn’t want to do that, hence why they picked the 1.12 data. It’s complete, as they have stated before.

[Melaned-blackrock (Melaned)]

“Don’t mess with 1.12 data”.

that was stated because they did not want to alter it in a way that is nonexistent to Vanilla. To alter it in a way they see it would be to deviate from the concept of the recreation itself.

You can still gate off BWL. It will still exist . It’s just locked. Its not disappearing.

1.12 AV goes with what they said at Blizzcon. It’s coming from the Ion’s mouth. He’s the game director. The team picked 1.12 AV.

He did not say “we’re going with 1.12 AV” He said they’re using 1.12 code.

I don’t think you understand my point. You act like we should not be surprised by this because we’re “[getting 1.12 and that’s what they told us]”. Then if we are getting 1.12 why are we not getting 1.12? Because to get 1.12 Vanilla as Classic means to get 1.12 . . . Why did he even bring up the 8 slot debuff point? If it was 1.12 that would not have even been a question right?

Why did he mention about bugs that were fixed along the way? If they were fixed by 1.12 then that shouldn’t be a question!

My point is 1.12 code is the BASE. Classic =/= 1.12 Vanilla. Classic will be very close to 1.12 Vanilla as it will be using that as a base but it will have alterations strung through it for various reasons.

If they change it to any other version. You’re now opening the flood gates for people to start requesting old talents and anything else.

Apples and Oranges.
There’s a difference between wanting a Battleground to be set at a certain state during the Vanilla timeline and wanting to completely alter the balance and overall feel of the game. Slippery Slope is a fallacy when used inappropriately. Based on this speculation we’re already going down because we have gated content, loot trading, bnet and so forth.

[Luuni-area-52]

Having a battleground be anything other than 1.12 will ruin the authentic nature of the game come phase six.

Phase six should be an accurate representation of 1.12 since that’s 1.11 and 1.12 content.

So do you want 1.12 AV then?