We’re talking about the vanilla experience as a whole. To re-experience vanilla in general. Certain large moments should be re-experienced. Like AQ gate opening for example.
Based on this argument now we should be getting all of the patches 1.1 through 1.12 then. If phase 2-3 whichever is 1.5 then do you expect us to have 1.5 AV? Do you expect AV to be changed through the phases to represent those later patches?
Because if not then we are not getting authentic vanilla.
No I don’t expect that because that’s way too much work and they stated at Blizzcon that they don’t have access to that data. They do however have 1.12 data. So they’re going to try and recreate 1.1-1.12 without messing with the 1.12 data…like they said.
So I’ve set realistic expectations based off of what Blizzard told me at Blizzcon. They said they have the 1.12 data. So I think it’s unrealistic to expect 1.5 AV when they don’t have the data.
Unless someone, somewhere, steps forward with the 1.5 AV data. Where do you suppose we get it?
How do you know that they do not have 1.5 AV?
Because…they said they don’t have the 1.5 data? They said they found the 1.12 data in some off site data storage.
Did you not watch the panel?
Here is where they said at Blizzcon they have 1.12 data and “slightly before.”
I don’t recall “some off site data storage”. . .
That being said, their stated reasoning in the panel for lost data was because the way the patching system worked back then. They stated some data was lost between patches because they just used the ptr version then pasted it over live ignoring any need to return to prior points.
They never specified not having 1.5 AV or entire patches altogether. And I’ve stated not once, not twice but three times in this thread alone and another in my own thread on this topic that if they simply don’t have the code/data for 1.5 AV then just tell us in this thread. They walked around that completely with little silly points all of which I’ve debunked already. They could just tell us, as they were willing to in years prior, that the data for 1.5 AV was lost. It would be simple.
And what are the specifics of this “slightly before” then? We know that they stated they “lost some code between patching”
The problem is they have not clarified as to what exactly has been lost and what hasn’t only that 1.12 is intact and those prior are likely missing parts in each.
They don’t need to explain to us what is lost. It’s not need to know information. If you think Blizzard is somehow lying to you when they said they only have 1.12 and slightly before, but you think they have full versions of 1.5…that’s on you.
I take them at their word. You shouldn’t need any further clarification.
Um maybe they should? There’s 900 replies to this blue post, it is the least liked and most replied to sticky here with the most negative/disappointed overall theme in posting.
I am not insinuating that they are lying, your proposed 1.5 AV is gone is. Because to say that they were lying is to say that the reasons presented here in this sticky are covering up the real reasons for not doing 1.5 AV. I am simply arguing against what they have told us and have said, that if the truth is that 1.5 AV data is gone then just tell us because I understand that that could be part of it.
If they came out and said “Hey sorry 1.5 AV data was lost” I guarantee you 90% of those arguing for 1.5 would settle down. Disappointed but not debating/arguing.
At their word? Their word long ago was that they had none of the Vanilla coding and that we could not return there. I am not going to pretend to know what they are thinking. I am not going to call them liars. I am going to request further information behind decisions that, as I’ve explained in this thread, go against their design philosophy.
As said. Until I am told that 1.5 AV data/code is gone I will argue for it’s use. If it turns out to be gone then I will accept that. But they have not stated that it is gone directly. They are getting a good amount of negative/disappointed responses, enough to warrant further explanation in my opinion, that they should realize the reasons stated to us are not good enough.
If they are the real reasons which until told otherwise I am accepting them as the real reasons then they need to rethink this. If there is something more serious blocking the ability then they should just tell us in general.
I’ve mostly left the door open. I am arguing against the reasons given to us but leaving the door open understanding that there is a chance that the data/code is gone. Maybe they don’t even know if it is gone or not? And to figure that out would require searching through the pre-1.12 data that they do have? What if to do that would require too much work? There’s a lot of what ifs. Until then I am going to respond to their point. You’re the one insinuating that them losing 1.5AV is stated fact. They’ve not specified what data was lost entirely and what data they have other than 1.12.
And just to be clear here. Don’t act like I’ve not seen the constant use of Red Herring Fallacy. Overlooking/Ignoring/Dropping multiple points I’ve responded to to bring up new ones simply to argue against 1.5 AV overall. The only thing to stand on is IF 1.5 AV is gone, and based on your “take them for their word” point, it isn’t.
The reason this thread is 900+ replies is because you and a handful respond to every post that doesn’t support 1.5 AV, of which there are many.
You were all for 1.12 AV until you read a couple of posts by pro-1.5’ers, at which point you changed your mind and are now stoically in support of 1.5 AV. The hilarious thing is, you’ve never experienced 1.5 AV and those who you brown nose have changed their minds and now seem to push for 1.7 AV but your argument is still left in the past. I bet you couldn’t even articulate why you think 1.5 is better than 1.12 or even 1.7, despite claiming to be some awesome debating guru.
LOL are you serious? So a person cannot be persuaded? Oh and I am sorry, near 14 years ago experiencing it just a few times it’s kind of easy to forget you know?
Excuse me? Debating guru? lol wtf? I’ve stated I enjoy debating if anything. And then acting like I’ve not put real valid points? I’ve made not one but two drawn out complete posts in this thread both containing thoroughly articulated reasoning to support 1.5AV.
What is this post even? Ad Hominem.
Serious question though. Is this about the last few lines? Because you realize what that is about right? How annoying it is to have things you say get brushed off by them just dropping their point and picking up a new one like nothing happened? It is disrespectful to the debate being had and a sign of a failing argument. I don’t like it when people just blatantly ignore said points so that they can pretend theirs were never proven wrong to them. I have had points proven to me and my own points broken before in these very forums and whenever proven wrong I gladly accept it. I value the truth over all else.
As for the 900 remark. Are you going to sit here and tell me about 450 of the comments here are from the same 5 or so people upset about this?
Edit. Went up took top 5 posters (Yeah I wasn’t even top 10 before this debacle) and added them up. Came out to 198 posts, almost half of that is broken alone. Subtracting that you still have about 700 posts. . . SUBSTANTIALLY more than the other stickies by far still. . . P.S. I don’t really generally agree with Broken’s arguments from what little I’ve read. In fact I don’t care what other pro-1.5, 1.7 or what have you posters say. I speak for myself thank you very much. So don’t act like I am part of some stupid little club.
Dont bother with that guy or luuni they are both trolls. Luuni didnt get the change she wanted so now she is super salty and likes to rub it in that we didn’t get what we wanted. Her post history is basically muh nO cHaNgEs Haha reeeereeee I told you so. There’s no point responding to her.
Actually while I am sure she is probably as you’ve stated, I don’t think she was trolling here lol. Her argument type relying entirely on Red Herring is a common low/non critically thought-out or deceptively emotional form of arguing.
Using Red Herring is common when you don’t want to acknowledge that your point has been shot down. It’s why my very last statement to her was what it was. Because she used every single point she had and in the end the only thing she could stand on was IF they were lying about their reasoning. She completely contradicted herself and blew her own argument out of the water.
What annoys me is this. People that use this style of arguing will go on as if their points still held merit and had not been dis-proven and will go on to use them later against others who’ve yet to disprove them. Completely disingenuous.
Yoinke assumes I am part of a small fringe 1.5 AV group that uses over-inflated emotional/harsh argumentative points that cause drama here. While I may get along with and agree with Broken and others’ stance(s) on 1.5 AV I’ve no love for some of the arguments I’ve seen used by them.
His issue is, outside of the 900 reply comment of which I’ve already shot down, that his entire post relies on ad Hominem and assumptions. Attacking me for the sake of attacking me without knowing my real arguments or listening to my real points. It’s likely he is either adamantly opposed to 1.5AV (or 1.7 whatever he said) and those defending it or he’s been annoyed by Broken and others’ arguments on it and is taking it out on me because of how I last responded to Luuni.
But hey thanks for the reply! Good to know.
Edit: I should note that the issue for them here is that they’re dealing with someone who is a debater personality type, a writer and high end IQ. I state this because I love debating and because of that know how to acknowledge and deal with points as well as debate fallacies, as a writer I know how to read into wording properly and better understand what things mean based on how they are said and the IQ part only further fueling the two previous points. Hence why their points were shot out easily. As said though I value truth above all else and will and have freely admitted when I am wrong.
The majority of it now is just “cut and paste” posting from thread to thread, no matter the topic. Maybe she’s got some solid macros set up. Nothing of substance once you understand: “1.12 so there!”.
Even with as heated as I can get, I actually have an argument for the topics I am passionate about. The dismissive rubber stamped BS is something that is very easy to blow off.
Still a horrible decision.
Please rethink this, for the sake of the BG’s depth and longevity.
The decision was made because players at the time didn’t like the battleground. Not all the players. But a majority of them. Hence the changes.
Blizzard normally changed things in vanilla to improve them due to player feedback. Not on a whim. So clearly there were problems with AV or else it wouldn’t have been changed so much.
1.12 is the settled version that the 2006 Vanilla WoW dev team decided on. They felt it was the best version at the time.
I don’t see the need to change it. I’d like to keep with the design of the original WoW team. They changed it for a reason.
It’s disrepectful to the original 2006 WoW team to use an inferior version of AV (to them). Keep the 1.12 version if current blizzard can’t retrive the older files.
Thank goodness we have Luuni here to remind us that Classic is based off 1.12. We almost went 2 minutes without her making another post stating the exact same thing.
It’s insulting to the original WoW team to not use their best version of the game. People normally don’t change things unless they feel it’s an improvement.
It’s like asking an author to use their rough draft instead of their finishe copy.
The folks on the original WoW team worked hard to make the best product they could for Vanilla. That work stopped with patch 1.12. Honor their choices and vision for the best version.
It’s insulting to the original makers of AV to use the 1.12 version. If you read the Blizz blog that accompanied it it was supposed to be a battle about two warring Factions. They wanted players have to the option to contribute even if they had no interest in pvp. That’s how it was originally designed, if you want to use the word ‘original’.
A 4 minute zerg rush where you don’t even need to take down towers is hardly a testament to that philosophy. But it’s what we’re getting. It’s not the right choice, but that’s up to the devs.
If the original WoW team didn’t want AV to be like the 1.12 version, they wouldn’t have made it the way it is.
You may not agree with it. But that team felt it was the best version at the time. Blizzard puts a lot of passion into their work and team that worked on AV did just that.
1.5 would be going back and using an inferior version. Because if it was the correct version, we’d see it in patch 1.12.
We’re going for the best vision of Classic WoW. The best way to achieve that is to emulate the original WoW teams final work.
We’re not going to agree on this. It’s like you saying Star Wars should have ended after episode six and episodes 1-3 weren’t needed. And then me saying 1-3 were needed because if they weren’t, they wouldn’t have been made.