Alterac Valley in Classic

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

Right so not even 1.5 AV was any good and last a grand total of 2 patch. Don’t know where people get the idea that it was 1.5 AV then suddenly everything changed in 1.12(actually 1.11)

AV began receiving huge nerfs starting in patch 1.8, when marks of honor appeared.

I have not pushed for 1.5, but rather “early AV”, including all of the original content/stats, and all bug fixes.

[Postino-hakkar]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

[Cubic-emerald-dream]

And how do you know they based it off raw numbers instead of participation percentages.

Neither are a metric to gauge enjoyment.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

Fact: Ion wrongly believes that Participation = Enjoyment.

Actually I’ll address this separately, Ion right now believes that the way to increase participation is to adjust rewards instead of improving the content.

The changes to AV were the exact opposite, the content was improved.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

I still ponder. I’m not here to argue, only throw out thoughts. On live in BFA, this is not the case. I can’t remember the last time Alliance just zerged to Drek and won. Every match is basically Horde defending IBT and IBGY, and making Alliance adjust the strat. I’d say more BGs turn into turtles than not for live.

What changed from 1.12 to now? I thought 1.12 AV was essentially live AV, with no reinforcements and a few elites still wandering around?

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

I still ponder. I’m not here to argue, only throw out thoughts. On live in BFA, this is not the case. I can’t remember the last time Alliance just zerged to Drek and won. Every match is basically Horde defending IBT and IBGY, and making Alliance adjust the strat. I’d say more BGs turn into turtles than not for live.

What changed from 1.12 to now? I thought 1.12 AV was essentially live AV, with no reinforcements and a few elites still wandering around?

The people claiming 1.12 AV was nothing but 10 minute rush games are just fear mongerers. Plenty of games in 1.12 AV lasted hours.

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

Participation absolutely equals enjoyment, are you high?

People participated in TBC timewalking.
People did not enjoy participating in TBC timewalking.

Also, go ahead and tell me that (majority of) people enjoy Pathfinder…

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

From 1.12 onward, the most efficient way to win AV was by zerging. That truth has been ingrained into every modern player of AV over the past 10 plus years. It does not take flushed out L60s to succeed in that tactic, and that tactic will be utilized each and every AV.

I agree. 5 to 15 minutes games will be norm when 90+% of your raid can safely ride all the way from entrance to final GY pretty much unimpeded.

I still ponder. I’m not here to argue, only throw out thoughts. On live in BFA, this is not the case. I can’t remember the last time Alliance just zerged to Drek and won. Every match is basically Horde defending IBT and IBGY, and making Alliance adjust the strat. I’d say more BGs turn into turtles than not for live.

What changed from 1.12 to now? I thought 1.12 AV was essentially live AV, with no reinforcements and a few elites still wandering around?

The people claiming 1.12 AV was nothing but 10 minute rush games are just fear mongerers. Plenty of games in 1.12 AV lasted hours.

I know this for fact because I actually played the original AV in 1.12 Vanilla. Some games were quick, no doubt! At the time I was scrambling for AV rep to get an epic before TBC launch (Don Julio’s Band, which was replaced rather quickly to my dismay). Other’s lasted much, much, much longer.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Participation absolutely equals enjoyment, are you high?

People participated in TBC timewalking.
People did not enjoy participating in TBC timewalking.

Also, go ahead and tell me that (majority of) people enjoy Pathfinder…

I love TBC timewalking. Its literal timewalking for me, at least. I know those dungeons like the back of my hand.

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

I love TBC timewalking. Its literal timewalking for me, at least. I know those dungeons like the back of my hand.

I understand that some liked it. However, if you check out GD the consensus was not one of enjoyment.

Same with Pathfinder.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

I love TBC timewalking. Its literal timewalking for me, at least. I know those dungeons like the back of my hand.

I understand that some liked it. However, if you check out GD the consensus was not one of enjoyment.

Same with Pathfinder.

Correct that’s because right now the devs only understand using rewards to increase participation.

Instead of the approach they used in vanilla AV, changing bad content.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Well, I’d agree. TBC Timewalking lacks CoT Durnholde, so…it kinda fails at putting in the better of the dungeons.

Edit: It does have CoT Black Morass, another favorite of mine though. That was a unique dungeon for the time. Not a sprawler like BRD, but confined, and made efficient time use extremely important.

[Robfried-shadow-council]

You can pull the warmasters in 1.12 outside and tank them while the rest of the raid kills drek its actually easier to zerg without taking towers in 1.12. I would rather have bfa version without reinforcements.

Its not that you cant turtle 1.12 its just the easiest version to zerg in. Plus the map is changed and content taken away such as quests to kill korrak which didn’t spawn right away so you would have teams turtle until he showed to get the items.

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Hmm, I agree! That would make the BG far more involved.

So should we be asking for 1.12 AV, but with warmasters not being able to be pulled outside instead? Seems a simple enough fix.

[Robfried-shadow-council]

I want the bigger map and more more NPCs that are stronger and the items and quests that are gone in 1.12

[Galbados-twisting-nether]

Well, Blizzard has basically said that’s not happening. Basically, if you make the warmasters reset just like Van or Drek, then the zerg dies, immediately. It turns into a tower strat BG. Re-writing code for the warmasters in 1.12 is an easy enough solution, and a good compromise.

But I surmise the majority of people in the 1.5 / 1.7 / 1.9? camp, don’t want compromise. They want their 1.5 AV…or is 1.7…or 1.9?..1.11? Whats the consensus on which is best amongst the never 1.12ers?

[Xjum-skullcrusher]

I think it’s pretty obvious that planning is over. They surely realize that this decision wasn’t ideal but it was probably the path of least resistance as per cost benefit analysis.

[Robfried-shadow-council]

Thats prob true but the majority that want 1.12 either want it so they can grind rep quick and be done with it or for the whole no changes from 1.12. The only compromise that would work to me is to release 1.x patch as an event like once a month or on the weekends so we would have both to experience.

[Dotandplot-emerald-dream (Dotandplot)]

@Cubic-emerald-dream

No, it doesn’t. If you cannot grasp the difference, that’s on you.

1. Yes, it does. People don’t play Fortnite because they hate it, people don’t go to Disney World because they hate it, people don’t play or do anything because they hate it unless literally forced to. AV being unpopular means it wasn’t liked. Go take a basic economics class.

2. https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/9fb2bo/john_staats_ama_author_of_the_world_of_warcraft/e5ymu7a/

“AV wasn’t very popular, While some people enjoyed the mix of PVP and PVE, most did not.”

Get told, kid.

@Kasuya-azgalor

Just because tons of “whiners” flocked to the forums because they wanted their rep or gear faster and for AV not to take so long didn’t mean the majority were not staying in game and loving every minute of it. You’re argument is completely irrational

The majority hated old AV, you moron. The stats don’t lie, old AV wasn’t popular and wasn’t liked. Just because a bunch of whiners went to the forums to play make believe that old AV was amazing and everyone loved 48hr matches doesn’t mean the majority didn’t hate it and found the experience dreadful. Your argument is that of a petulant child.

[Kasuya-azgalor]

@Dotandplot-emerald-dream

@Cubic-emerald-dream

No, it doesn’t. If you cannot grasp the difference, that’s on you.

1. Yes, it does. People don’t play Fortnite because they hate it, people don’t go to Disney World because they hate it, people don’t play or do anything because they hate it unless literally forced to. AV being unpopular means it wasn’t liked. Go take a basic economics class.

2. https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/9fb2bo/john_staats_ama_author_of_the_world_of_warcraft/e5ymu7a/

“AV wasn’t very popular, While some people enjoyed the mix of PVP and PVE, most did not.”

Get told, kid.

@Kasuya-azgalor

Just because tons of “whiners” flocked to the forums because they wanted their rep or gear faster and for AV not to take so long didn’t mean the majority were not staying in game and loving every minute of it. You’re argument is completely irrational

The majority hated old AV, you moron. The stats don’t lie, old AV wasn’t popular and wasn’t liked. Just because a bunch of whiners on went to the forums to play make believe that old AV was amazing and everyone loved 48hr matches doesn’t mean the majority didn’t hate it and found the experience dreadful. Your argument is that of a petulant child.

Ohhh big man calling names now, BUT where is your proof?