Different mindset back then. Can you imagine the outrage of “OMG TIMEGATING!” if they released a raid after Dazar’alor that you had to clear all the previous content to get into? Or if they released another Netherdrake that took ages to unlock? People complain endlessly about rep requirements now, but that took way longer than anything in BfA took to get exalted.
The difference is people will just complain about anything today. There are plenty of valid issues, don’t get me wrong, but people still complain about the game being a timesink when that is what MMOs are supposed to be.
Exactly, and for arguments sake take the 2016 election. Everything pointed to one person taking it all. But there were critics, a lot of them, and no one believed them on either side. Also the silent MAJORITY didnt say anything, they just went out that day and cast their ballot without saying a word.
Its just like this game, the conserns are being dismissed by both sides, those critics against the game are being dismissed by the company(DNC) and by the supporters(the media), and we all know how that turned out. No one is perfect, period, and dismissing negative feedback on ANYTHING is usually a bad idea, because if you do, you end up with a company(the DNC and a certain candidate) thinking they couldnt possibly mess up. You know, the old adage, “We know what you really want”.
Its just like leets in the entire world, they tell us what they think we really want, but in reality, they are 100% wrong. Then they go around making decisions thinking they know better than the unwashed, ignorant masses.
Thats exactly how this situation between Blizz and the players reminds me of. If i strayed off a bit whatever, but it is exactly the same way i felt back then in 2016, and how i feel about Blizz at this point.
It’s one thing to say you’re listening and you’re reading it, but what about the Devs. We’ve seen so many CM just disappear off the forums in just the last 5 years, so it’s great you’re listening, but obviously the Devs aren’t.
So at what point do we as players decide enough is enough, because I know I’m getting pretty tired of paying monthly for something that doesn’t treat me like I’m a valued customer(and this is the majority of the playerbase otherwise you wouldn’t see as many hostile threads daily on numerous websites).
I know over the last 5 years I know I’ve given a vast amount of feedback over Legion and BFA Alpha/Beta and over the course of Warlords and Legion’s PTRs. I can say with utmost certainty that it felt as what little feedback was responded to(not just my own) was over looking what the players were actually talking about. It’s honestly aggravating and I know I’m not the only person who’s done wasting my time to test and give feedback on PTR patches and future alpha/betas tests, it’s very clear ever since Emerald Nightmare came out that you ignore the feedback of the players and that’s exactly why less and less people are giving you feedback on PTR.
Over the last few years Devs have shoved onto us various system changes that did nothing but hurt the playerbase and the response to the feedback was always pretty much “get over it, this is what we’re doing”. To name specific instances the camera zoom change in Legion Alpha, the nameplate change in Nighthold, forced personal loot with BFA Alpha, and the entirety of the Azerite system which had potential, but didn’t show up in Beta until the very end when no one could actually test the system.
In short, talk is cheap and no one is buying the BS anymore. It’s time to step up and give the players(who obviously know better than your internal metrics or testing teams) what they deserve, because for one it’s absolutely deplorable that you promised Enhancement Shaman significant changes, then dumped something that could have been done in a hotfix months ago onto them. Reality is, if you don’t step up, BFA is going to bleed more subs faster than Warlords did.
The only thing I really wonder at this point is why the devs aren’t more active on the Items and Classes forum. I wasn’t really around on the forums during the time but I’ve heard that devs back then were very active on the forums during MoP testing because the community left a lot of feedback about class design but it just didn’t happen this time around.
I would think that with everything that has gone on since BfA Alpha (almost a year ago) that communication in that department would have improved by now but it really hasn’t.
If our feedback is being read over there it would be nice to at least see the devs explain some of the philosophies behind some of the decisions and design moves they make.
Really surprised there hasn’t at least been a Q&A dedicated to classes or specs by now.
I’ve asked this before when blues have given such statements like this. How many years is the player base supposed to wait for changes to be made regarding your listening? Shouldn’t you be listening by now?
We have been expressly saying that we aren’t listened to since the alpha and beta of WoD when so many classes were gutted - not pruned. Things got worse during WoD and years passed, even though the community managers and devs said they’d work harder to communicate. I’m just curious as to how long you really think the player base will wait? Well, the remaining player base because I’m out of here on the 30th. (And you can see that I only resubbed for Dec. for Christmas.)
Depends a bit on what is considered popular, we have provided some updates on Azerite, Mythic+, and a few other things that were very heated.
For your question, I will look into it, but often what it comes down to is if someone really likes the color red, it is hard to convince them that blue is better.
Azerite wasn’t addressed at all, there’s still a VAST imbalance on traits and the obtaining of Azerite Armor is harder now than before the patch came out. The removal of the chance from the chest, coupled with the only real way to get any of the currency is to be a selfish person and never trade Azerite Armor away makes this a very SHORT-SIGHTED change and it’s further punishing for guilds who trade away their Azerite for the benefit of the guild and for the benefit of progression, but of course Blizzard doesn’t care about that, otherwise this would have NEVER happened the way it did.
TBC was way worse than that. Don’t forget all of the raider poaching that went on.
My guild was stuck in Karazhan for two full years until they released the troll raid because we couldn’t field 25 people despite regular recruitment. We would get 25 people, start sitting geared peeps to get the newbies geared so we could start Gruul, and then some BT guild would come along and snipe them.
I would have loved to have been able to progress into BT, but we kept losing people.
And it only got worse when Sunwell came out because that raid destroyed raiding guilds. So the people who wanted to keep going would re-form by poaching from the Tempest Keep guilds, who would then have to poach from the BT/coilfang/gruul guilds, who would have to poach replacements from guilds like mine who couldn’t quite field 25, but had two healthy 10’s going every week.
It was a nightmare. Karazhan was great, but I never want to set foot in it ever again.
The pro flyers were asking for flying day 1 of the expansion at max level, purchased with gold per character like we always had since flying was put into the game with the BC expansion. (Cata being the exception since we could fly immediately just by purchasing it.)
If you saw anyone asking for flying just for playing, that was not the general consensus of pro flyers.
And no, there was never a discussion regarding anything about a compromise. You are very wrong about that. The devs put in the Pathfinder meta achievement after so many people unsubbed and they reversed their decision within 2 weeks of their announcement that there would never be flying again in WoW. It was thrust upon us. No discussion and no compromise.
No one ever said during WoD that we’d be okay with flying later in the expansion, either. If they haven’t deleted them already, you might want to go back and see the thousands of posts on the subject in the old forums because what you’re saying is incorrect. (And sounds a lot like some others’ rewriting of what really happened.)
A very small change was the placement of the 7th something vendor in Boralus. There was a thread last month or before that vendor interfered with people jumping onto that dock from the stairs. Some races made the leap (NE, Draenei) but my gnomes, never. With the vendor out of the way, they all make it.
That was a forum suggestion (could’ve been in-game too) that resulted in a change. Small, mostly QoL and inconsequential but Blizz definitely reads and listens and does something when they can.
“Balance all the classes” is not a quick fix…and what exactly does that mean anyway? To me it’s like Disc priest dueling a paladin or shaman - neither one wins outright, a loooooong time beating on each other til one player falls asleep or gets called to dinner or something.
“Get rid of LFR” is another nonsense feedback. And then what? Force end-game groups to take your scrub alt to mythic raids?
There’s a lot of noise and garbage on these forums that people think is feedback. Technically feedback but still useless and nothing they can act on, even if they tried. People complain about something that affects them personally without ever thinking about the consequence that action may have in the entire game.
This game is fine as is - stuff changes constantly and today’s gripe is tomorrow’s forgotten memory. Chive on.
As someone who has been giving feedback for 8+ years specifically for the class designers, has had direct interaction with class designers both online and in-person, I’m speaking from firsthand experience.
Blizzard absolutely listens to community feedback. Most of the direct conversations swing back to the “not-Top 1%” when it comes to complexity and access to content. (i.e.: LFR is good because it opens up content to a large section of the playerbase, even if the content itself doesn’t truly reflect a “legitimate” raiding experience.)
“Designer’s Choice” is absolutely in play and the designer’s don’t necessarily agree with every change that gets pushed to live.
When Ion “dodges” when he says “We’re looking into it” he really means it. Ion might make the tough decisions, but he has a team throwing ideas and arguments for/against ideas. Iteration. Iteration. Iteration. It takes time. He cannot say “we’re thinking of this idea” because they might end up going with a different idea. You don’t need to like the answer, but at least understand he isn’t dodging.
I criticize Blizzard A LOT and hold them to high standards. I’ve excused them of playing spreadsheets rather than the game itself. I don’t agree with everything they do, but I’ll give them credit where credit is due.
Blizzard is still missing the mark on certain classes, especially shadow priests and shamans. They are a terrible letdown to play. Players propose many ideas, and they hardly ever make it into the retail game.
Players are frustrated with Blizzard because there is no communication with us, and maybe you can help find out why. There is always something to respond to, even if it’s not an item of annoucement. There are zero blue posts in the class forums, and this is a huge issue:
What exactly is wrong with shadow priests? Since patch, I’ve done the Darkshore stuff, the extended individual questline for Kul tiras excursions, some WQs and world bosses…I still do damage, rarely die, playstyle is still the same. Nothing wrong with shadow priests out in the world. Don’t know about end game raid meters…I don’t play that.
My shaman is still like 111 but she holds her own with world mobs and can complete leveling quests.
The thing that seems to have gotten most under my skin from the Q&A was the comment talking about spec when he said it was “hard”.
Maybe that’s the problem - maybe they don’t know how to talk about it because it’s too hard and they dont know how to fix it or even communicate it. Maybe communication is too hard.
I know that’s a little unfair but really… that was a pathetic response to issues being raised around classes. “Mommy, it’s too hard. I don’t wanna do it” is all I can think of now.
It’s your friggin job, dude. People are paying money they earn doing hard things things every day to pay for this game - and making fun, engaging, balanced specs is too hard? Figure it out. I assume that’s part of your job.
Feedback pretty blatantly isn’t listened to. Why does the Vicious War Riverbeast STILL not have a /mountspecial animation? The Horde mount has all its animations in working order. Alliance, though? Who cares. Let us drown in horses.
Case in point: and this is a RECURRING issue with quests.
Zuldezar: incursion quest. Get five crates. Whats happened? The crates are a free for all, so a player waits for you to start fighting an enemy, then runs in and grabs the crate. Crate VANISHES.
Now: this issue happened in previous quests, in Legion for example, and it KEEPS happening (remember the one where you had to heal a certain number of wounded soldiers and they vanished when someone else got there first? - same thing) again and again and again…after all the beta and alpha reports on how this is a bottleneck…it keeps happening.
Youd think that when the same problem is reported repeatedly, it wont crop up in new quests. i mean, they know it doesnt work and had to be fixed the last time…so why is it a problem now?
Right?
Wrong.
So why bother reporting it when the same design issue that was identified as a bottleneck the first time appears in new quests?
![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")