Time as simple magic is a possible argument, but hampered by lack of build-out, competing story data, and bad concept delivery due to word use.
Most of what I’m seeing in your post I think are trod ground I’ve already been over. This goes back to issues with writing at Blizzard. Continuity is time, it cannot be a series of events happening in order without time. How the second hand moves doesn’t change that it does move.
Moving time into a perception only works when you presume time is on both sides, and that it still has objective existence to even be for both sides. Otherwise it’s jello, just a dream-state. The Dreamer as an arc may cause it to be that in the end, but it is something which needs to be developed as un-real in the language presenting it in the story if that is their direction.
By making entirely different physical realities, they wrote entities that cannot interact:
The Twisting Nether is an astral dimension that lies in parallel with the Great Dark Beyond… volatile magics that pervade… intrude upon the physical universe, warping reality beyond measure.
Alleria and Turalyon would not be just feeling time differently, they would be warped beyond measure by interaction with its native matter. (Unless the obverse were suddenly alleged and they warped it. But that immediately falls back to Order won when Sargeras ordered the Legion; not liking what Order is doing doesn’t change it being Order.)
(That’s leaving aside that the Pantheon of Disorder realm doesn’t seem contained like the rest of the Pantheons if it’s the Nether, which is not a helpful concept either. If it’s an infinity, existing beside the infinite Great Dark, its infinity is a necessary part of the infinite nature of the Great Dark and defeating it would probably destabilize the universe and kill everything! Which isn’t even touching: Infinite as a status passively? Or because of growth? If Disorder is growing infinitely but Order did not… well, oops! Order not addressing growth in the thing being ordered is a rather funny mistake.
Basically, we end in an Order tautology, where the fights between the Pantheons will destroy the universe unless there’s an Age of Mortals subjugating the magical forces so they don’t continue to pull the strings of reality - that’s order.)
In the quote above, Danuser shifts language into “eternity”, which itself is actually a concept trap because eternity is not a lack of time, it’s an endless time. When you have an already alleged pre-universe state which lacks time entirely, eternity must be different, or just words - which doesn’t help story development. (No, adding time to primordial Light and Shadow is not a solution, it means they’re in the universe and subjects all things coming from them to the universe also, including the Nether.)
By inserting eternity as a state after life you end up with reinforced problems as there is no special separation of the soul from matter in the story development. It leads to the logical conclusion that souls are real matter carrying the person, this is reinforced once you say they can be divided like strands of a rope, or by a mourneblade.
Once souls are physical matter, divisible, but ultimately consumed by eternity… The source of the soul, its beginning in time becomes critical. And then, for every passing age of the universe, the number of souls going out drains the physical matter of the universe, only to go to eternity and never return… The Shadowlands would be destined to be the largest part of the universe over time.
You suddenly need a God as an excuse. Adding that now in the story would be devastating. Especially with the Maw now alleged in the story.
When we take things like the Eye of Aman’Thul we end up with weird problems of concept. If Order had so much power over time, how could they be defeated? You can’t kill someone who actually has source power over time, you can’t even meaningfully hurt them.
The vision and control that provides, on its face, means they know before you try and strike; and they can simply stop the interaction of matter in time to keep you from harming them. Controlling time, imparts control of matter, and grows to control of thought - especially where the soul is a thing of physicality.
This is basically the “why does God need a starship” cycle. Backing the understanding out to Arcane having a limited function over time remains the better answer, and avoids forcing an already defeated omniscience as a trait of the Titans.
So, their writing has not supported magic as it needed to. In their use of terms and ideas they have bound their story to concepts it really shouldn’t have been. And they have not built the foundation for mystery and wonder springing from but THIS IS magic (mountain in the distance)!
As an aside: In general, do not use this formulation:
In your opening paragraph it can read as an attempt at a putdown, AKA ad hominem. It simply isn’t something for subject discussion.
You’ll undermine having discussions if you build a habit of such turns of phrase.
The formulation is better following a presentation like: I think, given the fantasy setting… And moving out to your view of the thing in discussion. Ultimately, that’s all it is, a discussion of views.
I want to open with an apology, as I certainly didn’t mean that as a putdown, but rather as a, “I understand where you’re coming from.” It wasn’t well communicated though, so I do apologize for it.
I’m worried we might go in circles, but I’ll try again.
Time is a construct of the cosmic power of Order. Other cosmic planes experience continuity without Time. I would posit that this continuity is perception based. “I think, therefor I am.” I’d go so far as to argue this could possibly even be supported by the fact that the other cosmic planes of existence have life entirely native to them. Demons, stewards, etc… once these die in their native planes, their energy returns to the plane itself, and reforms as a new demon/steward. These beings are basically manifestations of the plane.
This is where my thoughts on time not being a thing in those planes, but rather continuity based on perception, come into it. Once a steward dies, it’s gone. It’s memories are gone. That it existed at all is only something those whom perceived it can know. A new steward is born, but without any of the memories or experiences. From that steward’s perception, things begin then, but for other entities in the Shadowlands that have existed beforehand and perceived the continuity of the Shadowlands, it’s quite new.
So, theoretically, if you killed everything in the Shadowlands, it essentially results in a full and complete reset. It’d be the Shadowlands starting over from scratch, with new native creatures forming from it’s power, and no possible way for the previous existence to be known. The Shadowlands doesn’t have that as a past anymore, because it never was. Without something present to have perceived it’s continuity, there is no evidence of anything ever having been before.
In the material plane, there is evidence of things existing before. We can see the remnants of worlds and civilizations and such, but these other cosmic planes don’t have that. They don’t have energy or mass/matter as we understand them as concepts. There is a primordial energy which can emulate matter and life, but without an active perception, everything reverts back to a state of pure energy. Time doesn’t play a role in it at all. These forces aren’t beholden to time in the slightest.
Thank you. As I said, I assumed it was more a turn of phrase than statement.
I spend a fair amount of time trying to think through “depersonalizing” things I write to people. It is a real challenge with current society, where so many things around us push us towards forming our concepts in that way; even when it isn’t what we want, or intend, to do.
That’s a major part of my complaint about the story: It will go in circles. There are too many competing data points.
So, I voiced my view of the problems springing from all those data points floating around. How they make a uniform system incredibly difficult to formulate without drifting into adding to the story, and thus changing it. (While noting the vehicles they might be using or headed towards for rationalizing it all.)
Spymaster’s Update #2: I have been informed that, to the best of our knowledge , The Scarlet Crusade has been eliminated entirely. It seems that only the undead could truly destroy those who had tormented them for so long. The honor belonged to the Ebon Blade, who came to the Monastery to stomp out the Crusade for good … and to raise the corpse of it’s most recognizable Member, Whitemane, to become one of their Four Horseman. Thankfully, The Scarlet Crusade’s influence has dwindled in recent years. However, rats and roaches have a way of surviving , as is evidenced by the group dubbing themselves “The Scarlet Brotherhood,” whose only attacks come from anonymous pamphlets sprouting absurdities.
Page 109 9f Exploring the Easter Kingdoms.
The Scarlet Crusade is wiped out. The Scarlet Brotherhood is just a copycat group as it seems. While I understand why some would believe that this is the end of the Crusade, it seems like they left it open ended for them to possibly return in the future.
I quoted it, responded to it and posted the the parts of the book you left out where it clearly explained that painting the Light/Void as wholly good/bad is wrong.
I don’t think you can claim to be a fan of conciseness when you repeatedly make entire threads repeating the same incorrect treatises making same handful of incorrect arguments while abandoining entire other threads.
They emerged from the essence of the Old Gods after they integrated themselves into Azeroth and drained it of its existing life. It is different in the exact details, but very much the same in terms of how the Void operates, wherein they don’t just create something from nothing, but alter and change what exists before.
Sure, here’s some more citations.
" Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one’s own ability to do it. That’s why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne." https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ask_CDev#Ask_CDev_Answers_-_Round_
And here’s developers explicitly stating how Xe’ra being convinced she’s right doesn’t mean she’s good for us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PBzHRc4FZY&t=1663s&ab_channel=lordmons&loop=0
And again…
“The Light seeks one path and shuns all others as lies. The Shadow seeks every possible path and sees them all as truth.” https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/U5IQKY6K35271505861653212.pdf
I was pretty explicit and in repeatedly pointing out that while the Scarlet Crusade and Onslaught took some big hits, that the Scarlets as a larger movement continues to exist in various forms that never actually renounced the Crusade.
It’s not head canon that The Scarlets continue to keep coming back in various forms and filling their ranks with paladins, priests, monks and other devoted followers of the Light despite repeatedly getting their butts kicked over the course of WoW’s history. Their ways are clearly attractive to some and they are not universally revilved by others of the faith. That’s how they managed to get a rep into the church to begin with.
The Scarlets are not enemies of Stormwind and obviously there’s people in Stormwind sympathetic to their goal of wiping out the Forsaken and retaking Lordaeron, among other things.
Xe’ra and the Scarlets align in that both are A-okay with genocide and other uses of force if it means wiping out people who aren’t followers of the Light. She’s already turned Yrel and the Lightbound into something akin to the Scarlets.
What can a radical religious/political group offer government officials they can’t get themselves? Political support. Supplemental muscle. Most importantly: plausible deniability.
We don’t yet name any specific nobles because the ONLY thing we know about the House of Nobles right now is that they’re among the people who don’t seem to be found of Anduin. Also that Stormwind’s been supporting proxies and sending troops to expel the Forsaken from Lordaeron for a while now.
So we’ve established that I and dozens of other people who disagree with you are not part of your hate brigade. There’s no reason to bring them up whenever responding to me.
No, power levels don’t matter, because WoW has had antagonists at all power levels. Most of them less a threat than the Legion and Sargeras. We’ve stopped many threats that aren’t as mighty as the Legion with leaders as individually powerful as Sargeras.
Also, thinking that Yin Yang is about either being all good/bad, or one being just as bad/good as the other shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept. This would explain why you keep reducing these cosmic forces and various groups to being all good/bad. With less room for even the small amount of nuance WoW’s writing is capable of.
We’ve fought against the forces of the Titans and stopped the activation of the reorigination engine and battled its creator and didn’t take down the rest of the Titan watchers or even the Titans or Arcane.
Same rules would play out in a hypothetical “Tyranny of the Light” expansion possible to oppose Xe’ra and her allies without having to take down every single naruu or the Light itself.
You made one more post in the thread that didn’t adress anything I said and then abandoned the thread.
But the Light is capable of brain washing. It’s capable of lots of manipulation, up to and including brain washing. I was still pointing out how the Light can brain wash people when you just stopped responding. And now here you are, trying to declare the matter settled when it wasn’t and making the same wrong arguments.
So I’ll give you another opportunity to actually respond to my posts instead of just running off and making another thread. It’ll help keep things concise as opposed to having several threads all covering the same topics…
I was quoting A Thousands Years of War for lore about Turalyon; lore I think you keep ignoring because you’re fixated on him becoming an antagonist.
So people can’t be concise on each thread when they’re making multiple threads?
Drop the mental gymnastics. The Chronicles literally calls the aqir and n’raqi “physical manifestations of the Old Gods’ will”. Does it call humans, dwarfs and gnomes that too?
People needing faith/conviction to use the Light does not mean the Light itself feeds on conviction. You’re putting the cart before the horse.
And those quotes about Xe’ra and Light vs Void prove what you say about the morality of those powers but not your “feeds on conviction” claim.
The Scarlet Crusade themselves don’t exist anymore, only copycats and a couple of splinter groups.
Now that I’ve cleared up what I meant when I referred to the Scarlet Crusade as “Scarlets”, it’s clear you’ve chosen to move the goalposts on this point rather than admit you were wrong.
The fact remains that Yrel’s group are equal opportunity employers regarding race while the Scarlet Brotherhood and Scarlet Onslaught are human only, human supremacist groups.
Let me get this straight; you’re saying a small, widely-hated cult known to be fighting against Stormwind… can get support for Stormwind’s nobles?
This is only thing they could give, but they’re not required for that.
Why would Stormwind’s nobles need plausible deniability? Retaking Lorderaen and Light worship are popular in Stormwind.
The quote says “some” of the nobles aren’t fond of Anduin. That doesn’t mean they want to overthrow him. Can you explain why they aren’t fond of Anduin?
Citation needed about “dozens”, but I brought them up to disprove your accusation that I call anyone who disagrees with me a “hate brigade”; I use that term for four specific people (and three of them are currently vote-brigading for you now).
But the Light is one of the six fundamental cosmic powers, and the oldest apart from maybe the First Ones. They’re supposedly “a cosmic threat as bad as the Void at its worst.”
I never said Yin and Yang = good and bad, I used them as a comparison for the Light’s and the Void’s relationship to each other. But not stating that would explain why you keep misrepresenting my points.
While that is true, would you call the Titans evil? Do you think it was wrong to work with/for them in “Legion”?
We’ll see whether your theorycrafting is correct or not.
I already explained that I’d proved the point I was trying to make in that thread. Also, why am I the only person you keep debating about Turalyon when I’m not the only one who’s debunked your claims about him?
I didn’t respond because I made my point which was about Lightforging, not the Light itself. Now you’re just trying to make excuses to hide the fact that you lost that argument.
There is no evidence either way that the Mag’har either kept or lost their language or fighting style. It doesn’t prove either of us right or wrong; if anything, we both lose that argument. As for animal husbandry, I’m not sure if there is or isn’t any worg riding Mag’har among Yrel’s group.
What was my criteria for “the man”? You didn’t link that. Plus, Illidan forming a Cult of Personality in Outland doesn’t make him “The Man”, make him not an edgelord or disprove what I said about him.
Talk about mind games all you want, the fact remains that Turalyon still defied Xe’ra even while respecting her. You can respect someone and disagree with or oppose them.
You don’t need supernatural power to brainwash people – we can do that in real-life where none of WoW’s 6-7 cosmic forces exist - hence why I consider it possible that people can be brainwashed to follow the Light.
That thread was specifically about Lightforging itself not being brainwashing, which I think you’re in denial about. I proved you wrong, so you started another argument about the Light itself being able to brainwash, simple as that.
You quoted A Thousands Years War, to try and show how Aleria’s visions of the Light were false in an effort to prove the Light isn’t a threat, but kept leaving out the part where it says that neither are wholly good or bad.
And no, you can’t claim conciseness and keep making multiple threads on the same topics as the threads you abandoned. That’s not being concise.
I’m glad you finally found a place to stand your ground. Because you started off as pointing out the lack of non-villainous old gods- which you then changed to non-villainous void entities, then argued that such a category only includes the Old Gods, n’raq and aqir. And you’ve been defending the idea that the aqir are uniquely void entites pretty ardently for several days now.
Because there definitely exist non-villainous Void entities. Void entities that even fight against the Old Gods.
Seer Ixit, Kirix the Unraveler and are a couple of prominent Non-Villanous Nerubians; Aqir who long ago abandoned worship of the Old Gods. More importantly, they end up fighting with us AGAINST the forces of the Old Gods and their own Scourged brethren. They’re even willing to work with people despite their people being historically isolationist/xenophobic. And they don’t betray us afterwards.
Conviction: a strong belief or opinion; the feeling of being sure that what you believe or say is true. The Light needs faith/conviction to manifest amongst its wielders. The Light seeks conviction; it seeks a strong belief or opinion. It seeks the feeling of being sure what you say or believe is true, it seeks one path and shuns all others. The only way the Light can’t be said to be fed by conviction (and even that it feeds it in turn) is if you’re being very literal minded.
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The Scarlet Crusade themselves don’t exist anymore, only copycats and a couple of splinter groups.
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Yes. the other Scarlets. Who never renounced the Crusade.
I’ve been calling them Scarlets quite a while. And pointing out how they’re all either former members of the Crusade or members of Scarlet groups that haven’t renounced them. Show me the quotes where I state otherwise.
Yrel’s group is pretty staunchly Draenei supremacist, as they eliminate elements of Mag’har culture from the Mag’har they kill/forcibly convert and replace it with Lightbound Draenei stuff.
Also the Scarlet Onslaught did allow Undead at least-a decision whis is part of why they left the Crusade. But the Brotherhood pamphlet refers to Genn as a “a shapeshifting monster, cursed by a night elf plague to spend half his life as a beast” and they explain how they plan to kill all Worgen after he helps them deal with the Undead. So yeah, they discriminate too.
They aren’t widely hated if they and offshoots keep popping up and several of their views seem to be popular. As that, they can very much be viewed as pawns and allies of convenience for Stormwind’s nobility.
They can give Political support. Supplemental muscle.
Plausible deniability by placing the blame for any attempted coup on fringe radical religious/political groups you’re not officially a member of is very useful in the event said attempted coup backfires.
The quote when asked about how Alliance division hasn’t seen much political division like the Horde has, actually says…
“The Stormwind house of nobles is still present, and the writers say that there’s a strong chance the entire city of Stormwind isn’t united behind Anduin. “We’ve got to pick and choose who we focus on,” says Burke. “We’re telling so many stories and there are so many things we’re excited to show.”
You’ll have to ask the developers why they aren’t fond of Anduin.
Counting the number of individual posters, including myself, who’ve either corrected you as well as the various likes they’ve gotten adds up to at least 24 people who’ve either disagreed with you or supported arguments disagreeing with you, So yeah. Multiples of 12 counts as dozens.
3 people out of the DOZENS is not a vote brigade.
No, that’s your argument. People can see Xe’ra did a bad thing needs to be stopped from continuing that bad thing even if she’s not on the scale of Sargeras or the collective Void Lords.
But if I mischaracterized you; in what way did you mean the Light and Void are supposed to be like Yin and Yang?
Nope, I wouldn’t call them all evil. Definitely not all evil. Or all good. The Titans and Titan Watchers are not a monolith and their actions vary. So I think it’s wrong to work with some of them sometimes in Legion and right to work with others at other times in Legion. And I don’t make a big fuss about the idea of a Titan/Arcane themed antagonist.
I extend the same thing to the Naruu and the Light.
Come on. Allies turned enemies and vice versa is a staple in WoW’s storytelling.
I’m feeling very safe in my “theory” that we’ll have to team up with wielders of the Light in order to take down any hypothetical Light themed expansion threat.
But we’ll see if Blizzard does something different from that time they had us team up with Death Knights to defeat the Lich King. Or the time they had us team up with the Dragonflights to defeat the Deathwing. Or the Demon Hunters to defeat the Legion. Or the other denizens of Draenor -including several Mag’har clans- to defeat the Iron Horde. Or the Death Pantheon to defeat the Jailer. Or those couple of times when the Alliance teamed up with the Horde to take down the Warchief.
You’re not the only person I replied to in this thread before we started going back and forth. I was responding to several others before you. And in the last exchange the person actually agreed with me on how Turalyon could potentially be made into an antagonist.
And if you feel you drove the point home, why make more threads where you keep trying to argue many of the same points as if you didn’t?
But the Light is capable of brainwashing people. And Lightforging is one means through which it can.
And again, if you feel you drove the point home, why make more threads where you keep trying to argue many of the same points as if you didn’t?
That non-Lightbound Mag’har are portrayed as being killed/converted by Xe’ra’s forces and the Lightbound Mag’hat not ever speaking the Mag;har language, using Mag’har fighting style, not using Mag’har armor and replacing references to Mag’har culture with the Lightbound is all evidence that it’s happening. And no, there are no worg riders among Yrel’s group.
And again, if you feel you drove the point home, why make more threads where you keep trying to argue many of the same points as if you didn’t?
“A non-majority group that holds the majority of power in society.” wer eyour words. And Illidain was a leader of the Moonguard, a group of elite mages that held power in the Kaldorei Empire. He was the leader of the Illidari, a small group that held majority power in Outland and later, in the combined efforts to defeat the Legion. He’s an authority figure who, throughout his life, has held a majority of power in societies.
.But I clearly have it wrong, and he doesn’t count so feel free to finally give some examples of anyone else you think actually is the man that’s opposed to or likely to oppose Xe’ra.
You don’t need Lightforging to Brainwash people, but Lightforging can very much be brainwashing in thats what it’s of pretty much does everything brainwashing does. Brainwashed people aren’t literal puppets with no zero will.
Also, Tyrion never defies Xe’ra. He never goes against anything she orders. So how can he ever be said to have defied her?
You keep leaving out that I also quoted A Thousand Years of War to prove that Turalyon wasn’t blindly loyal to Xe’ra like you keep trying to paint him as. I’ll acknowledge the “not wholly good, not wholly bad” quote if you acknowledge the Void’s vision of a ‘predatory Light’ was identified as a lie. Plus we’ve seen worlds consumed by Old Gods, but not worlds consumed by Light crystals.
Concise: Giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive.
I started trying to be concise in this thread; I wasn’t trying to be concise previously.
I’ve stood my ground more than that. I broadened the category to beyond the Old Gods in response to your accusation, and did so to refute it.
Why didn’t you bring up nerubians sooner? If any count as non-villainous Void entities, they do. Though turning against the Old Gods doesn’t make them non-villainous. They don’t betray us then, but that doesn’t mean they’re on our side or no longer villains (look at what happened with the Mantid).
Also, that still doesn’t mean humans, dwarfs and gnomes are Void entities. Would you say they are Titan entities?
You were the one who said the Light feeds on conviction. While I suspect you’re moving the goalposts about what you meant when you said “the Light feeds on conviction”, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. But how is the Light still able to strongly effect those without faith in it - or opposed to it - as strongly as it does?
The Scarlet Onslaught renounced the Scarlet Crusade by becoming the Scarlet Onslaught. That’s what a splinter group is. See below for the definition (bold for emphasis).
Splinter group: a small organization, typically a political party, that has broken away from a larger one.
Citation needed. In this thread you only started using “Scarlets” after I referred to the Scarlet Crusade as that.
The fact remains that Yrel’s group will recruit from all races while the Scarlet Crusade, Scarlet Onslaught and Scarlet Brotherhood are humans first and only.
I considered whether the Scarlet Onslaught’s willingness to use undead counts as having non-human members. That’s a grey area, so I theorize they used the loophole of humans turned into undead counts as human for them. By the way, them working with undead is further proof of the Scarlet Onslaught renouncing the Scarlet Crusade.
Having sympathizers doesn’t change the fact that they’re widely hated. (Quote: lots of enemies). That’s like saying ISIS isn’t widely hated.
How can they give political support? They’re not part of the government. Stormwind is not a democracy. The Church of the Holy Light condemns and opposes them…
There’s enough alternative choices to make using the Scarlet Onslaught redundant as “extra muscle”. The Scarlet Brotherhood haven’t shown any “muscle” given their only “efforts” are pamphlets.
While your “deniability” theorycrafting was good, the Stormwind nobles don’t need to ally with the Scarlet Brotherhood or Scarlet Onslaught to use them as scapegoats. They could just kill Anduin and pin the blame on them; no working together required.
So some nobles aren’t found of Anduin and some are, they’re a house divided. Them allying with the Scarlet Onslaught or Scarlet Brotherhood is still a leap of logic.
Citation needed on those numbers and who exactly has “corrected” me besides yourself. While the people I named don’t fit the numbers part of “vote brigading”, they do fit the part of “artificially boosting a rating”. Count how many votes you have on this thread that aren’t from Cursewords, Renautus, Lenastus and Evelysaa.
Several WoW fans have been comparing Xe’ra to Sargeras or the Void Lords. Plus there’s the Light/Void relationship we’ve seen in lore that gets a lot of people theorycrafting.
For one, it’s canon that Light and Void cannot exist without each other. Light and Void aren’t a 1-for-1 parallel to Yin and Yang. But part of Yin and Yang is describing how clearly opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world. Does any of that sound like the Light and the Void/Shadows to you?
Why didn’t we get to call the Titans out about origination? Side note: having a group where everyone’s heroic or everyone’s villainous doesn’t automatically make them a monolith.
It’s good that you’re consistent.
While there’s a few “enemies turned allies”, how is allies turned enemies a staple in WoW’s storytelling?
Maybe, maybe not. If they do this, I don’t think Blizzard’s going to be subtle or nuanced. Look at the hash they made of the Forsaken’s, Sylvanas’ and Garrosh’s story arcs and how the Jailer has fallen flat from a story perspective.
Most of those aren’t “enemies turned allies”; only the Death Knights, Demon Hunters and Blue Dragonflight were. The only groups on Draenor we teamed up with to defeat the Iron Horde were the Frostwolf Clan, the Laughing Skulls clan, the stunted Arrakoa and the Draenei; none of them were “enemies turned allies”. We sure didn’t team up with the Gorian Empire or the Botani, to name two, against the Iron Horde.
They agreed with your theory of Turalyon being a villain if he was mind-controlled by Xe’ra. They did not agree that he’d willingly be unthinkingly loyal to her as you claimed.
Because some people, including yourself, keep staying in denial about those points.
You explained how brainwashing can be done, but not that Lightforging itself is brainwashing. You keep trying to move the goalposts in attempting to make me say it is.
See the reply after this icon >
Xe’ra herself never shows up in that scenario; she’s not even stated to be doing anything in that sermon beyond giving Yrel a vision. Citation needed about the language, the fighting style, the armor and the cultural references.
See the reply after this icon >
Thank you for sharing that quote. Even with me conceding that point, Illidan’s been an edgelord much longer than he’s ever been “The Man” both in-universe and in the meta, though you are right he has briefly been “The Man”. He rebelled against Cenarius’ teachings. He selfishly squandered the Moon Guard’s lives in Black Rook Hold, storming off when Lord Ravencrest called him out. He joined an omnicidal demon army because of magic addiction and envy of his brother, his backstory had to be retconned twice to even ‘look’ heroic…
Turalyon, Alonsous Faol and Tyrande Whisperwind to name a few.
Brainwashed people are conditioned not to question or oppose those who brainwashed them. Turalyon has done both regarding Xe’ra while she was alive, and more towards her after she died. The Lightforged Draenei on the Xenedar did not defend Xe’ra when Illidan attacked her or join Turalyon’s attack after she died.
Alleria’s visions of the Light destroying all were only a lie in the sense that the Light as an all bad thing is a lie. I.E. The not wholly good, not wholly bad quote is CRITICAL in understanding that the Light and the Void do have both good and bad elements and portray one another as being all one or the other, when they really aren’t. Also, an obvious warning that not everything shown through the Light is true either.
Again, making the same threads with the same topics and the same bad arguments over and over again isn’t giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words. It isn’t brief. And it’s not comprehensive. It’s repetitive. It’s long winded. It’s you going around in circles as you try desperately to avoid admitting when you’re clearly wrong.
And Seer Ixitm Kilix the Unraveler and the other free Nerubians we encounter are non-villainous because they don’t do any villainous things. Not being villain is the very definition of being a non-villain.
You decided to move the goal posts yourself because you know treating the Void like it begins/ends with the four Old Gods to prove it’s absolute badness doesn’t really help your case. But if others have the ability to get to you move your own goal posts, here’s hoping we can move them so you can eventually accept the legitimate idea of a Light based expansion antagonist and how it could conceivably include the likes of Xe’ra, Turalyon, Yrel, et al.
I still say humans are of the void. The Titans made Iron Vrykul, Earthen and Mechangnomes. It was the Old Gods’ Curse of Flesh that made Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes. Because taking the creations of others whether it be the land, the elements, constructs or other creatures and making them into something new is apparently how the Void ‘creates’ life.
I did. Conviction makes the Light manifest more powerfully. The Light itself seeks out Conviction and instills those it finds with even more.And in what sense does the Light not feed on conviction? Only in the literal sense where the Light has teeth and a digestive tract i.e. if we’re being willingly obtuse and literal minded about it.
In instances of the Light overtaking those of little/no faith in anything, I’d say it’s an obvious case of the original Light wieldiers’ conviction and connection to the Light, overtaking another’s relative lack of it.
Breaking away is hardly a renunciation when you share many of the same goals, the same uniforms, a lot of the same former personnel, and even part of the same name- with the MAIN point of contention is you feel the original group didn’t go far enough.
You do know what “citation needed” means, right? It’s not just a snarky comeback. Because I did start having to explain how there were more members of the Crusade and sympathetic members for the Crusade to draw on after you kept insisting the the Crusade was wiped out as a way of saying all sympathetic Light extremists who wear the Scarlet Crusades’ regalia and share it’s goals of wanting to to take down the Undead and destroy Lordaeron and lean towards human supremacy- were completely wiped out. When they very much aren’t.
Xe’ra didn’t roll into Draenor with an army either. She used what was already there. She doesn’t need to immediately bring Yrel and the Lightbound with her to Azeroth to recruit anyone. She can start with the Light followers already there. And any gullible adventurers, only to pull her whole “Assimilation is inevitable!” schtick as what happened with Illidan.
But even then, several Scarlets have shown that they’re willing to temporarily work with non-humans to accomplish their goals- even if in some instances they just plan to kill them later.
The Brotherhood temporarily accepts working with non-humans as allies as well. Right there in their pamphlet. And the Crusade has at times accepted non-humans. The idea that Scarlets cannot ever ally with non-humans is just not true.
A much more apt thematic comparison than ISIS would be the Christian revolutions of the 16th century that saw the overthrow and replacement of several Catholic rulers thanks in large part by their successors appealing to increasingly popular (but still unsanctioned by the Catholic Church/majority) Protthestant movements.
A group doesn’t doesn’t have to be a part of the government to have political support. They can spread pamphlets. Hold rallies. Spread messages. Monarchies can have internal uprisings as much as democracies. There are many in Stormwind who are sympathetic to elements of the Scarlets’ goals despite the official stance of the Church.
There are alternative choices to making the Onslaught and Brotherhood extra muscle. Like a Scarlet group composed of those stormwindians rallying around an effort to retake Lordaeron and finally eliminate the Undead once and for all with a heavy dose of Light extremism. They have a lot of experience raising paramilitary forces for that kind of thing.
Simply having your political opponents killed by a third party then immediately seizing power leaves you on much shaker ground than exploiting a growing fringe movement that can turn into more popular movements that deposes your political opponents through the work of the people who now also double as your army.
All the elements are there. You just don’t seem to be all that familiar with how extremist religious/political groups actually come to gain power. Especially if you’re using ISIS as an example of how it’s unreasonable for the Scarlets in any form to ever gain any political/religious influence-when that’s exactly what organizations like ISIS are so noteworthy and dangerous for doing.
Citation: this thread. You want to see the names and number of likes? Scroll up. How would citation even work when this thread is the reference document itself. People can just read it. My first couple posts have 20+ people alone.
But nobody gets rated on likes. Likes only have the value YOU assign to them, which is apparently a lot because you’ve spent several posts now complaining about how my posts have more little blue hearts than yours and how that means people are bullying you.
You have to stop blaming them for your own bad arguments.
In the sense of playing the same role as narrative villain/antagonist. But nobody’s arguing she should be a villain because she’s as powerful as those figures and the Light in general as bad as them at their worst. .
I think that’s more likely confusion on your part, as you are the one insisting Xe’ra can’t make a viable villain/antagonist unless she’s AS powerful and AS bad as they are. That’s you getting hung up on power levels and all bad being equally bad and the like.
So you can see how that contradicts with your earlier assertion that “Yes, power levels do matter if the Light’s supposed to be as bad as the Void at the extreme and its polar opposite ala Yin and Yang.”, right? Because, as you clearly explained, you already know that power levels and being as bad and all that doesn’t matter in Yin and Yang and there’s no reason why that precludes Xe’ra and a bunch of Light wielders being expansion villains.
If you know that the Titans aren’t a monolith, then you understand why it wouldn’t make sense to call all of them out for something bad when not all of them did the bad thing, right? Only the Titan-forged forces that built and tried to use the forge of origination got called out for it- when we beat them up.
Indeed. It’s also good when Blizzard’s consistent in holding the Light to the same standards as it does all other cosmic forces.
You know, for someone who asks for so many citations, you’re pretty bad at offering your own. Even the most basic of stuff. So how about this: first, you show us all the FEW instances of enemies/allies working together you’ve ever noticed. And, for every example of Enemies turned allies you cite, I’ll try to cite at least two more.
Yeah, but they still had us team up with some Forsaken and Orcs and Horde to stop Sylvanas and Garrosh. And had us team up with other members of the death pantheon to take down the Jailer.And later on in your own post, you yourself make the case for which Light characters are the most likely to oppose Xe’ra.
This was not in reference to enemies turning allies. I was more about how often it is for us to wield what would usually be considered the powers or potential allies of an expansion villain against them. Thus, when it comes time to face expansion villains using the Light, we’ll definitely have Light wielding allies and be using the Light ourselves as well.
But I wasn’t even thinking about how we’d fought with the Blue Dragonflight before they became allies. Thanks for pointing that out.
And since we’re on that track, I’d like to point out that we did eventually end up teaming up with the Iron Horde’s former leader at the end of WoD and in the Magh’har recruitment scenario. Enemies to allies again.
I never held out exclusively on the idea he’d be unthinkingly loyal to her as the ONLY option. But yeah, that’s the one thing we agreed on. But you seem unable to acknowledge the legitimacy of that because you don’t want to lend credence to the idea that Xe’ra and Turalyon could work as antagonists at all. Or the idea of Lightforged brainwashing.
Also, they also aren’t leaving this thread to go on and make multiple other threads.
So you abandon the threads in which your bad arguments are shot down, then make entirely new threads just to argue the same bad points that get shot down again, and repeat this over and over for months at a time… because OTHER people are in denial?
Lightforging is in many instances brainwashing people by doing the things that brainwashing does. You do know that brainwashed people still have free will, right? Brainwashed people aren’t mindless automatons. They think what they’re doing is correct and not see their decisions as the result of brainwashing.
She never shows up, but Yrelsays that she’s acting based on the visions given to her by Xe’re thatlead her to believe her marching across the Dark Beyond and bringing order to countless worlds is her destiny. And her start on Draenor includes killing/forcibly converting other peoples and making no effort to preserve any elements of their culture in he the process.
“The Light Mother has blessed me with visions. I know that one day the Army of the Light will march across the Great Dark Beyond and bring order to countless worlds.” https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sermon_of_the_High_Exarch
The Lightbound orcs have none of their Mag’har culture represented in anything while they’re being killed and forcibly converted. Nobody can cite examples of them preserving their culture because it’s not happening.
So now there’s a new criteria where “the Man” can’t ever defy someone’s teachings? Or do something selfish? Or do something out of envy? Or was he just “the “the Man” when he wasn’t actively doing that stuff?
Was he “the Man” at the time when he opposed Xe’ra?
And you’re trying so also argue that Turalyon has a history defying Xe’ra’s authority and is likely to continue doing so too, while also trying to prop both of them up as an example of “the Man”.
So you do think it’s likely that these representatives of the Light and “the Man” would oppose a villainous Xe’ra.
And here you were being all worried earlier that they’d uniformly portray all followers of the Light and “the Man” as bad. I’m glad you could point out how that’s unlikely to be the case.
And yet, brainwashed people are capable of questioning and even opposing people who brainwashed them. Not that Turalyon has ever done either.
Also, Xe’ra never asked anyone to attack Illidan. Turalyon did that on his own accord.
We get to see precious little of their thousands of years of interactions. The only explicit order he receives in the Thousand Year War book is a single direction to step forward- which he does. And when Xe’ra later gives the order to others to have his wife imprisoned forever, neither of them resist.
And in WoW, she only shows up long enough to try and convert Illidan before getting destroyed.
Keep in mind, we’re on this tangent because of your instance that Turalyon has a history of defying Xe’ra and is likely to continue doing so. So what orders has he defied?
Do you like to have endless arguments about the meaning of a word? Or do you like to participate in the contests “Who was offended more?” and “Who was given less?”? Or do you just love reading the story forum?
Welcome to the realm of disappointment.
Just because you don’t like my arguments and like the idea of the Light being bad and Turalyon being bad… doesn’t make my arguments bad. I add new information in each thread on the same topic; adding old points alongside new ones doesn’t make them wrong.
There were nerubians summoned to help the Old Gods’ minion Zek’voz in Uldir. And for those new nerubians you name-dropped, remember what happened with the Mantid in MoP and BfA? There’s reason to be wary. Humans are no more Void than they are Titanforged.
I said non-villainous Old Gods, and you accused me of cherry-picking. I then said non-villainous Void entities, and you accused me of moving the goalposts (even when broadening the criteria seemed to benefit you). You can’t have your cake and eat it too, you’re just using excuses to attack me.
The Light is summoned by willpower or faith, it doesn’t feed on conviction. Conviction is not willpower, and no amount of semantics will change that. The Light doesn’t feed on conviction any more than Elemental spirits feed on the element their physical form is made of. Because by your logic, another’s antipathy should weaken or cancel out the Light if it’s stronger.
“Hardly a renunciation” is still a renunciation.
I only said “citation needed” to get you to give evidence for your arguments. Also, can you make an argument without putting words in your opponent’s mouth like you are with me here?
Xe’ra is/was a mind-reading hardliner. The Scarlet Onslaught and Scarlet Brotherhood can’t fool her by faking allegiance with non-humans. Say what you will about her, she wasn’t racist or backstabbing. To those groups, the non-humans aren’t allies, they’re catspaws, there’s a big difference.
You didn’t give any names, dates or places in regard to what you called “Christian revolutions of the 16th century”. And you didn’t even use the term “Reformation”. And you spelled “Protestant” wrong as “Protthestant”; you’re in no position to critique my analogy by swapping ISIS for your generalization of the Reformations.
You keep repeating that part about people being sympathetic despite me pointing out that any good reputation the Scarlet Crusade and any of their offshoots or sympathizers had is long gone. If they have experience raising paramilitary forces, why are they resorting to pamphlets?
People of Stormwind are already galvanized to retake Lorderaen and fight the undead (especially after the Scourge ran amok following Sylvanas breaking the Helm at Icecrown), no Light extremism needed. The Church of the Holy Light could launch a campaign to retake Lorderaen and they’d get all the support and credit, plus steal the thunder of the Scarlet Onslaught and the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Turalyon’s already got his eye on reclaiming old Alliance territory, and since he was willing to disagree with and defy Xe’ra, there’s no way he’d ally with an extremist group that makes Xe’ra look like a sweetheart by comparison.
Wrong. I used ISIS because the Scarlet Onslaught and Brotherhood’s extremism is comparable to ISIS. The Scarlet Crusade, Onslaught and Brotherhood are all despised, like ISIS is (hating them is one thing the Alliance and Horde agree on). ISIS claimed they have a Caliph to try and rally all Muslims to their cause, just like the Scarlet Brotherhood claims to have Calia’s child as a member to rally humans to their cause.
You most liked post on this thread has 12 likes, and some of those 12 are from people who dislike me so I question those people’s motives for upvoting your comment. You are right about the value of likes, which applies to the likes everyone gets, including me.
There are people who’ve compared Xe’ra to Sargeras or the Old Gods. I cite power levels because the Light is the opposite cosmic force to the Void, but it looks far less powerful based on what we’ve been shown - with no explanation as to why - and has goals ranging from benevolent to, at worst, less bad than the Void.
No it doesn’t. It’s clear a “Light Crusade” expansion is yet another “cosmic threat” story, and the Light and Void have been set up as opposites since at least Burning Crusade.
The Titans gave the order for reorigination and for the device to be set up. Can’t we even bring that up with them?
Not the ham-fisted, retcon-filled way Blizzard is doing it.
You were one who said that enemies turned allies and allies turned enemies are staples of Blizzard games. The burden of proof is on you.
I considered the possibility but considering how Blizzard’s trying to pull the rug out from under people with the villain-batting of Yrel among others (you think I’m the only one who criticizes and opposes that?), they’ve earned my skepticism.
While I thank you for explaining, those few examples don’t mean that, as you claimed, “it’s a staple of Blizzard games”.
You held onto the idea that he’d choose to serve Xe’ra, and when that point was refuted you jumped ship to saying AU Xe’ra would mind-control him. Which you tried to push on people in other threads too.
My arguments weren’t “shut down” as you claim, some parts of my arguments were proven right, a couple proven wrong and the rest we don’t know about either way.
What does Lightforging do that brainwashing does? When have we seen it do that in canon? Brainwashed people avoid questioning or defying their superiors while we’ve had several examples of Lightforged individuals doing that.
The fact remains AU Xe’ra never shows up in that scenario, nor gives any orders. She’s not even name-dropped, there’s only one mention of her title. I cited the preserved clothing, you’re in denial, and you can’t cite them losing the parts of their culture I said because we don’t see them being taken away. Where do we see Yrel’s group destroying their records or clothing?
I won’t repeat what I already answered about Illidan. To answer your new question, no Illidan wasn’t “The Man” at that time.
Why do you keep bringing up Illidan as “The Man”? I didn’t present him as “The Man” until you proved he has briefly been in that position in the past.
Of course. For one, Tyrande worships Elune, and Elune’s connection to Xe’ra via Elune’s Tear/Light’s Heart contradicts the new lore. But me discussing the possibility is me giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt; I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Light Crusade” expansion drops all nunance and ends up as “His Dark Materials” in MMORPG form.
You’re in denial about Turalyon because you want him to be a big “Light zealot” baddie. Illidan murdered Turalyon’s CO/guardian in front of him, and Illidan is one step away from the demons Turalyon had been fighting for centuries; makes sense that Turalyon would lash out.
Turalyon’s obeying “one” order to step forward and defying Xe’ra’s distrust of Alleria using the Void “totally” proves he’s a Light fanatic and that it’s not just your headcanon.
He defied Xe’ra by working with Alleria. Quote;
"As they traveled, Alleria told Turalyon the truth. Or at least part of it.
“The visions I saw were not from the Light. That was why I wanted to go alone,” she said.
Turalyon wasn’t too bothered. “Wherever they came from, Xe’ra believed them to be true. That’s good enough for me,” he said. “There are other forces in the universe. If they want to aid the Light in destroying the Legion, I have no objection.”
“Xe’ra would.”
A hint of a smile played on Turalyon’s lips. “I trust her wisdom. But I trust your instincts, too.”
A Thousand Years of War. Page 22
Also this;
“Turalyon studied her face. He knew her too well. She appreciated what Lothraxion was saying… but she didn’t believe it. “Alleria, go. Leave.”
Pain flashed across her eyes. “No.”
“I wish you could stay.” Turalyon’s words held no anger, only agonizing truth. “Xe’ra will not allow that. She will… You have to leave, Alleria. While you still can. You don’t know what she will do.”
“I know precisely what she will do. And I know what will come after that.”
A great and terrible presence filled the hall. Turalyon felt holy wrath coalescing around Alleria. He stepped next to her. “Xe’ra, please, show mercy,” he said.”
A Thousand Years of War, Page 42
Why continue this argument when you keep misrepresenting me and my points, @Tammy? You won’t change my mind or silence me that way.
Do you like to get the last word in? That’s a trait I sometimes have too.
Are you so eager for a “Light Crusade/Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo. Starring AU Draenei and Naaru” expansion that you try to shut down anyone who criticizes it?
Do you want the Alliance as villains? Fine. But you don’t need Light extremism to get that.
Are you talking about me, Tammy or both of us, @Shernish?
Rather the forum as a whole. About the golden times of active forums after the announcement of the BFA, when people built theories of Sylvanas’ justification, hated each other, found fault with any words (one grandiose one), made bets, sang about the inhabitants of the forum, about the golden city, predicted unrealistic stories, drank green tea, smoked felweed, respecting traditions and … Demon. I forgot everything.
It was fun. At the very least, I felt “crazy enthusiasm”.
Mda.
This was the answer for Veshiae.
Any expansion would be better than a Light versus Void expansion to be honest, mostly because FF14 has literally done the concept already and Blizzard has put in almost none of the legwork needed to actually flesh out such a conflict.
To put it in perspective, Light against Shadow has been baked into the lore of FF14 since the beginning, generally always lurking in the background of every expansion as a conflict. The only changes to that concept within the lore have been the result of missing information being filled in, as opposed to any retcons.
By contrast, the current lore of the Light and the Void, the Void especially, is a retcon. Light and Shadow (Void wasn’t even a thing yet) were considered part of the same cycle, even by the naaru themselves. They were primal forces that were both natural parts of creation, instead of being opposed and at war. While some groups of a given alignment might have used one over the other, and the different energies had more dominion over different things (Light having more sway over emotion/heart and Shadow more sway over the mind), there was no real overall plot.
This was the case for a decade, to the point where even unequivocally good aligned characters would use Shadow based spells and people didn’t bat an eye. That was the entire reason for the Twilight Cults to use ‘Twilight’ magic, I.E a form of magic crafted from corrupted elemental energies. While they might have wielded Shadow as well, it wasn’t on the same tier of ‘bad’ and thus was about the same as someone using fire or frost.
The current state of Shadow and Light is, literally, a retcon that only came about with Legion. Building an entire expansion off that would be ridiculous, we’re talking the fundamental building blocks of creation. Could we have built an expansion around the Void Lords (the original ones, the ones that wiped out the Ethereal’s homeworld and were basically just really big, hungry Voidwalkers)? Yes. But not the literal element of Shadow itself.
