“Oh, no come back? Ya burnt!”
That’s kind of what I mean.
People like the OP can say what they will… but we have yet to see an Orc wield the Light as an antagonist or as an ally.
This… Lightbound Orc could be many things. He could be a sort of AU Akama - biding his time to free his people against the oppression of the Draenei and the Light on AU Draenor. Or he could be a dutiful antagonist. Or he could be the key to dissolving the Faction divide.
There is new territory to be trodden.
He can’t be both an AU Akama and “new territory to be trodden”.
While the dutiful antagonist wouldn’t be too bad, it’s been done before in WoW; the Mogu, the Mantid Paragons and Nazgrim to name a few - the latter is also an Orc.
Nice as dissolving the faction divide would be, Blizzard has been committed to “keeping the war in Warcraft”, so I don’t think he’ll be doing that. Even then, there’s been plenty of peacemakers trying to end the faction divide in WoW.
I think the outcome I could tolerate most if Blizz has to go this route is AU Garrosh joining Yrel’s group either to atone for his dad’s crimes with the Iron Horde and/or a romance with Yrel. It’d be funny and telling if a “Light fanatic” Garrosh was a better person than MU Garrosh.
Plus none of this changes the fact that we don’t need Light antagonists for those good ideas you suggested.
If he did so to the Pillar Men theme, I could almost enjoy the idea.
Almost anything would be better than more cosmic power garbage. Faction war 3.0 is the sole exception.
Going to shuffle the last bit to the front because I’d like to establish this going forward.
I am not prone to simply getting the last word in. Many of your threads don’t even have me in them. You even commented yourself earlier in this thread that you thought I was ignoring you.
My goal isn’t to change your mind or silence you. Nobody can do that. But I can show other people- the majority of which are lurkers and not regular posters who may be unfamiliar with your bad arguments- why you’re wrong and show what possibilities a Light based villain/expansion could actually hold.
As you’ve stated yourself, you’re determined to not change your mind. As such, your’re basically working from a preconceived position and trying to argue everything backwards from there. That makes it easy to reveal how little supporting evidence you actually have. And how much contradictory evidence you’ve overlooked/ingored that actually shows why a Light based expansion could be pretty neat and how it could work.
The only person actually truing to silence people is you, by trying desperately and repeatedly to claim how there’s just no point in talking about any kind of “Light Crusade” expansion. Even in a thread where you propose a Light vs Void expansion, you can’t actually provide any real details and spend the majority of your post trying to discourage the idea of a Light Crusade expansion.
And you’ll probably keep ignoring me and others by trying to find ways to abandon these discussions only so you can make a redundant thread where you repeat your same wrong arguments, but the idea of “Light Crusade” expansion is worth discussing anyway.
It’s not that I don’t like your arguments on some personal level. Your arguments are wrong. This whole thread started because you don’t like the idea of the Xe’ra being bad and Turalyon possibly being an antagonist and how you you can’t see it being done with any nuance. And it’s one of several threads you’ve made after you abandon old threads wherein you ignore all the arguments and actual lore that show you to be wrong.
The Nerubians that helped us didn’t worship the Old Gods like the Mantid did. So no, they aren’t going to do what the Mantids did.
The Nerubians that followed Zek’voz in Uldir were freshly made by Zek’roz… by corrupting Titan replicators. Because corrupting what already exists is how the Void creates. Just like. The Titans made Iron Vrykul. The Old Gods made Humans through the Curse of Flesh. You just got done arguing ardently how Nerubians are Void entities, but refuse to extend that to other entities that meet the same criteria.
And just like not all Humans serve the Old Gods and are non-willainous in the story, but some do, the same goes for Nerubians.
You were indeed cherry picking by restricting yourself to the 4 known old Gods as representative of all the Void. If you didn’t think you were cherry picking, then why’d you expand your criteria? I can’t change your mind, afterall. You did that yourself.
Don’t blame me and others for your bad arguments…
You accuse me of trying to play word games by arguing that the Light isn’t related to conviction, it’s all about “willpower” and “faith”, as if those aren’t common synonyms of conviction or that a dictionary definition of faith doesn’t include something that is believed especially with strong conviction. Also, antipathy isn’t the opposite or absence of conviction, so I’m not seeing how that factors in.
An incomplete one that doesn’t include them renouncing any of the various things that identify them as Scarlets as a whole or concern what actually makes the Scarlets or even the Crusade specifically dangerous.
So you don’t know what a citation is and think it’s just a snappy come back. If you want evidence, just ask for it. But you’ve also started asking for evidence for stuff that is really basic stuff.
For instance, you can’t even count how many likes a post in this thread has gotten and demand they be provided for you, and even when they are, you miscount them. And you’re trying to make historical analogies without seemingly understanding how religion and politics interact historically. And you say you can identify recurring narratives in the game, but then demand to see examples of those recurring narratives as proof they exist.
You’re going overboard with the whole feigning ignorance thing to the point where you’re making your arguments weaker by showing you don’t actually know or are incapable of finding out some easily referenced facts.
You do at least agree that there exist Light extremists who wear the same regalia as the Scarlet Crusade’s regalia and share it’s goals of wanting to take down the Undead, reclaim Lordaeron and lean towards humans over other races, right?
Xe’ra is a mind reader. The Scarlets are not. Xe’ra’s played others as unwitting pawns in her plans before. Like the time she gave the Horde/Aliance champion all kinds of visions and had them retrieve Illidan without letting the champion or even Illidan himself know that her plan was to forcibly Lightforge him against his will. She’ll show and tell what she wants to show and tell to accomplish what she wants. And she doesn’t let stuff like free will or genocide on a world scale get in her way. She will utilize literal demons if she wants to.
As far as I’ve seen, no member of the House of Nobles has been actually named in lore yet. I expect them, like many characters relevant to such a hypothetical expansion, to be revealed in time. But devs have confirmed they exist in a reference to how Anduin doesn’t have total support in Stormwind and the source of potential future Alliance internal conflict.
Also, the Protestant Reformation didn’t just have religious implications. It had many political and social ones too. Noblility and Churches played politics using religious factions and several rulers rose/fell/fought off revolutions as a result.
https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/10/31/political-consequences-protestant-reformation-part/
You’re trying to argue that a real world event wherein changes in the ideologies among medieval Christians that started in spreading pamphlets ended in overthrowing dynasties is less relevant than your comparison to modern day ISIS when talking about the Scarlets?
Also, we’re nitpicking spelling now? I’d rather not get that petty, but if you consider that critical to this argument, I can only hope you don’t mind being held to the same standard.
The church of the Holy Light doesn’t have an army, though. It’s dependent on the Paladin orders and the Grand Alliance for that. Stormwind has an army, as do the Argents, but neither of them are all about taking out all the Forsaken and retaking Lordaeron if Anduin has any say. That’d leave only the Silver Hand, as led by Turalyon.
I think having some combination of Xe’ra, Scarlets, and the House of Nobles and other extremist factors instigating a major conflict with the Horde is better than putting it all on Turalyon, the Church of the Light and Silver hand, if your desire is not painting Turalyon and the entirety of the Light and the Church as the antagonists the whole way through.
But he hasn’t disagreed with or defied Xe’ra. And if he’s already willing to wipe out people like you argue, what exactly would he defy Xe’ra on if she were to show up? Especially if she starts putting the screws to him?
Yeah, but here’s the thing: ISIS managed to actually get significant support to the point where it had vast swathes of territory from Iraq and Syria with its own government and administration, it’s own economy, and enough influence that several governments’ militaries and paramilitary groups had to engage in a prolonged campaign on multiple fronts to halt its advance. And even after that, ISIS and affiliated groups continue to be active and influential in various parts of the world. They aren’t gone.
So if your argument is that they can’t do any of that because lots of people don’t like them, well that didn’t stop them before. And it’s not exactly stopping them now.
My second post in the thread has 20. That’s 8 more than 12. But now you’re trying to claim they ALL personally dislike you?
You have to stop blaming other people for your own bad arguments.
So then why would you invoke the Yin Yang in citing good/bad/power levels when you know it has nothing to do with one being AS powerful and AS bad as the other? And who are these people comparing Yrel to Sargers and Old Gods at their worst as opposed to just generally being a potential threat on her own terms?
The Warcraft franchise started with an interdimensional invasion and has featured antagonistic immortal entities wielding the powers of Arcane, Light, Void, Fel, Death, the Elements, and other cosmic powers before. The first expansion in WoW saw us going to another world to fight a cosmos spanning threat. It’s possible to have a story including cosmic power threats and still tell a better story than Shadowlands.
The Titans didn’t give that order. The Amathet did. But sure, we can bring it up without calling all the Titans out for something not all the Titans didn’t personally do. Now, if Eonar personally was granting visions to someone directing them to wipe out Dwarves, Gnomes and Humans because of their infection with what Curse of Flesh, and picked up Turalyon to start forcibly trying to transform him into a being of Arcane/Life energy against his will, I’d hope Blizzard would have us call her out and be able to oppose her too. And if other Titans try to leap to her defense, then they can get a piece as well.
You’re over here denying Blizzard is even capable of doing it and shutting down all discussion of how it could be done better.
And you agreed that you’ve seen it a couple of times too, so you know I’m not lying. I’m not asking you to show anything you don’t think exists. I’ll tell you what, for every example you give of this recurring element you already know exists in WoW, I’ll give three.
Because we both know they’re there. Apparently so many examples that it’s too many for you to want to bother naming.
So then you don’t consider Turalyon, Velen and Tyrande likely to oppose Xe’ra?
And yeah, I’ve seen people criticize Yrel becoming a villain. I think it definitely could have been done better- in that should have actually shown us the process she worsened over a wider period of time. Preferably as part of some larger story/expansion about a kind of Light crusade. But it wasn’t bad because of any silly idea that Xe’ra, the Light, or Yrel’s supposed to always be good and shouldn’t be capable of doing bad stuff. And definitely not the ugly argument that Xe’ra and the Yrel are doing isn’t so bad because the Mag’har “deserved it” and she’s somehow being merciful.
You not only acknowledge all my other examples- which weren’t even meant to be illustrative- but you added more. I mean, if it’s a narrative trope something that happens every single expansion, as part of the expansion’s central story, often the central conflict, and gets explored from different angles repeatedly, what else would you call it?
I held out from the beginning that Xe’ra could use any manner of tricks to bring Turalyuon to hr side. Because I, unlike you, fully recognize that Xe’ra is being set up as an antagonist, is a bad character and is absolutely able and willing to coerce people to her side. Up to and including brainwashing via the Light.
No, your arguments were shot down. Nobody can actually shut them down. You just choose to leave those threads rather than admit you’re wrong and then create new ones.
Light brainwashing involves making people see and to a certain degree feel what you want them to see/feel, while also being able to omit stuff that you don’t want them to see. We see it when characters are given a singular vision via the light that turns out to not be true. We see it when we’re flat out told that the Light is being used to convert Mag’har to the Lightbound. Xe’ra was even blinded herself because she was so convinced that Illidan would be her champion that she ignored any possibility that he’d resist her.
Xe’ra is granting the visions to Yrel and in contact with her. Yrel’s acting under her guidance.
And the clothing you tried to act like was Mag’har clothing actually originally appeared as Lightforged Draenei armor in Legion. It’s not Mag’har in origin and never appeared in WoD. There’s nothing about the Mag’har culture being preserved as the Lightbound Draenei exterminate/forcibly convert them. We can’t cite what’s not there. And if it’s not there, you can’t argue that the Lightbound are letting it exist.
Illidan met all the criteria you gave at the time for “the Man”. That’s why I brought him up. At the time of him defying Xe’ra, he was being selected BY HER to be a member of an elite minority tasked with leading her larger Army of the Light. And even after that, he went on to continue to be a leader among the elite, only for the rest of the Illidari and collective forces of Azeroth. And he wasn’t doing any of the stuff he was doing in the past.
But why wasn’t Illidan the man at the time he opposed Xe’ra?
It’d make more sense for WoW, rather than go the route of His Dark Materials or any other specific literary work, to go the route of Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Legion, etc. Wherein we team up with on group wielding a power source to oppose the bad guys using the same power source. And something something about learning to get along with old enemies along the way.
I’m not denying anything. Even in my hypothetical scenario where he’s antagonistic, I’ve always argued the likelihood Turalyon’s ultimately going to end up coming over to our side against Xe’ra in the end- likely due to his love for Alleria’s being the deciding factor in a dramatic scene.
You’re the one who wants to shut down any consideration that he could ever be antagonistic or follow along with Xe’ra as she does anything bad. You even seem to have trouble grappling with the reality that Xe’ra’s done bad stuff and the devs have already explained how she’s being set up as antagonistic
This what I mean when I say you’re not capable of much nuance.
So where does he disagree/stand up to Xe’ra? Because Xe’ra never told him not to work with her. She told Alleria SHE won’t work with the Void. He tells Alleria to leave because he fears what Xe’ra might do, not that he has any plans to actually stop Xe’ra from doing anything. And when indeed, Xe’ra eventually orders Alleria to be indefinitely imprisoned, Turalyon doesn’t fight back or stop following Xe’ra or anything.
He just keeps going on about how he trusts both, and there’s clearly conflict to be mined for later in a dramatic reversal, but when push came to shove, the last time he had to choose between the two, he ultimately sided with Xe’ra.
I’m eager for a lot of potential WoW stories. If it were up to me, the last or even next expansion would’ve been set primarily on/around Kezan.
But I’m also not opposed to the idea of a “Light Crusade/Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo. Starring AU Draenei and Naaru” or the idea of elements of Alliance as villains. Neither are the Devs, apparently. I think there’s potential there too. That’s why I don’t shut down the argument of it as a possibility, as you do. I try to argue not only how it’s possible, but how it could be done well. As opposed to you, who opposes the very idea at a conceptual level and tries to argue about why it’s so bad an idea that the very thought shouldn’t even be entertained.
Which is just not true.
But you are clearly so eager to try and discredit the very idea that you keep making threads obsessing over it.
Incidentally the Amathet use the Light mostly and outright stated that they would become one with the Titans(https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Amathet#cite_note-2)…
Beings can ascend to become Titans… Explains why Argus when effected by Aman’Thul’s Time Spell became a bunch of Constellars: Argus in all likelihood used to be a bunch of Constellars.
The Amathet if they became a Titan would have been Light Titans dedicated to the Sun… Not Order Titans.
The fact that the Amathet knew they could join the Titans indicates that the Titans knew this as well… Aman’Thul appears to be a Titan who knew nothing of his own origin so the artificial Titans must have surfaced later on…
Yin Yang incidentally doesn’t mean Good and Evil as Balance is considered Good while Imbalance(towards either Yin or Yang) is considered Evil in terms of Yin Yang.
It would be cool if we found out the Titans were made and not born. Self-made deities that imposed their own will on the Universe to order it away from the natural state into something entirely inorganic. Now that would be way more interesting than what the Titans currently are.
As much as I want more nuance to the Light, I want the Titans to be objectively evil. With Tyr as the only exception, but only because he’s spent thousands of decades hiding among them as a shape-shifter (this is canon) and living among mortals on Azeroth, he got the “mortal experience.” I want him to side with The Old Gods.
Created by whom?
Self-made. What is it like? Like “earthly life”: an accidental accumulation of spare parts that began to engage in self-copying?
If the unborn Titan is infected by the Void, then … What did the Titans predict there? The end of reality or something like that? Since Titan is fighting on behalf of the Lords of the Void, will it be a Void expansion?
Tyr is a Titan Keeper(like Freya, Ra-Den, Thorim, Loken, Mimiron, Hodir, Archaedas and Odyn) not a Titan. Aggramar, Golganneth, Aman’Thul, Norgannon, Sargeras, Eonar, Argus and Khaz’goroth are Titans at the least.
The Titans are beings of Order at the moment and that was because Aman’Thul was convinced to make sure all Titans were converted to Order.
Eonar could have easily originated as a being(or an amalgamation of beings) of Life that Aman’Thul converted to Order. Same for the other Titans.
Argus(an amalgam of Constellars) and Aman’Thul(a natural Titan) for all we know are the only Titans who started out as Order.
Aman’Thul isn’t even known for certain to be the first Titan to exist or awaken(the Chronicle merely states him being the first to awaken is in legends while not confirming said legends as fact) merely he is the only one who knows nothing about his existence.
Aman’Thul if anything might be one of the few natural Titans in the Great Dark Beyond with the rest in the Order Realm(possibly not even serving as World Souls but as traditional members of the Pantheon of Order).
The Light of course would like nothing more than to create it’s own Titans. The Void Lords tried to convert a Titan to Void so why wouldn’t the Light try to convince the Amathet through the Sun to become Titans of Light?
The Highborne Night Elves were stated to be on their way to rivaling the Titans through Azshara’s leadership so the Amathet presumably become very powerful Titans of Light.
Fun fact: The tyrants among the Titanforged are either Mechagnomes(invented due to Yogg-Saron the Old God of Death whispering into Mimiron’s head) or Light Users(Amathet and Odyn specifically).
Constellars aren’t Titanforged but merely allies of the Titans with Constellar Designates having once served Sargeras whom they would call in to Re-Originate the Planet.
Aggramar so far never made any attempt to Re-Originate any planet in Lore. He avoided wiping out the Plant Life on Draenor because he cared about Life just like all other Members of the Pantheon outside Sargeras.
Makes one wonder about Sargeras’s origins… If like Argus he is an amalgam of beings then what sort of beings? The only beings that seem unrelenting about forcing their point of View are beings of Death and the Light…
Same
I personally would’ve preferred is One (1) Member of Each Pantheon was Evil™.
Ergo my Ideal AU Cosmology
I envy your ability to put your thoughts into spreadsheets. The data in visuals are amazing.
Please get a writing job at Blizzard already, they currently have openings. See, what you proposed is way better than what the story is actually gonna be.
Thank you, I have made many and it’s taken me hours
I started a few months ago and only now feel like all my charts are fairly stable haha
Baal could single handily save WoWs story with his ideas 
I love that you put Elune in the pantheon of Order, that makes way more sense with the constellar than her being in the pantheon of Life.
This has gotten me more excited for lore than real wow lore. Xalatath the Violet Empress YES. yes to all of it. I’m so glad you also see Xal’atath as a genderbent Nyarlathotep. Yes!
That does have a lovely ring to it
Yeah! And I still need to sit down and write the stories but basically I explained it here:
Made a new Twitter specifically for WoW ideas and rants because they’re uber-long threads and my followers are from too many communities and it feels awkward lol
After Melkur (Dark First One) tried to consume Pacha’ma (Earth Mother), the others put her essence in Azeroth to save whats left of her mother, since Azeroth is the literal center of the cosmos, the first world the Elemental Pantheon created.
But because the Earth Mother was “gone”, Elune and An’she (who had “more” of the Earth Mother’s powers) took over her duties for Life in the cosmos, so Morigana (Winter Queen) and Erivana (Summer Queen) are both her students, and that’s why Druids use both Order/Light.
Likewise Shubnanet and Ahriurgos took over Death when they banished Melkur.
Ergo our Life/Order/Light vs Death/Chaos/Shadow tendencies.
Not neccessarily, maybe constant headaches would be why they were always so cross.
First off, I was just theorizing about why you kept replying. With that out of way, let’s get to the meat of the discussion.
We’ve already had Light-based villains prior to BfA (and Legion if you consider Xe’ra a villain) and you know it.
I said you’re not going to change my mind, not that I’ve determined not to change it, stop trying to twist my words.
We’re on opposite sides of an issue, so by your logic you’re working from a preconceived notion as much as me. But the lore, as it was when I started this thread, supports my side more than yours. Also, your “Light Crusade” ideas involve, among other things, reframing established lore, and we’ve seen how poorly received that approach is with Shadowlands and the Jailer.
Arguing against something isn’t trying to silence someone; there’s a difference between debate and censorship.
I don’t give details on the Light vs Void expansion because it’s not my responsibility to do the writers’ job for them, but I’ll consider making a thread about how I think a Light vs Void expansion should go.
You kept getting proven wrong about how Turalyon could be a villain, so you kept moving the goalposts because you’re fixated on that idea and refuse to give it up. Xe’ra was just poorly written all around, and I oppose the notion of retconning the Light to have a bad side; “nuance” seems to be a dog whistle for contrarian, subversive or edgelord content these days.
The Nerubians weren’t Old God worshippers anymore, but what they are is up in the air, so we can’t assume either way on them.
When the aqir and nraqi emerged, they were immediately fanatically loyal to the Old Gods. When the Curse of Flesh mutated some of the Titanforged into humans, dwarfs and gnomes, did they immediately become loyal to the Old Gods or the Void like the aqir and nraqi? Admit it, humans, dwarfs and gnomes are no more Void entities than they are Titanforged, your claim about them has been debunked. Just drop it.
I expanded my criteria as a show of good faith. It doesn’t mean your accusation was correct. Why did you jump from one accusation to another when I made a show of good faith?
I brought up antipathy as a rebuttal to your attempts to play semantics, since - using your method - it’s a fact that antipathy is a synonym of disbelief.
What class is my avatar on the forums? I played through the Death Knight starting experience, which shows the origins of the Scarlet Onslaught and a renunciation of the Scarlet Crusade. Plus, abandoning the Scarlet Crusade and heading to Northrend goes against their goal of reclaiming Lorderaen.
“The Scarlet Crusade is no more. Long live the Scarlet Onslaught!” - High General Brigitte Abbendis, founder of the Scarlet Onslaught (from the quest “the Scarlet Onslaught Emerges”)
I rest my case.
I asked for proof of what you claim is a recurring narrative. I did count the likes on a post for one comment in this thread. Which comment of yours in this thread got 20 likes?
You accuse me of not understanding how religion and politics interact historically when you gave barely any information about the Reformations? How rich! If these real-world parallels make it into the game, given Blizzard’s track record and the current zeitgeist, there’s good reason to suspect this will be a one-sided commentary on real-world issues with all the nuance of a Seth MacFarlane cartoon.
Why are you trying to trap me with your “Light extremists” question?
Xe’ra’s plan was to Lightforge Illidan, and she was honest about her plan for “Illidan, Champion of the Light”; you even said she couldn’t imagine he’d be unwilling due to her “singular vision”. Gotta love those mental gymnastics of yours.
You really hate Xe’ra, don’t you? Your headcanon that she’d use demons falls flat, especially since we don’t know how Lothraxion joined the Army of the Light and we now know the Nathrezim were created by Denathrius. Will you blame her for the creation of the Burning Legion next?
Several members of the House of Nobles have been named, look up “House of Nobles” on Wowpedia.
These nobles from your theorycrafting and that dev interview would be yet more new characters added to the game to retcon past events and justify the current plot… and we all saw how “well” that worked with the Jailer.
I cited you misspelling Protestant as one more example of how little you know about the Reformations at the time. Pettiness wasn’t my intention and I wouldn’t take offense if you corrected my spelling.
There’s a big difference between Martin Luther – a known professor and theologian – publicly nailing his Ninety-five Theses to the door of a church… and the Scarlet Brotherhood’s anonymously delivered pamphlets with unverified claims.
The Paladin Orders and the Grand Alliance by themselves still have more than anything the Scarlet Brotherhood and Onslaught combined could offer combined. What are the numbers of the Argent Crusade? The Scarlet Onslaught? The Scarlet Brotherhood? Plus what’s left of the Scarlet Onslaught are holed up in Northrend. A fraction of a splinter group and a few anonymous conspiracy theorists an army do not make.
You being in denial about Turalyon disagreeing with Xe’ra doesn’t help your case. And I didn’t argue he was willing to wipe people out
How much of the Middle-East is Iraq and Syria? How much of the entire world is the Middle-East? ISIS was not a global threat. The terrorist attacks did a lot of harm, but had no change of making nations convert to Islam, even through fear. Do you think ISIS could beat France, Russia, China or Australia in a war? What state is ISIS in now? Where is their “Caliph” now?
Remember, I said the dislike of the Scarlet Onslaught and Scarlet Brotherhood is only one of the reasons against what you’re saying.
Thank you for clarifying. The comment I saw had 12. Now if only you’d stop trying to make a strawman of my argument. Can you tell the difference between “some” and “all”?
That comparison came from a variety of threads, youtube commentators and posts on the forums. Will take awhile to find the sources. I already explained the Yin-Yang parallels. And I said Xe’ra – the Prime Naaru, was being compared to Sargeras and the Old Gods, not Yrel – the Draenei.
And the “interdimensional invasion” “going to another world” and “cosmos spanning threat” tropes are being increasingly considered overused or cliché. Several people in this thread alone have said they’re sick of the “cosmic wars” stuff.
Trivia: The Warcraft franchise began with “Warcraft: Orcs & Humans”, released November 23rd, 1994. The Light was introduced in “Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness”, where Turalyon also debuted, released December 9th, 1995. The Faceless Ones were introduced in the Warcraft 3 expansion “Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne”, released July 1st, 2003, and the Void itself wasn’t introduced to the franchise until the pen-and-paper RPG game also released in 2003… though they weren’t connected until Vanilla WoW along with the Old Gods. The idea that the Light and the Void were actively fighting each other was introduced in Burning Crusade, same expansion where the Naaru debuted.
Who put the re-origination technology there in the first place? Who appointed Odyn and Algalon to the positions they had? Your analogy doesn’t work because you’re saying if Eonar tried to wipe people out. Yrel, at worst, is doing the “join or die” approach. Also, Eonar would have no reason to pick Turalyon; you really are fixated on Turalyon being a villain, do you dislike him?
I deny it because even if they could have done better, they haven’t. And that story concept relies on retcons, bad writing and railroading.
Go ahead and give me those names, then. Seeing something a few times doesn’t make it a staple.
You’re trying to put words in my mouth, but at least you somewhat admitted, as I’ve been saying, the story wasn’t done well. What do you think the AU Draenei should’ve done about AU Grom and the rest of the Iron Horde?
The Draenei had plenty of reason to war against the Orcs without Light fanaticism. They could’ve been warring against the Orcs because they wanted vengeance for the Iron Horde, nothing more.
Shoehorning in the silly “holy war” angle was redundant and destroyed nuance in the story. Instead of both sides having a point – actual nuance; not what we got, which was the writers tried to sweep the Iron Horde under the rug and pretend it’s “poor, innocent Mag’har vs mean, old Draenei”.
AU Grom deserved whatever he got at Yrel’s hands. I was rooting for her during their final showdown.
I wouldn’t’ call it a staple of Warcraft. I await your list of enemies becoming allies?
The writers have got an edgelord fixation where they want to have their cake and eat it too by having MU Xe’ra jobbed by Illidan and villain-batting an AU version. Antagonist or not, Xe’ra is a poorly written character. Making Xe’ra an antagonist is like how Daenerys in Game of Thrones Season 8 went from “Breaker of Chains” to her father’s daughter and “Her Satanic Majesty” (the nickname for Daenerys in Season 8’s script notes after she burns King’s Landing).
Lightforging still isn’t brainwashing, you’re more devoted to that headcanon of yours than I am opposed to a “Light Bad” expansion, and that’s saying something.
Saying my arguments were shot down doesn’t mean they really were. Do you want me to necro those threads to show you how wrong you are?
What characters are given visions via the Light that turn out to be false? Stop pretending your headcanon and theorycrafting is canon.
You contradict yourself; You claim we see it with the Mag’har, then say we’re flat out told about it. There’s a difference between being told something and actually seeing it for yourself. We see no one being Lightforged willingly or otherwise in that poorly-written scenario.
What makes you think Geya’rah is reliable and unbiased? She omits the Iron Horde despite AU Grom being there. She resolves to genocide all Draenei on Azeroth despite supposedly only opposing Light worshippers…
Some did but not others. There weren’t fur collars and hoods on Lightforged Draenei in Legion. We can’t assume it’s destroyed because we don’t see it either. That’s the Problem of Induction. Also, everyone speaks English (or whatever languages Blizzard translates the game into for their international market), there is no evidence for languages being destroyed, so we can’t argue it’s getting purged either.
By the time of Legion, Illidan had lost all influence and resources apart from his cult of personality the Illidari and that Legion ship/guild hall on Marduun. He didn’t even have Outland or the Black Temple anymore.
Plus, the way she was written, I suspect certain writers were projecting authority figures from their own lives onto Xe’ra.
Some of Illidan’s dialogue in that cinematic was major edgelord cringe. “I am my scars.” “My destiny is my own.” “Your faith has blinded you. There can be no chosen one. Only we can save ourselves.” You could’ve added “Nothing personal, kid” and it would’ve fit right in.
Illidan knows nothing about destiny or fate. Even Xe’ra’s limited ability to see the future was more than what Illidan had.
That is why Illidan wasn’t The Man at the time he edgelord-ed Xe’ra to death.
While your theory here would be more sensible, the one-sided lack of nuance Blizzard has shown so far undermines the idea they’ll do what you’re saying; That one-eyed Mag’har scenario, their ridiculous attempts to whitewash Sylvanas, their “extreme order = extreme chaos” cliché in all of their franchises…
I, and others, have already explained why Turalon following AU Xe’ra willingly if she’s as bad as you claim AT ALL goes against his character. There’s a difference between nuance and author railroading. Or are you as incapable of understanding character progression as you claim I am of understanding nuance?
When Alleria said Xe’ra would disapprove, Turalyon did what he thought Xe’ra would disapprove of. When Turalyon and Lothraxion had their stand-off with Xe’ra, she compromised. When did Turalyon have time to plan? All he could do was stand between Xe’ra and Alleria and vouch for Alleria.
You think Turalyon should have deserted from the army because he disagreed with his CO imprisoning his girlfriend for fraternizing with the enemy?
Note how Alleria was imprisoned at the end of the story, but is later free. Xe’ra imprisoning Alleria was a clear statement that Turalyon wasn’t supposed to fight alongside her… but Turalyon did anyway. Theory time; Turalyon might have been the one to free Alleria.
I wasn’t arguing against the Alliance as villains for an expansion, and you know it. My argument has always included the fact that this “Light Crusade” story arc goes against the lore and is badly written. In fact, the way it goes against the lore reminds me of Shadowlands, like how the Jailer was retconned into the lore.
I’d be fine with a Kezan expansion. I would personally prefer the next expansion to be that and/or Dragon Isles with Azshara and Chromantus.
It should be noted that this isn’t the first time you’ve theorizied in this thread about me in an effort to try and discredit me that ended up wrong. Just a thing people should keep mind as they continue reading.
We’ve had all kinds of villains wielding just about every cosmic power source throughout Warcraft’s history. That doesn’t mean we can’t have an expansion where the main story’s focus is on a villain/threat that wields with Light.
How can you know I won’t change your mind unless you’ve already determined you’re not going to change it? You can’t see the future.
We’re on opposite sides of the issue, but not because I decided to oppose you. I and many others- after looking at the actual lore and story turns WoW was going down- saw the potential groundwork for an expansion likely involving involving Xe’ra, Lightbound and other elements as far back as Legion and early BfA. We came to the conclusion based on the evidence. Plus the developers have come out as saying that what Xe’ra wants isn’t good for Azeroth.
And obviously you see it all too. That’s why so many of your threads are about trying to discredit it. I don’t oppose you because of you. You’re just wrong.
You really need to stop blaming you being wrong on other people.
I don’t move the goal posts. I’ve stated several times in the past, that Turalyon being a villain would be the work of Xe’ra’s influence and that he’s likely to end up breaking free at some point, but at some point, I think it not just possible, but likely he’ll be an antagonist.
The Nerubians we encounter in Northrend are non-vilainous, thus fulfilling an example of non-villainous Void entities by your definition. So we know they’re that at least.
Not all humans, dwarves and gnomes followed the Old Gods, but many did. And many still do. We’ve fought plenty of them over the course of WoW. Creating humans, dwarves, gnomes and other creatures susceptible to the Old Gods influence was the whole point of the Curse of Flesh- and it worked.
My claim was correct. You just turned right back around and acted as if your show of good faith was actually something you never actually intended in the first place. Is it really a show of good faith when you didn’t intend to do it and when it ultimately works against your intentions, you accuse the other party of forcing you into it?
But I wasn’t playing semantics. The Light does feed off conviction. You’re the one trying to argue that the Light isn’t related to conviction, it’s all about “willpower” and “faith”, as if those aren’t common synonyms of conviction or that a dictionary definition of faith doesn’t include something that is believed especially with strong conviction.like
And Antipathy is not a synonym for disbelief. Antipathy is deep dislike, hatred, bitterness, rancor, etc. Not lack of belief or conviction or anything of the sort.
I wouldn’t rest your case there.
Because he doesn’t renounce the things that identify them as Scarlets as a whole or concern what actually makes the Scarlets or even the Crusade specifically dangerous. They’re still wearing the Scarlets’ uniforms, for goodness sake!
And as someone who plays a Death Knight, you should know that just because you get a quest to slaughter a bunch of Scarlets, it doesn’t mean Scarlets are gone from showing up in future expansions.
I told you where the quotes were. You even FOUND the quotes. And you’re still asking me where the quotes are. You just said the 12 people who liked my other post were people who don’t like you and made no attempt to differentiate who was what. I know the difference between all and most. You don’t seem to.
And this continues your pattern of trying to blame your own bad arguments on others.
Yes I accuse you of not understanding how religion and politics interact historically because clearly did not know about the political revolutions the Protestant reformations. That’s High school level stuff. And you couldn’t even be bothered to Google it yourself. You don’t get to try and talk down about anyone’s understanding of politics.
It’s not a trap. You’re just wrong and you keep making wrong arguments.
*No. Because the Scarlet Cruasde indeed approved of Shadow Priests like the Scarlet Onslaught. Demetria was a chief advisor in the Crusade. So that’s something the Onslaught didn’t renounce.
*Yes. The Scarlet Onslaught went to Northrend as part of their Scarlet’s battle against Undead. Only fighting Undead in Lordaeron and nowhere else isn’t a Scarlet thing, though. So again, not something the Onslaught renounced.
*No. As Scarlet brother doesn’t “only recruit men.” So another thing they Onslaught didn’t renounce.
I don’t hate Xe’ra. I just see what Blizzard’s doing narratively with her. The devs have been pretty explicit in showing and even telling us in an interview that the Light isn’t all good and that what she wants isn’t good for Azeroth.
She wasn’t honest about her plans to forcibly lightforge him against his will until she had already sprung it on him. And there’s no mental gymnastics involved in understanding how WoW has repeatedly communicated now that the Light is all about conviction and a tendency towards seeing only one possibility to the exclusion of others- so it’s not surprising that Xe’ra would be so convinced she’s on the right that she can’t even see how she’s doing bad things.
There’s probably a lesson there about extremism.
Every expansion introduces new characters to the game and retcons past events to justify the current plot. Even an expansion they’d do instead of a Light Crusade would do it. That’s not a reason not to do any given expansion.
You didn’t even know that the Reformation came with political consequences that saw the overthrow of entire dynasties and machinations by various nobles and needed me to explain it to you!
The Paladin Orders of the “Grand Alliance” don’t seem to have the same fervor the Scarlets do. The fervor that’s allowed them to come back from “being wiped out” over and over again, expansion after expansion because apparently their message resonates with enough people that they can rally new recruits to their cause.
Also, you know, Blizzard’s not going to just throw all of the Church and Silver Hand under the bus like that when the Scarlets and a bunch of Noblemen are right there.
No, I’m trying to argue that putting the onus on some combination of Xe’ra, Scarlets, and the House of Nobles and other extremist factors instigating a major conflict with the Horde is better than putting it all on Turalyon, the Church of the Light and Silver Hand.
YOU’RE the one trying to argue that Turalyon doesn’t need Xe’ra or the Scarlets to start wiping out people to retake Lordaeron and that he and the Silver Hand are capable of just doing it themselves.
At it’s height, around some 100,000 square kilometers. The region commonly referred to as the Middle East makes up a little over 6% of the world’s landmass and population respectively. No, ISIS didn’t represent an existential threat to France, Russia, China or Australia in a war. Their current Caliph is still at large. ISIS continues operating, not just in parts of Iraq and Syria that are not completely under control, but has an African branch that has been gaining territory in parts of Nigeria and Mozambique.
Again, I’ve had to explain things to you that you should either know or could have learned from a simple Google search, thus showing how little you actually know about ISIS. Even as you continue to incorrectly insist that the organization was never actually of any threat or concern.
Are you really stiill trying to argue that because ISIS is something that people could have and should have ignored? And that people can safely begin to ignore their current and future activities? Simply because it was incapable of toppling countries like Russia, China or Australia and installing regimes there that they were?
All those Youtube commentators used Yin and and Yang and why it means the Light and the Void have to be the same power level for the Light to be considered an antagonist? I’ve never seen it. I’ve only ever seen it used it in the sense that both are fundamental elements of the universe that exist in balance. Because that’s how Yin and Yang work, as you explained. And the Light or Void being out balance would be something that needs to be corrected, which has nothing to do with either being all good or all bad.
The incorrect argument that Yin and Yang means that one is bad and one is good and they have to be of equal power or else the Light can’t be a threat is just your argument.
So yeah, like I said: The Warcraft franchise started with an interdimensional invasion and has featured antagonistic immortal entities wielding the powers of Arcane, Light, Void, Fel, Death, the Elements, and other cosmic powers before. The first expansion in WoW saw us going to another world to fight a cosmos spanning threat. It’s possible to have a story including cosmic power threats and still tell a better story than Shadowlands.
Archaedas and Mimiron put the re-origination technology there in the first place. Amman’thul himself put Odyn and Algalon in their positions. Again, stuff you can learn from looking it up on Wikipedia and that you don’t need me to explain to you. Although it does show that you have no idea what you’re actually talking about in trying to attribute these things to the Pantheon in their entirety.
And you just keep trying to downplay or justify the genocide Xe’ra and Yrel are perpetrating. As if their “Join or die” approach isn’t wiping a lot of people out for what Yrel herself, calls “…upon you all to ensure that the future promised by the Light Mother is fulfilled. Purge the infection that prevents Draenor’s heart from being whole.”
I don’t hate Turalyon. I’m just holding him to the same standards I do all the other characters. A better question would be why do you keep trying to downplay and justify the actions of genocidal characters? You’re supposed to be anti-edgy.
No more so than any other expansion, really.
I already have. You pointed out more. Remember how we had this talk earlier about you asking for basic information to be explained to you. Or the example above where I literally pointed to the second post in this thread, and you still asked for evidence? And you say there’s a few examples, but can’t be bothered to name them- not even to prove me wrong in my claim i can name three times as many.
in continuing to ask me to give you more examples of things you have already admitted exist, you’re playing dumb and denying they do.
And we’re supposed to be listening to advise on how Blizzard’s story should go from you- who can’t even identify the franchise major recurring themes?
You claim I put words in your mouth because you say stuff that you realize later is wrong and then try to correct it. I let you, largely because I know the next thing you’re going to say is just going to contradict your earlier point or be just as wrong.
Case in point: You’re still trying to act like all the Magh’har and the rest of Draenor deserve the genocide the Lightbound are perpetrating against them because of what SOME Mag’har did 30 years prior. Even though they were opposed by other Mag’har.
I don’t know what you think “nuance” is, but coming up with reasons why “genocide is actually okay sometimes” and acting like the Mag’har deserve what’s happening to them isn’t “nuance”. Making Yrel into a genocidal leader of her own design rather than having her faith be exploited isn’t doing her character any favors, as you seem to think. You keep trying to claim you don’t like edgy stuff.
Well then you don’t know how to identify staple themes in the media you consume. Even media you decry as being incredibly simplistic and lacking in nuance.
Lightforging is brainwashing. I’ve shown how it does the exact same thing. But just like all this other stuff, you just refuse to accept things that contradict how you want the Light to be in the setting rather than how it’s been portrayed.
Because Xe’ra isn’t like Daenerys. Daenerys at least got to spend several seasons doing good and bad stuff, while Xe’ra’s introduction saw her manipulate us into bringing him Illidan so she could try to immediately Lightforged him against his will before getting destroyed. And then her AU self started a genocide. Xe’ra’s more like a character who shows you’re they’re a jerk by the end of the first episode and in their next appearance, they’re leading a genocide.
And you’re trying to accuse them of being edgelords while you’re over here trying to argue about why Xe’ra and Yrel should be protrayed- at the very least non-villainous- for engaging in genocide and nonconsensual transmogrificaiton.
And yes, your arguments were shot down. That’s why you keep abandoning threads and making new ones. As you’re asking my opinion, I’d rather you not abandon the threads to begin with, considering you simply end up making more covering the same bad arguments over and over again.
We see the things Greyah says are happening actually happening. She doesn’t “omit” the Iron Horde because they’ve been gone for 30 years and aren’t involved anymore. The Iron Horde was gone before she was even born. She is surprised to discover there are Draenei on Azeroth, and while she thinks they’re like Lightbound, when the Horde and Alliance make pace, she doesn’t continue waging war on them.
We’re told they’re being converted and wiped out and shown the converts helping wipe pout their own people and refer to them as savages… That’s not a contradiction. That’s more corroborating evidence.
There were fur collars and hoods on Lightforged Draenei in Legion.
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/642856-enstraa.jpg
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=125349/enstraa
I got that from the last thread you abandoned by the way, where you kept dishonestly nsisting that the Lightbound preserved Mag’har clothing as well.
The same thread where I explain, we see no mention of Orcish or use of any Orcish terms that the other Mag’har continue to use.
And yet here you are, in another thread, making the same incorrect statements and bad arguments.
But at the time, Illidan was a commander in the joint forces fighting the Legion. And the leadr of the revived elite Illidari.
And you keep trying to call him edgelord while you’re over here trying to justify and argue the nuances of genocide, of all things.
None of that prevents them from having good side Light users teaming up with us to oppose Xe’ra and her machinations/minions.
You try to talk down on Blizzard for lacking nuance, but if anything, you’re showing that you’re not only not that aware of the many finer details of Blizzard’s lore, but don’t understand political nuance or the game’s many recurring thematic elements.
Your fondation for not liking the idea of Light Crusade expansion, deciding your mind can’t be changed, and then working backwards trying to come up with reasons (which are wrong) about why nobody else should entertain the idea either.
It doesn’t go against his character if she manipulates him, especially if he has the possibility of breaking free of that manipulation later thanks to Aleria.
You’re trying to argue that Turalyon wouldn’t and shouldn’t have deserted from the army simply due to a disagreement with Xe’ra about imprisoning his girlfriend for fraternizing with her enemy, but that he would desert the army over a disagreement with Xe’ra because she urges him to wage war on his previous enemies and her enemies.
You keep shooting down every idea that would include Alliance characters and Light based characters being involved as antagonistic in favor of one where the Alliance gets to commit genocide and start wars, but the characters doing it don’t have to be the bad guys. You claim to be open to the Scarlets, but then also try to argue the Scarlets are no more. If you were fine with all of it and didn’t care, you wouldn’t be trying to shut the discussion down so desperately.
I remember when he was accusing you of being me…
And after he was accusing you of ignoring him… then he accuses you of needing the last word for replying?
What can you do? Just prove him wrong. As this thread has. As all his previous threads on the same subject have proven him wrong - which is why he dumps them and makes new ones.
Maybe change the title of this thread to :
“Respammed Anti Anti Light Megathread”
And then keep all your Anti Anti Light rants here.