No. You spout head canon and are proven wrong at every turn.
Like this :
That is wrong. False. Head canon. As of current lore : there was no soreness to address. Your head canon desires fly in the face of lore.
Yes. It is :
All your little name calling debate team jargon will not rewrite the lore to make your head canon the truth.
You call me names and attack the style of my arguments because the facts are no help to you.
You mislabeling my counterarguments head canon or ignoring them doesn’t prove them wrong.
Calling my dissection of your sloppy arguments debate team jargon doesn’t make me wrong, or make your arguments compelling or accurate.
What are you going to do now, Cursewords? Keep cherry-picking from my comments, or not cherry-pick in your next comment to try and prove me wrong?
You go ahead and fantasize away.
If I don’t post, you imagine me as part of a club devoted to caring about you enough to hate you.
Or you rant at other posters and accuse them of being me, like an obsessed psychopath.
You were already shown to be wrong :
That is false head canon that does not fit the lore.
You can call me names. You can accuse other people of being me when they point out you are wrong. You can dismiss the people and the style - but the facts remain. You are wrong.
The sockpuppet theory was a suspicion, not an accusation, as I already explained, and you know it. Deny my facts all you want, it doesn’t make you right or me wrong. You’re still so desperate to disparage me, and your attacks are so weak, you’re repeating yourself and still can’t respond to my full comments, only cherry-picked sentences.
The Old Gods didn’t make the Mythrax and Mantid. Those races resulted from the Old Gods’ Void essence seeping into Azeroth after the Titans ordered ordered it. The Void seems to reshape and alter things rather than create from scratch. Just like the Old Gods made Gnomes, Dwarves and Vrykul and by extension Humans, as they too resulted from Old God influence on Azeroth before the Old Gods intentionally gave them life. Similarly, the Locus Walker was born when his people were infused with void energy from a Void Lord.
It’s more like saying Elune created Xe’ra who created the Lightforged/Lightbound. Which is true.
I never stated that you claim the Light as all knowing. I’m saying the lore states that both the Light and Void have good and bad aspects according to the lore and recurring themes of the franchise. And part of the Light’s is that it sees only one path and follows dogmatically, and this has manifested in the narrative as some beings of the Light -like Xe’ra- and some wielders of the Light -like the Scarlets, Yrel and Lightbound- engaging in zealotry and extremism in pursuit of a cause.
Most don’t have names, but they’re led by Mariella Ward. All still in complete Scarlet regalia.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mariella_Ward
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=97829/onslaught-apostate
Plus the pilgrims in Dalaran.
You were responding directly to my post and not Curseword’s.
For the past several posts, you’ve been repeatedly arguing whether or not they even still exist so as to bypass the entire argument that they could be an issue in future content.
I quote and answer all of your comments. You’re the only one cherry picking, as shown in the previous post where you intentionally cut out quotes from The Thousand Year War that pointed out that the Light/Void are neither wholly good/bad. Also in how you’ve elected to stop even quoting me because i suppose that would mean you’d be expected to respond to what I say and not just ignore it and claim I said things you/I never did.
Again, you call out some 2-3 names and call them your hate brigade, but there are lots of other people in these threads than them that disagree with you. You stop responding them too. You stopped responding to me in another thread. You’ve already stopped responding directly to my posts and even stopped quoting me altogether in this thread.
Tammy, your counterarguments are either based on sloppy research, misguided or you’re deliberately moving the goalposts to try and misrepresent my arguments.
The mantid are one of the descendant races of the aqir while Mythrax was a type of n’raqi. It was the aqir and the n’raqi who emerged from the organic matter of the Old Gods and were employed by them. I didn’t use Humans, Dwarfs and the like because the Old Gods didn’t make them. There’s a difference between emerging from the substance of the Old Gods and pre-existing beings getting altered by them, do you see the difference? The Ethereals were existing beings altered by the Old Gods, just as the Titanforged were. I specified Void entities and that mortals using or later infused with the Void don’t count.
You wrongly accused me of trying to present the Light as flawless. If it was flawless, it would be all-knowing or capable of seeing everything, and I haven’t presented that point here. Questioning whether the Scarlet Crusade still exists and demonstrating they were wiped out during Legion (the Scarlet Brotherhood and Scarlet Onslaught are separate groups) isn’t the same as trying to downplay their evil - you originally accused me of trying to whitewash all followers of the Light.
Mariella is first encountered after leaving the Scarlet Onslaught when the Priest PC saves her from being executed for apostasy (we learn of this from another apostate). After that she joins the Conclave, so she’s no longer a member of the Scarlet Onslaught and therefore doesn’t count. Also, tell me, why did Mariella leave the Scarlet Onslaught in the first place? We find Scarlet Brotherhood propaganda in BfA (in the Calston Estates, which is Horde-controlled territory, funnily enough), but can you name any in-game character not already part the Scarlet Brotherhood themselves who expresses support for the claims in those pamphlets?
I said to Cursewords in a previous comment to them, quote; “Here’s an olive branch; if Blizzard decides to drop the “Light bad” story angle and retcon it out, that’s not the end of WoW. There’s plenty of other directions the story can go, we don’t even need Light fanaticism to have Alliance bad guys.” That’s what I was referring to, and you also responded to that quote even though I wasn’t talking to you. Can’t you read the exchange of comments between me and them?
You only answer cherry-picked parts of my comments, not the whole comment. I don’t call everyone who disagrees with me my hate brigade because I’m smart enough to know disagreement doesn’t equal hatred and not tar everyone who disagrees with me with the same brush… as you just admitted. I respond to those others too, and in those cases me and them either conceded we both have a point, they were proven right (on other subjects) or they don’t respond either. I’ve addressed every point you raised in your latest comment; I don’t have to quote you every time to do that.
To get things back on topic, I have another question. How is Xe’ra supposed to be a comparable threat to;
Plus they all need weapons of at least planet-destroying power (or another being at their power level) to kill them. Xe’ra hasn’t even destroyed one planet, doesn’t want - and isn’t trying to - destroy the universe unlike them, hasn’t been canonically confirmed to have mind-control anyone and can apparently be one-shotted by a fel-junkie elf with eye lasers?
She most certainly is not a comparable threat! She is Pre-Launch and First Raid Tier at best!
The Villain of a Light Expansion will most certainly be a member of the Pantheon of Light and(considering how judging from the reaction Light’s Heart had to the Tears of Elune the Naaru Prime are supposed to be created by Elune who at the very least knows about the Archon) not likely to be as Archon-like as the Naaru are but closer to Zovaal or Denathrius.
I’m quite certain the Naaru’s personality is based on the Archon because Elune thinks it’s funny. The Player constantly poking the Winter Queen is compared to Elune so her making the Naaru act like the Archon as a prank while the natives to the Light act quite different wouldn’t surprise me!
What sort of personality would the Light have? Who knows! Perhaps it’s Pantheon is all about “There is only Power and you only have to claim it!” After all the Light seems to be drawn to Faith and Willpower.
The One True Path of the Naaru is suspiciously identical to how the Pantheon of Death works thus explaining why the Naaru obsess over it if they are indeed based on the Archon!
Furthermore considering Xal’atath has Mourneblade Runes not Void Runes I wouldn’t be surprised if the Blade was the one that carved out Zovaal’s Sigil and thus has a piece of Zovaal’s Soul and thus sees the Naaru as beloved Brethren due to them being created by the Sister of the Winter Queen.
Xal’atath even mentions the One True Path just like the Naaru while the Old Gods(aside from possibly the Old God of Death) and Locus Walker all mention Infinite Truths & Infinite Possibilities!
Zovaal and his Soul Fragment of course would be the one who follows the One True Path(Oblivion) while the Naaru work off of misinterpretations of the Rings of the Loom of Fate in Torghast(just as much as the Void Lords).
Exactly! Yet quite a few fans latch on to an AU Xe’ra as the big baddie of a “Light Crusade” expansion or assume she’s just as bad as Sargeras or the Old Gods.
Is there even a Pantheon of Light anymore? Given that Elune’s Tear unlocked, Xe’ra’s core, there’s a connection. Yet Shadowlands indicated that Elune is more of a Life Titan. So either Elune’s going to get hit with the villain bat or they have to introduce some new character we’ve never heard of before, retcon them into the lore and expect people to accept them. Neither idea is going to go over well, especially the latter (look how poorly received the Jailer has been). Plus, An’she remains in the background and hasn’t done anything other than be a figure of worship for the Tauren and maybe the Arakkoa.
Also, is the Loom of Fates something the Naaru or Old Gods have accessed? We only learn of it in the Sanctum raid, otherwise it’s been tucked away in the In-Between until Zovaal pulled part of Korthia into the Maw.
That is an interesting theory about Xal’atath’s blade, but - correct me if I’m wrong - are you suggesting that Xal’atath is Zovaal’s soul fragment?
No, I’m pretty consistent and I always provide quotes and references to support my claims when asked. You’re the one who keeps saying people are accusing you of things, directly contradicting lore, and in the one instance you posted any kind of actual evidence to support your arguments, you cherry picked out the stuff that directly contradicted your own point.
The aquir and n’raqi emerged from the organic matter that already existed on Azeroth when inadvertently exposed to the Old Gods void energies. Just like Gnomes, Dwarves and Vrykul resulted from the inorganic constructs intentionally corrupted by void energy. and indeed, many of these entities serve the Old Gods as part of their cults… that’s WHY the Old Gods hit them with the Curse of Flesh. They weren’t mortals before, and the Old Gods created them to be more easily influenced and serve as soldiers so they do count. Neither was the Locus Walker mortal before becoming one with the void.
I accuse you of trying present the Light as flawless in the sense that it is only all good and not bad. The truth is that it has some bad qualities. And Xe’ra, the Lightbound, and Scarlets exemplify them.
On a related note, trying to act as if the Scarlets are all gone and ignoring the existence of the Brotherhood, Apostates from the Onslaught, Pilgrims, etc shows you’re still not exactly comfortable with them being in game either and would rather pretend they’re all gone. And you’ve never seemed to accept the fact that Xe’ra and the Light as a force can be bad or even how she could be a threat.
Mariella and her ilk left the ONSLAUGHT, which was an even more extremist sect of the Crusade. She left because they were extremists even by Scarlet Crusade standards. Mariella and her followers are still Scarlets and still wear the uniform, though.
We also haven’t seen any official response specifically to the pamphlets, but I already linked where a developer outright stated that Anduin is not universally popular as it relates to the House of Nobles in Stormwind and how they were quick to promote Tyralyon to steward of Stormwind when he was originally just commander of the armed forces. Also, the Scarlets are all about killing Forsaken and retaking Lordaeron and that’s pretty popular in Stormwind.
Why would you devote a single line to addressing Cursewords in the middle of a post directly replying to me?
You don’t call everyone your hate brigade, but whenever I and others you don’t consider members point out how you’re wrong, you can’t help but bring them up, as if they’re relevant to the discussion you and I are having. Why?
Anyone can see how I quote you in full and address all your arguments, and how you continue to avoid quoting or even directly responding to my posts. If you want to keep acting like you replied to my last post in the other thread-when you did not- I can also copy/paste/link that post so they can see that too.
Power levels in Warcraft don’t matter when determining antagonists and we can go from fighting Old Gods and Dragon Aspects in one expansion to mostly fighting foot soldiers and wild beats in the next. AU Xe’ra’s doing plenty of genocide with just her army of Lightbound on Draenor. On Azeroth, she’ll have an army of Lightbound, Scarlet converts and likely a chunk of the Stormwind army behind her, along with whatever McGuffin/powerups she gets in the story. That’s enough to kill and forcibly convert a lot of people and more than enough reason to need to stop her.
And it doesn’t mean we can’t also fight against Sargeras, the Jailer and the Old Gods.
No, you’ve deliberately ignored evidence I’ve provided in this thread and others, and you once again repeated old accusations against me, further proving me right. But credit where credit is due, you responded to my entire comment this time.
The aquir and n’raqi emerged from the organic matter that already existed on Azeroth when inadvertently exposed to the Old Gods void energies. Just like Gnomes, Dwarves and Vrykul resulted from the inorganic constructs intentionally corrupted by void energy. and indeed, many of these entities serve the Old Gods as part of their cults… that’s WHY the Old Gods hit them with the Curse of Flesh. They weren’t mortals before, and the Old Gods created them to be more easily influenced and serve as soldiers so they do count. Neither was the Locus Walker mortal before becoming one with the void.
Have you even read the Chronicles? You’re wrong on all counts. First, the aqir and n’raqi are purely products of the Old Gods. This is canon, including the Chronicles, quote (bold added for emphasis);
“Like gargantuan, cancerous pustules, the Old Gods spread their corruptive influence across the landscape. The lands around them seethed and withered, turning black and lifeless for leagues upon leagues. All the while, the tendrils of the Old Gods wormed into the world’s crust, slithering deeper and deeper toward the defenseless heart of Azeroth.”
“Organic matter seeped from the Old Gods’ blighted forms, giving rise to two distinct races. The first were the cunning and intelligent n’raqi, also known as the “faceless ones.” The second were the aqir, insectoids of incredible resilience and strength. As the physical manifestations of the Old Gods’ will, both of these races would serve their masters with fanatical loyalty.” World of Warcraft Chronicle, Volume 1, page 30.
As for Locus-Walker… in a CDev Q&A with Chris Metzen and Alex Afrasiabi, they confirmed that the Ethereals had physical bodies but lost them in their mostly failed attempt to protect themselves from Dimensius with arcane magic (I can’t post the CDev link because my rank isn’t high enough on the forums). No mention of them being immortal beforehand; the Ethereals are like a more extreme version of Void Elves, or are you going to say the Old Gods created the elves of Azeroth too?
I accuse you of trying present the Light as flawless in the sense that it is only all good and not bad. The truth is that it has some bad qualities. And Xe’ra, the Lightbound, and Scarlets exemplify them.
But are any bad qualities from Xe’ra, Yrel’s group and the Scarlets due to the Light or just inherent to the characters themselves?
On a related note, trying to act as if the Scarlets are all gone and ignoring the existence of the Brotherhood, Apostates from the Onslaught, Pilgrims, etc shows you’re still not exactly comfortable with them being in game either and would rather pretend they’re all gone. And you’ve never seemed to accept the fact that Xe’ra and the Light as a force can be bad or even how she could be a threat.
I explained how the Brotherhood, Apostates, Onslaught and Pilgrims aren’t part of the Crusade; are you attacking a strawman by pretending I ignored them, or did you not actually read my whole comment? And do you not know what an APOSTATE is?
Mariella and her ilk left the ONSLAUGHT, which was an even more extremist sect of the Crusade. She left because they were extremists even by Scarlet Crusade standards. Mariella and her followers are still Scarlets and still wear the uniform, though.
Exactly. Mariella and her ilk left the Onslaught, so they’re not members of any Scarlet group now. As for why they still wear the uniform; when did we have time to also pick up their wallets and a change of clothes while saving them from execution? The Crimson Pilgrims are equally likely to be former members of the Scarlet Crusade, Brotherhood or Onslaught as current members. Given the Alliance, Horde and Kirin Tor know the Scarlet Crusade and Scarlet Onslaught as enemies, how could current members of them openly walk around Dalaran unchallenged?
We also haven’t seen any official response specifically to the pamphlets, but I already linked where a developer outright stated that Anduin is not universally popular as it relates to the House of Nobles in Stormwind and how they were quick to promote Tyralyon to steward of Stormwind when he was originally just commander of the armed forces. Also, the Scarlets are all about killing Forsaken and retaking Lordaeron and that’s pretty popular in Stormwind.
The Stormwind nobles still know the Scarlet Crusade as enemies, especially through the Church of the Holy Light condemning them (confirmed by Metzen himself). Going from disliking Anduin to helping Scarlet Crusade supporters is a big leap in logic. Between that and the Scarlet Brotherhood having nothing they want or need, what makes you think the Stormwind nobles will work with them? Would you believe an anonymously given pamphlet with conspiracy theories?
Why would you devote a single line to addressing Cursewords in the middle of a post directly replying to me?
I shared what I said to Cursewords because you accused me of the same thing they did.
You don’t call everyone your hate brigade, but whenever I and others you don’t consider members point out how you’re wrong, you can’t help but bring them up, as if they’re relevant to the discussion you and I are having. Why?
I bring up those specific people because they keep trying to gang up on me, they share your views and attack me the same ways.
Anyone can see how I quote you in full and address all your arguments, and how you continue to avoid quoting or even directly responding to my posts. If you want to keep acting like you replied to my last post in the other thread-when you did not- I can also copy/paste/link that post so they can see that too.
Anyone can also see how you and them repeatedly cherry-picked me in your replies (before the latest one in your case). They can also read the rest of whatever thread you link, regardless of whatever parts you try and cherry-pick out of context.
Power levels in Warcraft don’t matter when determining antagonists and we can go from fighting Old Gods and Dragon Aspects in one expansion to mostly fighting foot soldiers and wild beats in the next. AU Xe’ra’s doing plenty of genocide with just her army of Lightbound on Draenor. On Azeroth, she’ll have an army of Lightbound, Scarlet converts and likely a chunk of the Stormwind army behind her, along with whatever McGuffin/powerups she gets in the story. That’s enough to kill and forcibly convert a lot of people and more than enough reason to need to stop her.
Power levels do matter if they’re trying to make “Light Crusade” part of a “Cosmic Powers at war” story arc, especially if they’re trying to claim the Light is as bad as the Void. Name one race the Lightbound successfully genocide-d; Was it the Mag’har who made it to MU Azeroth? The Ogres who chose to join them? The Botani who were almost wiped out by the Mag’har but also made it to Azeroth? Do you have actual canon lore about AU Xe’ra’s plans on Azeroth, or just theories and headcanon?
And it doesn’t mean we can’t also fight against Sargeras, the Jailer and the Old Gods.
I brought up Sargeras, the Jailer and the Old Gods to prove Xe’ra – both MU and AU versions - is neither as bad nor powerful as them.
Yes. Zovaal’s Soul Fragment would say lines like this:
We may face some of my brethren in this conflict… a prospect that delights me. Their power will be mine! They will pay for what was done to me long ago.
I know the naaru consider us horrors to be resisted. We do not share this view. They are merely beloved brethren that lost the true path. They will return to their masters… in time.
I do so enjoy seeing the shrine of a great enemy profaned by the spirits of its own worshippers. (at Sisters of the Moon)
A remnant of power lingers in this broken temple. It must be ours! Come, enter the circle and take it. (Sisters of the Moon defeated, note that this triggers a fatal interaction)
My mistake. It seems the upstart “goddess” still holds sway here. Oh well… (fatal interaction when attempting to absorb Elune’s power)
Naturally a member of the Pantheon of Death that isn’t the Winter Queen would consider a member of the Pantheon of Life an Upstart and not a true Deity like the Pantheon of Death.
Naturally her being the Winter Queen’s Sister makes her offspring the Pantheon of Death’s brethren.
Infact Afrasiabi(before he was fired) made it clear that Xal’atath’s insinuations of being related to the Old Gods are lies so her being Zovaal’s Soul Fragment is more than likely!
As for whom Zovaal considers to be his masters: Sylvanas called Azeroth a Prison and Zovaal stated that Death was never meant to be chained.
The First Ones have their base of operations at Zereth Mortis which is suspected by Fans of being the Sepulcher. Zereth… Azeroth…
Furthermore the Broker Documents in the Veiled Market insinuates that the Cosmic Forces were originally 7 Entities. It would not surprise me if all but the 7th(who is implied to envy the other 6 for holding something fast that it lacks which I would assume to be a Body) were imprisoned inside Planets.
How did Azeroth end up in the Great Dark Beyond? Xal’atath says this:
That fel edifice towering over this land pales in comparison to the grandeur of what stood here long ago.
This conflict is but a shadow of an ancient war that predated the meddling of the titans. Infinite armies clashed in ceaseless battle. But I’m sure your little war is impressive… in its own way.
This was always a place of power. Aegwynn was drawn here, and before her, the elves, and before them, the trolls. And before them…
I don’t believe these lands have seen such carnage since the Battle for K’tanth. Such a long time ago…
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Eternal Ones after capturing Zovaal dumped Zereth Mortis into the Great Dark Beyond to make it harder for enemies to reach! That of course would mean the other Cosmic Forces are imprisoned within the Cosmic Realm that their power embodies!
I want to make sure and reinforce what I’ve already said:
I really can’t find a good story coherence that’s acceptable to me in their assertions about how timelines and multiverses work.
And:
Such a model also doesn’t satisfy me in WoW.
Making it different requires it being. If it isn’t a thing in the Nether it cannot be different; we have time in the Nether, or matter cannot change there.
To expound some difficulty I see: To move things between a state of Order and Disorder requires that both have time. If time is not an existing, universally foundational thing, then Disorder the power becoming ascendant somewhere would actually have the strange effect of freezing things in the last state of Order… Disorder would become self defeating, making the achievement of time, as a power of Order, a tautology from which the other powers could not escape. (Oddly, it would very likely have locked the other powers out of the mortal universe, entirely, so, I don’t like that formulation. I can see the idea of a power over time springing from Order, not time itself; it can be thus limited and avoid making Order God-in-effect.)
Linking it to perception would make it a subjective experience of any given thinking being in the universe. That would certainly reinforce it as a dream-state story if that’s intended, but I don’t think it wise as a choice.
Extending that to say, Alleria; just by keeping to her original perception of time, she wouldn’t know there to be any difference in time in the Nether, it defeats the premise.
I do think, the most rational course is that the mortal universe is the result of the “precursor particles” of the different forces being made into “real” matter. That’s in my parenthetical paragraph above, just not said that way.
To take the imagery of a suspension, or dilution: We can add a drink mix to water but time and matter control suspension and dilution. We use disruption of their starting states (Disorder 
) to mix them when a stirring implement is used to move the larger volume of the water and allow for the turbulence that causes the breakdown and spread of the mix. Remove time and there is no way to spread the mix into suspension in the water.
If the elements you were trying to mix were so different that time and space existed for one but not the other they won’t mix; it’s not a good comparison for this, but, more like oil and water than a mix and water. The one is going to do something more akin to skimming over, or passing through in a bubble, without the ability to interact meaningfully with the other.
Thence my irritation: The Light sourced Naaru are flying ships through the Nether, causing Disorder from their disruption of its natural state, which can’t happen if time isn’t already present… Which is an Order thing? Three different Pantheon powers in a single act by one Pantheon’s beings…?
Now, to bring up another tautology problem: Sargeras, of Order, took over the Legion… and ordered it into an army to defeat the Void cosmos wide? Isn’t that… Order from Disorder? Is that why time is in the Nether? If so, Order won… it beat Disorder. Not liking what Order is doing does not change it from being… Order.
That’s the ordering God/The Dreamer trap I already brought up.
As I’ve said in other threads: We have competing story data. It does not reconcile.
We do not know what they think they’re saying about Sylvanas yet, the book next year will be the latest assertion, where they go is unknown to us. (Technically, a story has already set her as put in an afterlife that was nice, I guess is a way to say it, and then being removed from it. So your basic formulation isn’t what’s on hand now.)
The First Ones are out of the blue. We do now know yet if they’re an Xpac specific object, or more. Two main arcs in view right now are: Universal First Ones who ordered all. Shadowlands First Ones who only made the Shadowlands.
I think, so far, they have not crossed the line into living beings coexisting at the same moment with themselves. The perception of the story viewing things in an order is not an actual “these are literally exactly timed together”. The smallness of the difference is not relevant to there being a difference in time.
Souls… MAN, as I said: I don’t want to even go there with Danuser’s souls as a rope thing.
Steve Danuser: This is a complicated question. How do you deal with things like alternate Draenor? There was a Draka there. What is that Draka? Is she alive? Is she dead? Is she related to the Draka in Shadowlands that we see? Or is there another Draka? We know that in Warlords of Draenor, Velen of that universe died. Does that mean there is a Velen in the Shadowlands? But what about the Velen in Azeroth? All these things are very complicated questions.
The way I would have you think about it is think of a rope… If you look at a rope, it is one thing, right? It’s something that you can grab onto, you can hold it, you can see it; think of that as a character. Think of that rope as Draka or Velen.
If you look at that rope more closely, you can see there are different threads that make up the rope. There are different twines that pull together, and you can pull off one of these threads if you want. But it’s still a rope, and each of those threads you can think of as one of the realities of the character, one of the streams of time… There is a thread that is the Draka from Draenor we visited in the Warlords of Draenor. There is another thread that is Draka on Azeroth as we know her… And there are many other threads that could be other realities that we never peered into. But all of those threads at some time come together to make that rope. And remember also that, as you’ll see, that there are many characters in the Shadowlands when they refer to time, they usually say that time is not a construct of Death. Time and Death are not related. Death is about eternity, not linear time. The manner in which these threads come together, that can take a very long time from mortal perceptions. Those threads can be separated for a time, but sooner or later, they do combine to make one rope that is that character. You can think of it as the threads of that rope, all the individual threads, are just waiting. And over time, they will come together but they can exist as separate entities for a time. That still doesn’t change the fact that they are part of one rope.
Again: We need an ordering God/The Dreamer for THIS. And that is a whole new set of issues.
I was referring to a Tolkien letter in which he was asked about filling in the mythology in the background of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. He talked about working on it but finding it was unsatisfying to have pinned down; that it was like a mountain viewed in the distance, grand and majestic, but when you had gotten up to it and actually knew it first hand it was not the same.
Fantasy works really do best when swaths of their history and myth remain shrouded in a half-remembered past. It gives them great support and aid, and avoids activating people’s rational, modern mind.
Yvenathilm and I wandered into Xal’atath seeming to be a mourneblade from the runes elsewhere. Considering its asserted age it being the Primus’ blade for Zovaal makes sense.
So, you’re thinking of time as a concept for a fantasy universe as being virtually identical to time as we understand it in our universe. I don’t blame you for that, because it’s hard to wrap one’s head around things working in a different way.
Time as we know it is linked to space, the theory of general relativity, etc… The greater the gravity, the slower time is experienced relative to points with less gravity. I imagine in WoW’s material plane (where you find solar systems) and in the Plane of Order, this largely holds true. That doesn’t necessarily mean the same in other planes.
Now looking at Turalyon and Alleria whom experienced time much more slowly than we did on Azeroth, if we follow time as we understand it from RL, the gravitational forces of the Nether would have to be so intense those two would’ve been reduced to tiny little specks of matter. Or they’d have to have been moving at speeds likely in excess of the speed of Light which is also technically impossible.
So, automatically time as we know it doesn’t work in the Nether. Doesn’t really seem to work in the Shadowlands either. Instead what we see in both places is continuity based by perception. When it comes to the Twisting Nether, people like Alleria and Turalyon have their own perception of how time is supposed to work, while beings native to the Nether have their own continuities for events which have transpired within it. This is why there is only one Burning Legion across all timelines, because the Nether isn’t subject to spacetime as we understand it.
Did Blizzard ever really come out and say there was going to be a light and void expansion?
Where are the Light-o-lands leaks at?
They haven’t confirmed either. I recall seeing an interview with a dev on the Youtube channel BellularGaming where they stated Yrel and her group would return, but I’m not sure if that dev still works at WoW given all the people who quit following the lawsuit. So that could be scrapped, still happening or up in the air.
“Light Crusade” and “Light vs Void” are two of the several fan theories at this point, with some having more evidence than others.
Firstly, let me just say no one is hate brigading you. You are personally accountable for the reactions you get.
Secondly, just because people refuse to reply or engage with you doesn’t mean you have won the arguement. You are not entitled to a reply from someone because you lure them into an arugement. Only a psychopath thinks like that, The people choosing to not respond to you in most cases are taking the high ground.
I was on a forum vacation thanks to letting my temper get the best of me in a previous reply to Finninbas, I was muted for a week and could only give likes… oh and despite the fact that you have used the phrase “strawman fallacy argument” in every single reply to your accused attackers, the only actual use of a strawman fallacy is this following comment made to me in this thread.
Cursewords gives you way too much credit as he assumes you have any actual experience in debate. It’s very clear to me on the other hand that you do not, these are in fact buzzwords you have picked up to discredit anyone who just so happens to disagree with you, and you have mastered this as a manipulation tactic to avoid intellectual debate when people start poking holes in your arguements. It’s what you’d expect from a Facebook comment section on a political post and not a story forum.
So yeah, Thadeus. You are unliked because you are wrong about some aspects of lore in a video game and treat your opinion as undisputible facts. You are right about the Void and how void beings are created, but I’m not going to give you upvotes because half your replies are just attacking other people for having a different opinions or tastes in fiction, and I don’t want to support that kind of behavior.
You said something I personally agree with above you said, I quote “I’m more worried about Y’rel looking bad than the Light.” That was the most honest things I’ve ever seen from you and that one sentence is the most relatable thing in this whole thread. No one wants thier fave to get hit with the villian bat. Had you just said that you would have gotten an upvote from me but you instead focused on how the Light can’t possibly be bad, defended X’era of all people, and that cheapened your whole arguement because it’s objectively wrong. I would possibly engage with you in good faith saying how I know exactly how that feels because they did that with my favorite character, Sylvanas. I thought we had a good chat about that a month or two ago when we talked candidly about the effect the Blizzard’s frat boy culture had on the story and you seemed empathetic then, I would like to engage with that Thadeus again, the guy with empathy, the guy I truly think you are under the machismo and attitude. I believe my last comment to you before I got muted was “don’t borrow trouble” which wasn’t an attack it’s a friendly idiom not to worry about things before they happen, in this case we have no idea if Blizzard is even going to do a “Light Bad” expansion. I, like others, would not be opposed to it happening, my likes reflect that.
Personally, despite the fact that I do think you have a lot to offer in the way of lore discussion. I am hesitant to trust you or to engage with you in good faith because in several previous threads you have admitted to trolling the story forum for negative reactions and attention, and that is just a slap in the face to all of us who want to give you, or have given you in the past, like myself, the benefit of the doubt. You self admittedly care more about “sticking it to the libs.” than you care about getting along over what we all here collectively enjoy which is talking about World of Warcraft lore and speculating about the future of this video game. That could explain why you feel like you are being brigaded by politically left leaning people in the forum, it’s just a byproduct of this very divisive political tension we all find ourselves facing lately in North America, and you are part of that problem.
Before I slink away again I would like to point out to you the following glaring hinderance to engaging in any of your threads.
This is called “playing the victim and lying about it” it’s fabrication or exaggeration of victimhood for a variety of reasons such as to justify abuse of others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy, attention seeking or diffusion of responsibility. Like you said above anyone can scroll through this thread and read your comments and see how others are replying to you. They can see you constantly playing the victim so you can verbally attack others who simply disagree with you. Although Finnibas above thinks I’m only here to ruin his day for calling out sexism in the story forum, this type of manipulative behavior from guys in the forums happens every single day unchecked, it’s the reason why women don’t feel safe here. You have proven yourself to be an untrustworthy man in my eyes, one who uses maniuplation and “reactive abuse” tactics to win an arguement. Forgive me for warning people in this forum not to engage with you because your behavior may be considered triggering to some.
Don’t expect another reply from me Thad. I told you like three months ago I was blocking you. l did block you and I do have you on mute. I’m actually ignoring you on purpose, that’s the benefit of blocking someone.
While I think the idea of Xal’atath being the Jailer’s soul fragment is a bit out there, you make a compelling argument for it. It also reminds me of the theories that the Jailer is working with the Void Lords/a Void Lord. That first quote from Xal’atath is definitely like something the Jailer would say, like what he said to the Archon through Anduin.
“He is bound to me, just as you sought to bind your own brother.”
Are you suggesting that Zereth Mortis is in the mortal realm or that Zereth Mortis is Azeroth? Because if it’s the latter, wouldn’t that be where the Jailer opened his portal to? Wherever he goes, they’re in big trouble, as the Jailer has been described as a “Titan ++” and the Titans can destroy planets.
Do you think we’ll get anything more with the “other cosmic forces in the realm of death” story? The Void’s invasion of Bastion is treated like a historical footnote, Ti’or is nothing more than a Void-infused boss fight in Maldraxxus and I think the writers have forgotten about Z’rali.
[quote=“Thadeus-caelestrasz, post:232, topic:1100665, full:true”]
Which evidence and arguments have I ignored and what evidence did I leave out in order to cherry pick?
So like I said, the aquir and n’raqi from the Old Gods infusing with and influence Azeroth. They didn’t just pop out of Void and Shadow. You also skipped the part in Chronicles about how the Old God’s curse of flesh created Gnomes, Dwarves, Vrykul and Humans. without the Old Gods and the Void, those races wouldn’t exist.
I’m saying the Old Gods don’t create anything form nothing. They influence and change. even the Void Lords themselves have trouble maintain permanent forms for long and have to feed on matter and other stuff to sustain themselves. They only create life by messing with what’s already there, be it worlds like Azeroth, machines, or peoples’ souls/bodies.
The bad qualities are their campaigns of genocide and forcible conversion. This related to the Light because they Light feeds of conviction and can only see limited possibilities, resulting in a tendency towards zealotry and in the most extreme cases, intolerance for anything they deem not Light enough. And the Light by itself is not enough to sustain life as we know it in the universe. It has to be balanced out with other cosmic forces to various degrees.
And I agreed. They aren’t part of the crusade. They’re part of the SCARLETS. The crusade isn’t part of the Brotherhood, Onslaught, or Apostates either, but the crusade are still Scarlets. They’re all still Scarlets.
That’s why you have to insist they’re not a member of the crusade because you know they’re still a member of the Scarlets, which includes the Crusade, Brotherhood, Apostates, etc.
Why do I think the nobles would support the Scarlets?
I never accused you of claiming anything’d be the end of WoW until you brought it up… which apparently wasn’t directed at me. So why’d you bring up something you were going back and forth with Cursewords about to me when I never mentioned before?
But everyone who disagrees with you does so for the same reasons because those reasons are all consistently wrong. If we’re not being mean to you, there’s no reason for you to bring up the people who are when talking to us.
No, power levels don’t matter, as the Legion was supposed to be the greatest threat the universe ever faced- to the point where it was the enemy of the Light, the Void, the Titans, and who all fought it on multiple fronts and couldn’t defeat it.
That the Lightbound didn’t finish completely eradicating races of Draenor down to the last person doesn’t make it something that should be allowed to continue. The fact that lives can still possibly be saved is all the more reason to stop them now.
Since there is no actual Light Crusade yet, there’s no published announcement about Xe’ra’s specific plans for Azeroth. But we can look at exactly what she’s already doing on Draenor to see what she’d be capable of should she arrive.
Even if she’s not as bad, it doesn’t mean she’s good. And it doesn’t mean she doesn’t need to be stopped.
So I guess I DO have to repeat it. Because in this thread, you stopped responding to me.
And here…
An interesting phrase. Can it be interpreted as “she is to blame for the attack on herself”?
You ignored my quotes from “A Thousand Years of War” in regards to Turalyon. You deliberately ignored how the Chronicles quote proved you wrong about the aqir and n’raqi (see below). There’s more examples I’ll link on request, but I’m striving to be concise since we’re already making walls of text with our back-and-forth.
So like I said, the aquir and n’raqi from the Old Gods infusing with and influence Azeroth. They didn’t just pop out of Void and Shadow. You also skipped the part in Chronicles about how the Old God’s curse of flesh created Gnomes, Dwarves, Vrykul and Humans. without the Old Gods and the Void, those races wouldn’t exist.
I’m saying the Old Gods don’t create anything form nothing. They influence and change. even the Void Lords themselves have trouble maintain permanent forms for long and have to feed on matter and other stuff to sustain themselves. They only create life by messing with what’s already there, be it worlds like Azeroth, machines, or peoples’ souls/bodies.
Wrong, the Chronicles specifically stated they emerged from the essence of the Old Gods themselves, not them mixing with Azeroth. The Old Gods rendered the land around their bodies lifeless, as stated in the Chronicles, did you actually read the quote? The Curse of Flesh mutating Titan constructs into Dwarves, Gnomes, Vry’kul and Humans - plus the Ethereals losing their physical bodies - is very different from how the Aqir and N’raqi were made. You’re deliberately ignoring the difference.
The bad qualities are their campaigns of genocide and forcible conversion. This related to the Light because they Light feeds of conviction and can only see limited possibilities, resulting in a tendency towards zealotry and in the most extreme cases, intolerance for anything they deem not Light enough. And the Light by itself is not enough to sustain life as we know it in the universe. It has to be balanced out with other cosmic forces to various degrees.
Citation needed on the Light feeding on conviction, especially since it predates the other five cosmic force, including the Void (and the hypothetical “seventh cosmic force” relating to the First Ones is current vague and unproven). Again, are those qualities inherent to the Light itself or come from those who follow it?
And I agreed. They aren’t part of the crusade. They’re part of the SCARLETS. The crusade isn’t part of the Brotherhood, Onslaught, or Apostates either, but the crusade are still Scarlets. They’re all still Scarlets.
That’s why you have to insist they’re not a member of the crusade because you know they’re still a member of the Scarlets, which includes the Crusade, Brotherhood, Apostates, etc.
When I first said the “Scarlets” were wiped out, I meant that as shorthand for the Scarlet Crusade was wiped out. Makes sense that you misunderstood me and thought I meant all their splinter groups too, an honest mistake.
Why do I think the nobles would support the Scarlets?
- The nobles are not a fan of Anduin and stormwind’s been trying to take back Lordaeron for a while. They’ve never opposed the Scarlets. Only elements of the Church of Holy Light have.
- The Scarlets are not a fan of Anduin and have been trying to take back Lordaeron for a while. And they’re starting to try and influence Stormwinf politics in Anduin’s absence.
- AU Xe’ra hasn’t shown up and started convincing people elsewhere to commit the genocide and forced conversions like she did with Yrel and the Lightbound yet. Naturally, she’d be opposed by Anduin, which makes him a threat to. So they’d all make comfy bedfellows.
What has any Scarlet Crusade splinter group been confirmed to have that the Stormwind nobles can’t get for themselves? Also, don’t you know that a Regent, by definition, is a temporary ruler? Can you name any nobles who oppose Anduin enough to overthrow or undermine him? Any good name the Scarlet Crusade, their sympathizers and splinter groups might have had was long gone before Legion.
I never accused you of claiming anything’d be the end of WoW until you brought it up… which apparently wasn’t directed at me. So why’d you bring up something you were going back and forth with Cursewords about to me when I never mentioned before?
Must’ve been when I suspected you of being Cursewords’ sockpuppet, before we cleared up that you aren’t.
But everyone who disagrees with you does so for the same reasons because those reasons are all consistently wrong. If we’re not being mean to you, there’s no reason for you to bring up the people who are when talking to us.
Some are being mean to me, some aren’t. The worst offenders are Cursewords, Renastus, and occasionally Evelysaa, Lenastus and yourself. The first four are who I’ve nicknamed my “hate bridage”.
No, power levels don’t matter, as the Legion was supposed to be the greatest threat the universe ever faced- to the point where it was the enemy of the Light, the Void, the Titans, and who all fought it on multiple fronts and couldn’t defeat it.
That the Lightbound didn’t finish completely eradicating races of Draenor down to the last person doesn’t make it something that should be allowed to continue. The fact that lives can still possibly be saved is all the more reason to stop them now.
Since there is no actual Light Crusade yet, there’s no published announcement about Xe’ra’s specific plans for Azeroth. But we can look at exactly what she’s already doing on Draenor to see what she’d be capable of should she arrive.
Yes, power levels do matter if the Light’s supposed to be as bad as the Void at the extreme and its polar opposite ala Yin and Yang. Even you conceded AU Xe’ra (and we can’t blame MU Xe’ra for AU Xe’ra’s crimes or vice versa) falls short of the Old Gods, for one. What AU Xe’ra did on AU Draenor doesn’t make your theorycrafting about what she might do on MU Azeroth canon.
Even if she’s not as bad, it doesn’t mean she’s good. And it doesn’t mean she doesn’t need to be stopped.
How so? Unlike the Naaru, the Titans are guilty of multiple actual genocides (as Algalon states and indicated with the “Reorigination Engine” in Uldum), should we have stopped or turned against them too? Rules for the Naaru, but not the Titans?
As for those two thread you linked;