Dear Blizz,
Thank you for adding 2H weapons back to Frost!
However, only half the job is done as there are two things that are needed to complete the dream and you could even ‘kill to birds with one stone’ here!
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When using a 2H weapon we should have the option to make Obliterate contribute a much lager % of our total damage. This could be done through an ability, rune or talent/s.
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The rune forging issue between DW and 2H is going to need to be addressed somehow.
Again, thank you for 2H Frost but the job isn’t quite done yet!
33 Likes
I would like to see them bring back Might of the Frozen Wastes or have the option to put two runes on a 2h; I think that’s a good starting point.
14 Likes
They added 2h back, because thats what ppl wanted most… instead of tweaking the class. So now you’ll have your 2handed, but on a class that will probably still sim better with dual wield.
Because the class is still build around having dual wield, will have 2 rune forge and etc.
3 Likes
The spec does not require all that much its more tweaking than anything.
There are some easy solutions:
Allow 2x runes on 2H weapons or improve the effects on 2H weapons.
Redistribute more of Frosts damage to Obliterate when using a 2H weapon.
These are not massive changes
9 Likes
Putting more damage onto Obliterate when using a 2h will do pretty much nothing.
Even if you increased its damage by 40%, you still have to fight agaisnt armor. 2h gets about 4 times less KM procs than DW so you cant rely on the frost damage portion of KM procs that much. So say instead of 120% it did 160% attack power as physical damage. Then you have to calculate the damage lost to armor which if right now is any indication its about 30-40% (more towards 40%). So it wouldnt be doing 120%, it would be doing 60% of 160%, or about 90% attack power as physical damage. While DW will be doing about 70% attack power as physical damage, the KM procs will have it do 120% around 4 times as often as 2h and that is before razorice being included in that frost damage obliterate which will do 15% more damage.
These are just quick rounded numbers, but its to show that even giving 2h a new rune that combines Fallen Crusader and Razorice, it isnt enough at all. Might of the Frozen Wastes again wont do anything in the long run and DW will be hitting harder.
I highly doubt that they are going to nerf DW just to accommodate 2h but thats really the only way to balance it. Its a DW focused spec. If you dont want to focus on DW then you will probably have to deal with just being weaker.
Unless they make the weapons just stat sticks I really dont see the weapon sets to be balanced. They might want to keep frosts DW uniqueness in terms of Str 1h weapon user for dps and not even try to do anything with 2h. They might also just say you guys got 2h back like you were asking. They might actually try to balance it.
5 Likes
at this point it’s just a wait and see. it’s still in early alpha and obliterate along with a few other things need tuning. And to Kelliste, your points can all be addressed in simple patch that equalizes killing machine and gives 2h both runes. Those two things make the weapons equal.
I will however be enjoying marksmanship because at the moment it is OP as hell on the alpha.
1 Like
How are you going to equalize it? 2h already technically has a higher chance per crit to proc KM so you would have to nerf DW to achieve it. Frost is a DW focused spec in design. More km procs from both weapons able to proc it which is intended, able to have 2 runes when the enchanting system only allows one enchant per weapon.
What about runic attenuation? Frozen Pulse? Murderous effeciency would have to then be adjusted for the lower chance at getting KM procs. There is a lot of stuff for them to address to at least make everything mechanically equal.
4 Likes
all of those things are literal non issue math problems fixable in a single patch.
My motto is usually “Just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing”.
However in this case, you’re severely underestimating the factors that will go into getting this to work mathematically without an entire spec redesign, ground up.
In which case a spec redesign would in fact be easier. This as such, is off the table.
I design for a living, so I have a pretty good grasp of the sheer volume of work this would require.
1 Like
You cannot just buff 2h until it matches DW. The ppm for km for example is for the ability itself and it’s the base weapon speed that determines the procs chance. The way that km procs has changed from how it was which was just on autos. DW had around 22% chance per auto while 2h had around 30%. It’s now based off of crits. KM proccing off of both weapons is intended design. So why would they nerf something that has been intended.
With the runeforges they would either have to figure out a way to change the enchanting system to allow 2h weapons to have 2 enchanting slots for a single spec, or make all new 2h specific runeforges with ever combo there is that DW can do.
These issues have been in place for 11 years and they didn’t try to address a single one while bringing back the option. When they added new runeforges which was after the 2h announcement nothing was done either.
Does that mean they won’t? No. But it definitely doesn’t look good that after 2 zones 0 has been done.
1 Like
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
You know, except the fact that both DW and 2H were viable and competitive for the entirety of 2hs lifespan before it was removed in legion prepatch. You keep making comments like this.
9 Likes
they are making obliterate do frost dmg when it has killing machine in shadowlands so it shoulnt be a problem
5 Likes
Because its true, dont like it tough. These issues have lasted for 11 years, if they didnt then how come I called each core issue that is happening in the alpha months ago.
I made these comments because im right and alpha testing proves it. Over a 12 minute test span 2h got KM procs not even twice per minute ending up at 22 procs. Its 1.83 procs per minute to be exact. DW on the other hand got 85 km procs over 12 minutes which is 7.08 procs per minute.
These issues still existed even though Blizzard was trying to cover it up with Might of the Frozen Wastes, it was a band aide and if you compare its damage in WoD, surprisingly DW came out ahead on Kargath doing 53k dps but on average Frost was about 45k dps throughout that tier while everyone else was blowing Frost out of the water. Fire on Tectus was doing around 100k+ on average with the top 10 ranks doing 115k+, other fights others were doing 20-30k over frost. Frost was behind as a whole significantly because they had to try to balance itself with itself.
This was supposedly the golden age for what people want to go to and some classes and some cases they were more than doubling Frosts damage, Unholy being one of them at times. Hellfire Assault. Unholy actually made it into the top 10 with 2 parses, one being 388k dps and the other 436k dps while Frost was peaked in the mid 200k range while all the other parses in the top 10 were pretty much all sub 200k.
So stop following me around trying to stir up some kind of argument that you are just going to fail at. Frost at times just wasnt viable at all, but now it is and has been pretty stable for 2 expansions. Just like in Wrath when they didnt balance for 2h, at all, the spec (in DW) performed pretty well with the other 2 specs and it pretty much came down to if you could play the spec better. Of course the sims would give you a clear winner.
Agreed. Lets not over complicate this - This is 90% of the battle right there.
7 Likes
Agree,
You can turn everything into an unsolvable problem if you make the issue complicated enough.
Issue 1: DW has access to two runes
Option A: allow two runes to be applied to 2H weapons
Option B: increase the effect of runes when they are applied to 2H weapons
Option C: add 2H specific runes
Issue 2: Obliterate should deal a greater % of our damage when using a 2H weapon at the cost of damage from other sources.
Option A: add a baseline talent that activates when a 2H weapon is equipped
Option B: create a build path in the talent tree that supports this play-style
Option C: add a 2H rune that results in Obliterate doing a higher % of our total damage
Its a maths problem with a few tweaks to abilities and maybe another talent, passive or rune that needs to be added. Its not like changes cannot be simulated.
6 Likes
Increasing obliterate damage won’t do anything though since armor reduces it by about half, DW will be hitting harder with obliterate just by the shear number of KM procs that it has along with the 15% increased frost damage, its 120% attack power as magic damage which isn’t reduced by armor, and then that is then increased by 15% and that is ignoring mastery. Even if they made obliterate do 200% damage, you are looking at about 2 km procs per minute which means only 2 obliterates will do its full damage. And the rest will be doing like 110% attack power due to mob armor.
These aren’t going to balance the weapon sets aside from creating a 2h rune, or runes but you still have to address the km proc disparity as well. Some talents will just be pointless to take due to a low attack speed with a 2h like Frozen pulse.
The only way to address this KM proc disparity without making even more work splitting KM into 2 parts, is to just flat out nerf DW which has been working this way since Wrath and before ToT was introduced all for a weapon set that really doesn’t work well with the spec.
in theory obliterate crits should be a lot bigger then dw due to the slow 2hd weapon speed.
it should still be a thing.
3 Likes
Well, it isn’t. No ability damage, unless otherwise specified, does weapon damage anymore and is based off of attack power and weapon dps. DW weapon dps and 2h weapon dps is near identical and attack power doesn’t change unless you have an ilvl difference.
1 Like
got ya then there wont be a big difference between the to just how it looks.
1 Like