If you’re Ooga then where’s Booga?
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I dont play outlaw like that, so its not my place. I personally don’t mind it and think players over emphasize its importance though.
Shadow Techniques as well is another ability where people over emphasize its importance. Its only truly relevant in ST as sub doesnt play with echoing reprimand and spends aoe ping ponging between max CP and empty.
Not only is this not true, i am saying this would not work because the game is not the same as it was in WoD/MoP. There are more classes in the game. M+ has been added since then. Talent trees have returned. Things are overall different. The vast majority of people calling for the return to such expansions focus on PvP so i can understand why theyd want that. But for the other game modes (namely M+) it makes no sense. Do you really not see what is wrong with having Sin be the cleave spec, Outlaw the aoe, and sub the single target or however you think they should be divided up? With no overlap into the other niches?
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Every time we invite a rogue to the group, there’s 3 scenarios that happen. And to clarify, we’re talking about retail because in classic, atleast rogue isn’t a joke.
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The Outlaw player. Every pull they take the yahtzee cup and pray they get all 6s so they can do anything relevant. After 5 goes, they still did nothing relevant and were bottom of the charts. Real shame.
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The Assassination Player. This is similar to the Demon Hunters that play on a steering wheel, but imagine assa rogues to be on a steering wheel + its manual. Basically, its piloted easy gameplay aside from the fact that every 30 minutes irl you have to remember to reapply your damage to your knives. woohoo.
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The sub player. Imagine this for me, k? You’re walking down a dark scary alleyway. A guy walks up to you with a gun, to rob your jays off ur feet. He pops like 2/12 shots into you, but the problem is that the caliber that his gun is chambered in is .22lr so you really aren’t that scathed. After that, he just stares at you angrily, yelling and attempting to be intimidating until roughly 2-3 minutes later, he finally goes to reload his gun for another go.
Tell me this isn’t a problem without telling me it aint a problem yo. Clown.
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The alternative, proven over the past three expansions, is that there is one flavor of Rogue which is the “right way to play” in every type of niche, and two dead specs. At that point, it really is better to change Rogue from a three spec class to a one spec class.
I’m not going to get into how Shuriken Powder spam is not revolutionary gameplay either.
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It can. You could get mad at someone for using emojis on a forum. I don’t think it gets more cringe than that
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HaT + Energetic stabbing felt far more reliable and consistent. It wasn’t based on rng autos. If you or anyone around you crits you got a cp, if you have snd (or recup) up you have good energy regen.
I prefer consistency in gameplay over rng things like rtb and tech.
Don’t put words in my mouth, the talent tree already helps with that issue (that being said the design was made last minute and sucks) If you want aoe just talent into it, that simple. In a perfect world, all three specs should have good damage all around, the niches being in the class design. What specs have what abilities, and how they synergize together. That’s what’s important to me, and right now the class is very homogenized. Why does Shadow Dance feel better alone as Bushlaw than it does on Subtlety without cd stacking? Especially before nerfs to outlaw.
I want to return to the roots of being an assa rogue, a combat rogue, a sub rogue. That being said, it’s 2023 cant just copy pasta an old xpac version of a spec (even though i’d be happy). I want to return to that old feeling of being a rogue, but with some new spice and flare.
Seems like people like you only care about doing big numbers in every situation. You’ll take any trash given to you and eat it with a smile on your face, but only if you can parse. You’re the same guy that tried to argue with me, saying how it’s fine for spells like cloak, evasion, sap, blind, and shiv to be on the tree. Spells we had baseline in the past, weren’t in our talent tree. Somehow using gold to learn a spell from a spell trainer is somehow similar to using TALENT POINTS to get the same spells. Good argument.
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Lets not forget their blur still lets them evade from the back too and ever since that was discovered, blizzard has been dead silent. they know about it but dont want to fix. Another game-breaking bug they refuse to fix because if we COULD hit them in the back, chances are they wouldnt survive near like they do during it
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Not when it comes to them thinking about nerfing us lately. They nerfed a dead talent that no one took to make sure NO ONE ever even thinks about picking it up (dagger in the dark), and ruined Maneuverability pvp talent and for whatever reason made a change to Death from Above (forgot what it was).
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Lmao that spec has majorily been Outlaw because Outlaw has been the only spec with good aoe up until this xpac. Sin and Sub got their moments, but in Sin’s case that was because of borrowed power and in Sub’s case it wss because of favorable tuning. For the first time though, the other 2 specs are able to at the very least sacrifice their damage in other areas to have aoe (although Sin loses too much in the process but its just a mess of a spec at the moment).
Going back to giving every spec its own niche would be going back to what we had for the previous 3 expansions. At least from an M+ perspective.
I wasn’t. It was a broad question. Some people have said that, and if you support going back to previous designs that would be one of the outcomes.
Because Outlaw is able to build up RtB buffs during SD and later on maintain them well past the 6 seconds of SD buff have ended. It ironically plays into the sustained damage theme of Outlaw.
Sin rogue has a similar benefit when using SD in that it gets a buffed garrote during that window. That plays into its dot theme. Theres also the optional 30% crit.
Personally i always thought the CD stacking for damage was the Subtlety niche. The <30 second cd dance feels great in PvE. I can see why the <30 second cd leads to problems in PvP, but the biggest problem is the spec still feels like a skeleton in most situations. So many talents are simply passives and Sub doesnt even play with the active capstones.
Ok we’re done. Seethe and cope
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Glad to hear that Sin and Outlaw can ride off of Subs thunder. Given everything we have to only be left with gimmicks. Glad that I still have flagellation (with no MA), Secret kek, the rotten, shadow dust, and Danse Macabe; Such spec-defining talents. BTW, maybe the class wouldn’t be so “skeletal” if it didn’t revolve around cd stacking. Perhaps our core would actually matter.
L + Ratio
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Thats the thing though, the ability is better as a class ability.
I already touched upon everything you said in the rest of that paragraph. But since you had trouble understanding i can reiterate. The CD stacking is fine. The problem is that all the talents we select in the tree have passive effects except for Secret Technique and Shuriken Tornado (in M+). More active abilities are needed. Back in the Alpha and Beta i was calling for Goremaws Bite to come back. Sub could also have an ability with damage that increases with every use before resetting after X uses.
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You’re not a man of your word.
The only thing I agree with you on here is the addition of Goremaws, for everything else I’mma have to agree to disagree. Cd stacking is garbage and seems to be a thing only pver’s tend to prefer. Only thing cd stacking and modifiers seems to lead to is fun interactions like these.
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No I’m just bad at reading names.
I could say the same sort of thing and link the same kind of video for PvP players and CC chains / damage niches. Sub has gone through periods of both at this point. You can revert all the shadow dance changes you want, but in the end it wont matter. The game will still play faster than it did back then. Those cc changes made recently will still be a thing. And Sub will still be unable to dish out its burst in the majority of situations. To address that, Sub needs new things, not a reversion to the way things previously were.
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Probably the most delusional statement I’ve ever read, the new things they added aren’t working. Gimmicks always get nerfed. The truth is that until sub rogue sees a rework it will be held back, it will always be either broken or bad. Can’t wait to see the next knee-jerk damage buffs that people will cry about.
If you’re going to argue for any modern and new rogue spec I would shoot for SL’s resounding spec, though being pigeonholed into doing goes every 45 seconds sucks. It also was very crit reliant due to evis being split into two parts… So every go I could get lucky with my crits and close the game out in 1 go, or I never crit.
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Aww youre cute. Im on the rogue forums because i play rogue as well, and went on PTR to screw around and it still had the same win conditions and kill potential as it does now. Im still very new to rogue, not playing it since tbc, but it still feels better even on PTR than half the other classes.
The only thing i dont like is certain gimmicks or our damage profile being loaded into a handful of abilities, however almost every class suffers this, so its not just rogue only, although rogue is definitely the most gimmick heavy.
I loved combat, i absolutely hate pirate, and RTB might be the dumbest ability in wow. But as a whole, even on PTR, rogue does decent.
That being said, pvp rogues would have the same issue with deeper daggers and finality. Using a 1-2 cp evis to gain those effects so your next evis hits harder.
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They have not added new things to Sub besides Danse Macabre and the ability to rupture 2 targets at once, both of which are passive (although the rupture thing is a great QoL). Shuriken Tornado and Secret Technique have been here since SL and prio (Secret Technique is really just an improved Death From Above).
No one likes the SL covenant abilities for a variety of reasons. They’re not even Sub specific abilities in the first place. So yeah Sub hasnt received anything new to its rotational kit.
If you’re speaking from a PvP perspective make than clear. This statement is not true for PvE.
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Hey cute beard the pirate, it is gimmicky and if you ever been a rogue a long time you would understand it sucks.
If you haven’t rogued a long time, you would know its not fine. No class relies on the jackbox that is going on now.
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Obviously this is pvp, I speak mostly from a pvp perspective. You should know that by now. I have CE experience, but pve doesn’t do it for me anymore. Also, this is a PVP-oriented thread.
Anything after the legion class rework I’d label as “new.” New meaning that it’s a modern sub rogue ability, and I’d extend this to passives too. Macabre is knock off hit combo, tornado is a pve spell cant speak for it, but I would not compare secret tech to DFA. DFA provides an I - frame and casts eviscerate (that should do physical damage), it also can be used as a gap closer and has niche uses. Tech is just Tech, its own spell. I’d rather not have either, because then evis gets tuned assuming dfa is always being pressed.
I’d even throw in perf veins, the rotten, lingering shadows, and finality. I could go on and on tbh.
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Big true, we’re not the only class with issues.
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