Id trade goofy gimmicks and extracloak evasion just for actual damage instead of getting rogue taxed like we are now.
3 Likes
Outlaw has 634k a guy reported so mail (depending on class) mail will prob be around 700ishK without talents, plate will easily have 850K (not tanks), druids in bear form will easily have 1 million without talents, warlocks are pretty much plate.
Top all if that with defensives while stunned, dk removal of stun with Icebound fortitude, big shields from priest, melee hpal 750k crusader, 30% aura mastery every min, sac. EtcâŚ.
Not a complaint per say more a bigger question on
Where is the lethality of a rogue?
Where is it? Point to any ability that actually hits above 20k on a generator or over 60k on a finisher.
Point where anything in the rogue tree says ah heck yeah buddy.
Instead
- gimmicks,
- 3 non working talents (ns and blind of blackjack - not working on purpose and wouldnt make a difference if they were fixed because there is no lethality to a rogue).
They canât buff anything on rogue above 25% because it makes gimmicks strong and back to SL which isnât fun to play or play against (not that I care about other classes as they trash talk us for existing)
We are at a point where they should just tell us âgo kick the baker in stormwind/ orgrimmarâs butt and mug old people because that is all youâre good for roguesâ.
Outlaw
- sinister strike needs to just hit for 40k hands down
- dispatch needs to be doing 100k
- pistol shot it up like a playing halo 2.
- needs to be aggressive and hang in there to be a threat.
- killing spree should literally be doing 50k hits each strike ( take away the cdr if they must).
Assassination
- needs to stop being a goofy rot or nothing
- bring back 5 fat stacker deadly poison and make envenoms nuke again
- stop w goofy gimmicks like exsanguinate and relying on cds while warriors and other smooth brains tee off all match.
Make ambush matter again, its called ambush for a reason. No reason in any universe should it not be hitting people for 70-80k.
Subtlety
- my beloved class since the beginning⌠get rid of the dang gimmicks.
- eviscerate needs to be crushing. No bs 100k
- remove the âget back to dance or mission failed betts luck next tymee CoD memeâ get rid of cdr.
- return actual Find weakness (50% pvp) like in wod
- return hemorrhage as the cheap builder
- return Sanguinary vein at 30% (wod)
- make dance actually matter instead of goofy worse wind walker hit combo.
- take the damage out of dance instead of making 1 shot land every expansion. WoD was balanced, cata everything was strong on all classes.
Make rogue matter, its our class. We arenât the other guys and we donât care how other classes feel as they donât give a rip or a flip about us either.
Give everyone tools to fight and defend themselves sure, Iâm all about it. But stop gimping rogues because some dirt bag got the funk put to them while they were picking flowers in the dragon isles with warmode on.
Iâm passionate about rogue because itâs all I do and all I care to do. We donât want be op hur hur 1 shot. We want to be what we are good at : smoking fools with efficiency, and getting outta dodge and when you canât, turn the dang knife and show your teeth man. Not some hobo who HAS to hide, has no kill potential out of DRs, has to wait on gimmicks to do anything + badge + goofy shadow blades / death mark/ whatever tf 5 buff rng + procs and the ideal situation + cross CC.
No dang reason for us to be this dang weak when you have
- elemental blast hitting you for 180k plus
- paladins doing 160k TV and judgments for 90k and other foolery
- warriors blasting for 100k +executes , mortal strikes
- hunters doing rapid fires for 40k or higher each smack. Aimed shots for high smounts with lows of 79k etc.
- evoker sobe lizards doing 273k dragon rage empowered eternity surges and other bs.
- warlocks doing warlock things for 70k chaos bolts, 50k incinerates, and other crud.
- rising pizza crust kick doing 100+K , mistweavers gunning you down, 40+K fist of fury ticks list goes onâŚ
Not a SINGLE rogue CORE ability does its job. That is absolutely trash.
The point is not to complain but to demonstrate everyone hits hard EXCEPT US on purpose.
- heehee go stun / sap / blind rogue. Do damage rogue, do this rogue.
- we literally canât.
More now than ever rogues, sound off. Speak the frick up. It starts with us man, letâs stick together
A friend and I started on a rework for Subtlety and we made an assassination tree too. Obviously it is a WIP but the whole idea is to
- make rogue CORE abilities matter
- remove gimmicks and rng
- remove cd stacking
- return versions of everything that made us nasty prior to legion.
- everything legion forward has been nothing but gimmicks and unnecessary stuff while they removed everything that made us a rogue.
Please take a look and I appreciate you all if you do.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/copium-of-a-sub-rogue-pvp/1562331
7 Likes
so you literally want to be overpowered.
Be able to get outta dodge when someone is about to kick the crap out of you
smoke them when you want to
cc someone to death.
Maybe you should try other classes then come back and appreciate the amazing toolkit you have.
Toolkit means nothing if we do no damage and canât kill anyone.
Toolkits mean nothing when as of 10.1 all Cc gets nurfed.
This means that setup based comps are dead, which is all rogue had. It will move towards pve based comps which rogue canât fit into because all the other melee are significantly better brawlers.
The only pve comp rogue realistically had was RLS and in todayâs game format both rogue and aff are leagues behind any other comp.
10 Likes
mAybE u sHulD tRy nothing. So other classes that have just as much CC in various ways should do more damage just because their class doesnât say ârogueâ?
You should just be hitting people for 180k+ every 12 seconds on 2 charges , Icefury empowered and just shooting off meatballs for 45k each?
Why are you even on the rogue forums? beat feet bud. If you donât know what rogues are or what rogues do but people just like you jump in here like a nosey girlfriend and talk it up.
- Spenders should be worth their weight regardless of class
- Builders called AMBUSH should be doing that same w backstab when FW is up punk.
- Same w other abilities.
All CC was cut, rogues rely on cc the most and set the table for blue kids like yourself that just freely do stuff when left alone.
We were talking about conditional abilities in our âempowered windowsâ, they should just be doing damage regardless.
Special conditions like find weakness are the whole point of it.
4 Likes
Itâs sad that paladin is a combo point class which they just call holy power, and the spenders do more damage then any spender a rogue has at 6 points and they use 3-4 holy power and longer range.
8 Likes
I at least take some small comfort in the fact that I still get to work from home, while these obnoxious class designers are getting called BTO.
I hope they quit and someone competent gets brought in instead.
3 Likes
That analysis was very depressing. A pure dps class that does rock bottom damage. Really makes me not want to play. 
4 Likes
What Iâd value even more than a rework at this point might be a global dev-side rethink about how Rogues are even presented/talked about, because so much of what we deal with has to do with optics, and thereâs abysmal design sympathy for how much heat we take from the community when official information is off or misleading. And it usually is off.
Hereâs an example from the 1/27 bluepost about the then imminent Ret reworkâŚ
I remember reading this and wincing at the way in which that these kinds of statements cement bias in the minds of non-Rogues that read it. If youâve never played a Rogue and/or donât understand its mobility, you read this funny jab as the incorrect gospel, âRoGuEs hAvE tHe aBsoLuTe bEsT mObiLitY in tHe gAmE.â We donât. We have good mobility, but there are severe caveats, and we die without what we have. Sprint is middle of the road mobility. Shadowstep/Grappling Hook are solid, but are hardly the âbestâ, and they arenât the easiest abilities to use defensively. If you take Blizzardâs word for it, though, you have good (albeit incorrect) basis to want Rogue nerfed.
Same with defensive capability and utility. The prevailing myth is that Rogue has both god-tier defensives and god-tier utility. To the former: while technically true in a vacuum, we fall apart outside of our defensives where other melee specs hardily survive long enough to be helped by their healer. To the latter: Rogue utility is wildly overrated because of how it feels to be stunned and how it looks when every streamer impulse adds a spec or two in the MDI S-tier. We have good utility, but, like our defensives, weâre so dead without it.
My most wishful, copeful hope is that weâre entering 10.1 low as part of a larger strategy that understands how disproportionately Rogue suffers when it starts a tier strong. Hopefully it isnât just the Rogue playerbase that understands how much weâre blown apart because of how jumpscary we are in PvP. Our design needs to account for that caveat from here, because designs to this point have done the diametric opposite.
Things have to change.
14 Likes
No matter if kidney shot was a long cd, people will get upset,
I cannot understand how people get upset being hit by us when we donât do big hits.
Warrior stormbolt is what ? 30sec cd for 3sec stun?
- he can do more than double the damage you do in kidney shot and cs put together and keep whooping on someone after
Druid
Literally same copied from rogues, all rogue passives now because boo hoo for the meow meows. This janky class does 80k finishers, more cc than us, big bleeds, crap like feral frenzy does a lot.
BUt u HaVe VaNISH aND sMOkEBOMb (shove it)
Riddle me this
- why do ferals have all rogue passives, do more cc, more tanky due to ridiculous bear stuff now, and do more damage per hit?
Riddle me this
- why do we have covenant abilities instead of consistent damage âyou press eviscerate, it does a lotâ
- why are snarly comments like âyou wonât have the mobility of rogues hur hurâ
Makes no sense and was a dumb dumb of a comment. Rogues have decent mobility.
Riddle me this boys
- why does a ret paladin get super cb pts now, passively generate w auto attacks now snd rogue has to rely on gimmicks.
Really at a point where they donât give a flying fish about rogues. Give us gimmicks and nothing can do baseline damage. Great design man.
7 Likes
Take all the parts of rogue and put it in other classes to fix their problems yet give rogues gimmicks.
Rogue is a spakle job for all the holes in the walls they punched in piecing together SL to work for DF.
Ex: 7 combo points should be slamming, lethality should do what the name says.
- Idc if we had 5 ambush talents to make it an actual ambush.
Improved Find Weakness
- Improved Find Weakness is the biggest up for us atm as Subtlety rogues are concerned in both pvp and pve, tune down the other crap and improve FW. Eviscerate, backstab, shadowstrike all do sucky damage because of FW being wicked low.
- Shadow damage ignores armor but is also low af too so the âwe already ignore armor with shadow damageâ is poor.
Deeper Daggers is a poor mans version of Sanguinary Vein.
Damage from Shadow blades at the very least needs to be shifted more towards the base kit.
Wod rogue would dust any version of current rogue.
4 Likes
Itâs also very, very easy to see that the devs are having a hard time finding the niche for what role-dedicated classes (eg. Mage, Rogue) need to be in a landscape that is predominantly hybrid. And Iâm sure itâs a tough navigation to avoid too much of a performance disparity. I think this is where we end up with so much of our kitâs potential - in the case of Sin specifically, at least - being shipped off to the melee off-specs of tank/healer classes and our access to simultaneous damage profiles being taxed in ways that hybrid classes just donât suffer as much anymore. And for good reason, as the modern-WoW convention of spec (vs. class) identity really should be what fuels the devsâ design sensibilities.
But it needs so much work if they actually care to fix it. It seems like the ânicheâ theyâve tried to carve for role-dedicated classes for way too long is that which archaically forces us to activate X spec if we want to focus on Y kinds of damage profiles, with their âbalanceâ measure being to spread our kit around to blur any possible power/gameplay disparities. It just doesnât work well, especially if similar hybrids are able to notch spec paths that let them ST, cleave, funnel, 3-target, 5-target, and 8+ target, all from the same setup, and we, because of this, end up feeling very much like the flimsy cardboard cutout of a class. Or worse - the advertisement for damage specs on a hybrid class elsewhere.
Say it with me: dramatic reimagining/design review required.
9 Likes
Agreed, itâs tough and iâll give them that but also doesnât excuse making gimmicks that we rely on and are often still underpowered out of fear of us doing âtoo wellâ then designing several nodes for other classes to build their entire kit going down the line till it is going to be strong no matter what.
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Simultaneously, everyone doesnât need to be good at X Y and Z. People have blurred the lines over the years big time. âI should do aoe, and single targetâ and blow everything up then throw a fit when wArCrAfT lOgs tEllS mE mY cLasS suX". Players make the game way worse and an example is as follows.
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Ion once said recently âwe make game 1 and players make game 2". Which is completely true to an extent. They make classes do X and players make it even worse with peer pressure, min maxing the fun out of anything, whining why they canât deathsweep everything and do ridiculous aoe. " If youâre not 1 shotting, youâre badâ type mentality. The devs are under a lot of pressure to make stuff exciting but also seem to not think of things ahead sometimes.
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Example: DH on release, Ret paladins now, Assassination in the start, Subtlety gimmick rogue in the start. They make dumb stuff for rogues then tone it down and then say whaaattt whaaaaattt. 10.1 will be one of the roughest patches for rogues (not just in pvp but in pve too). Nerf garbage secret technique and get it the frick out of here, put some actual finisher damage back into eviscerates as an example. Stop with the CD stacking and talk to your players and not just certain groups for their own agenda.
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They canât tune anything due to how much crap is loaded in the trees with reprimand, flag, sepsis etc. Not a single rogue asked for any of this ( If you did shame on you - you effed our class). SL stuff worked in SL because of the conduits, because of that jazz and now we have lingering remenants to make them âworkâ. There is nothing rogue about any of these abilities.
We just want core abilities to feel good and thatâs it, nothing more and nothing less.
Rogues were solid in WoD and In Cata by design, didnât need gimmicks, didnât need silly stuff and were prob far easier to tune. The good idea fair cropdusted someoneâs keyboard and made artifacts so we were changed to fit that, then more problems came and now for BFA azerite to patch classes to work, then came SL with more dang systems to patch rogues again and make stupidly obscene gimmicks ( it keeps getting worse and worse and less rogue every dang expansion and it has to stop.)
Dragonflight was the expansion where the devs said recently
- " This is the third era of wow"
- Sounds cool but SHOW it, get back to actual class design and reign people in. Yes we havenât had talent trees in years but the dang blue print for classes were literally all expansions prior to legion where things started getting scuffed up.
AOE Note
- Leave aoe to casters, let them do what they have always done. Classes that are weird like Dh should have to pick but never do both. Same w monks summoning everything from the peaks of winterspring and kun lai summit.
Us rogues need to just go back to killing priority targets with minor assist damage. Not secret technique garbage, not padding meters with silly things.
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Good ol fashioned bleed everyone up and smoke the primary target. âOverall damageâ of logs is just padding the heck out of meters âhow much can we aoe everything and look how cool I am momâ. - no one cares -
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There has to be a very distinct line drawn between what we can and cannot do again instead of the devs putting their own bias as the designer, listening to players who do stuff, people they pay to play their stuff (sponsored streams etc).
I donât give a flying fish about any of this aoe crud and many rogues probably donât either unless they played from Legion forward. In that case they arenât truly a rogue as they donât really know what the class is capable of.
2 Likes
For someone who speaks so much you consistently give out the worst input while simultaneously acting like you represent every rogue.
2 Likes
Not going to point fingers here. Rogue needs to rogue and thatâs it, not reliant on other stuff to do so.
Good day sir, I donât think we have ever seen eye to eye on anything in our interactions.
1 Like
Because you call for the removal of anything and everything new, while failing to understand why they were implemented in the first place. If you want the old rogue, go play classic where the spec design you want actually fits the game.
2 Likes
go off
Oh great, donât tell me your gonna start telling me how roll the bones is actually a skilled and fun mechanic. How shadow tech is a lot smoother of a passive compared to HaT and energetic stabbing.
Itâs fine to enjoy this version of rogue, but donât gaslight and tell someone to go to classic wow because they stated the obvious. Sure he might not be speaking for every rogue, but open your eyes and look around. A LOT of people other than him are crying out for our class to return to itâs WoD/MoP versions. Threads and posts everywhere saying that we âneedâ a rework.
5 Likes
So in laymanâs terms, youâre bad at the game. Ok.
2 Likes
I canât imagine using emojis on a world of warcraft forum board. Can life get more cringe than this? Smh.
Touch grass bro.
2 Likes