The price is not as important as how niche the other abilities on the spell caster unit are. Oracle has very niche abilities that make it bad to mass so having full power feedback on it wouldn’t be so bad. Since no one is going to mass orcales just for feedback and instead they will be slipped into the army when needed and kept out when not. Instead of like the HT where it always around since storm is staple in both tvp and zvp.
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In what fairy tail world mass BCs lose to mass Carriers? The BC have more armor than a Carrier, more Hp, more dps with Yamato and can engage or disengage when they want so the fight will always be in their terms, damn you can just rapid fire Yamato and jump away if you are that scared of Carriers. This argument is cristalized bull.
Another clueless argument because Thors already are a counter to Carriers and it requires the Carrier to come to 8 range to unleash Interceptors, by the time they get this closed to the Thors the Carriers are already gunned down like the piesce of garbage they are, like, it’s not even close.
Go load unit tester fellow Terran.
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The price is extremely important for determining the value of the spell.
That’s the main reason why Feedback was nerfed. You have a 50/150/2 caster that was regularly deleting units that cost much more in an instant. The Oracle would certainly be a “better” unit to put a full-power feedback on, but it still might not be balanced with it.
In the fairy tale world where Carriers have 8 armor at +3, so Battlecruisers deal 0.5 damage to them with every attack, which is exactly what DankTemplar was suggesting.
Yamato Cannons and TJ will have limited utility and require the Terran player to mass up a Battlecruiser fleet at the same time that the Protoss player starts massing Carriers (since other counters aren’t allowed to work apparently).
That depends on the numbers on each side. Carriers can win that fight; and they would have a better chance of it if they are buffed.
Not really. 1 Widow Mine can gib all the Interceptors from a Carrier deathball. All of them. 1 shot.
In ZvP Infestors wreck Carriers directly and with Fungal, can wreck the Interceptors. Nevermind PB. That decimates Interceptors.
In PvP Tempest can snipe Carriers for days.
There’s answers for every situation where a Carrier Deathball exists, you just wouldn’t dive Carriers directly anymore. You’d bleed them dry, deal with the army and then the Carriers.
Let’s totaly ignore that 6 armor BC gets the same damage from interceptors but get the complete 240 damage from one Yamato… Don’t ignore facts to push you narrative.
Yamato is literaly a free spell, no drawbacks, 2 to take down a 410/250 Carrier, what you mean “no other counter are allowed”? That’s your statement only, literaly no one but you said it, you still have Cyclones, Thors, Widowmines, Vikings… What Terran does not lack is anti air.
And what you mean by “at the same time”? You just get two BCs throw 2 Yammatos, jump away and boom there it goes 410/250 resources 6 supply and keep doing it over and over until the Protoss bleed resources to death. “limited utility” yeah you just want an auto win button, sorry but can’t give Stim to BCs, that’s a shame.
Yeah open up the Unit Tester and you’ll se that Thors hardcounters Carriers in any equal number.
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Stalker range reduced to 5, attack cd reduced by ~16.666% (20% dps increase); hp reduced by 10/10 - range reinstated after Blink upgrade, or attached to a new upgrade; this is to help address the problems in early game PvT caused by stalkers kiting marines, while also making stalkers a bit better in the late game in all match ups.
Alternatively, just the range reduction and a new 150/150 upgrade to reinstate it on the twilight council or dark shrine, but -25/25 to the cost of stalkers (to 100/25), though this could end up problematic in PvP, where stalkers are already prominent and the range matters a bit less, and could end up in Protoss not making any zealots or adepts in any match up, because stalkers are actually their best core unit overall (except for them being extremely expensive).
Either way, some change along these lines to make stalkers a bit worse in the early game against Terran, and a bit better in the late game against every race is long overdue. -
Adept attack allowed to target air units; adept range increased from 4 to 5 after the shield upgrade. Adept attack damage changed from 10 (+12 vs light) to 10 (+8 vs light), but attack cd reduced by ~16.666% - this makes them a little bit better vs army units, but less effective for worker line harassment outside of PvT until ground attack upgrades (depending on armor upgrades of the opponent) are researched, at which point, they’re slightly worse in PvT, but slightly better in other match ups for worker harassment.
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Carrier armor increased from 2 to 3 (or 4) - I don’t think the dynamic with BCs matters. Protoss currently don’t have anything that can fight BCs effectively, so making carriers extremely resilient against normal BC attacks doesn’t really matter that much; it’s not like carriers are used against terran anyway with how quickly interceptors die to marines, and air armor upgrades tend to be researched after the attack upgrades.
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Tempest supply cost reduced to 4 (which is more in line with its current cost and stats; even then, it probably won’t be particularly good, but at least having a few of them in the army won’t cripple the Protoss like it does now).
Honestly, I’d like to see their range significantly reduced and their dps significantly improved, but with the current liberator/ghost/viking and infestor/corruptor/brood lord dynamic, that could easily cripple them for the only uses they currently have and push their role close to that of the voidray; it might make more sense to just nerf infestors/corruptors (which are both way too strong. Infestors should be 3 supply with their spell kit; neural on a 2 supply unit that can also slow the enemy from over 10 range away is stupid). -
Voidray cost increased to 275/175, but given +1 armor, +25 hp and attack damage changed from 6(+4 vs armor) at a .5 attack cd to 12(+8 vs armor) at a 1.0 attack cd; or 9(+6vs armor) at a .75 attack cd; and the increase in damage from PA similarly increased to match with the new attack rate. This makes them better against the units they’re intended to be strong against, like BCs and corruptors, which have high base armor, and makes them more appropriately costed/statted for a 4 supply air unit. Perhaps more of their power could be put behind an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon to prevent potential problems with voidray all ins.
Alternatively, they could be just be given the attack change, or PA could be weakened, and the damage vs armored could be buffed without upgrades.
PvT is slightly favored to Protoss because of the early game. Late game, things are pretty heavily in Terran favor right now.
Most of the suggested changes in this thread have very little or no impact on the match up; carrier armor does not matter in PvT, because Terran already answers carriers by killing interceptors.
What the hell are you sugesting? How is Protoss suposed to defend Rax proxies? Or 3rax reactor no Stim allins? PvT early game is a struggle to Protoss not to Terran. Sorry but I disagree with this one.
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I meant EMP and Tanks are options, not to combine them.
By focusing the Interceptors 1st, you reduce the Carrier’s damage output by 1/6th for every Interceptor kill. And killing Interceptors is a lot easier than you’re making it out to be. Yes, if you have Vikings, you shouldn;t focus Interceptors but Liberators, Mines, Marines and Thors all have no issues gibbing Interceptors at a fast rate. Especially when layered.
8 armor Carriers probably wouldn’t break anything. It could…but the more I think about it, the more it just would just require a shift in mentality for players to deal with; kill the God damn Interceptors lol.
The only times Voids, Vikings and Corruptors counter Carriers is when you have enough of them to one shot the Carrier or kill it in a second, maybe 2. I’d argue the true counters to the Carrier are the Marine, Widow Mine, BC, Tempest and Infestor or Hydras with some light support.
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40 +25 versus shields is less than 80. It takes at least 2 shots, and the Interceptors have to be within 1.75 of the targeted Interceptor when the missile hits.
Now granted, the Widow Mine will probably hit the Interceptors when they are first released, which the closest that Interceptors will clump up, so 2 hits at that point will be devastating. There aren’t many cases where splash damage against will will have that kind of instant firepower though.
4x more damage actually. 5-3 or 8-6 is 2 damage, whereas the damage dealt by a Battlecruiser with full upgrades against an 8 armor Carrier is 0.5, only because that is the minimum damage that a unit can deal.
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Other units won’t deal enough damage to continue working, like Vikings for example.
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You are forcing Battlecruisers to do a job that is meant to be handled by Vikings.
Under your shield changes, Tanks will not deal enough damage to handle armored Protoss units with shields. You will have to hit them with EMP first.
Under your suggestion to remove all bonus damage from shields, every unit with specialized damage will become underpowered in PvX match-ups. That would require either the Protoss units themselves to be nerfed (which makes PvZ and PvT against Marine-heavy comps much worse for Protoss), require all units with specialized damage to be buffed (which would cause problems in other match-ups), or require most specialized units to be given an explicit bonus against shields (which would make them stronger against units they don’t counter).
In all 3 cases, Protoss ends up in a much worse state if the game is actually balanced.
No, all of those units beat Carriers if you merely match supply at the start of the fight and focus the Carriers directly., and they are intended to.
Void Rays are the only “iffy” unit out of the bunch. That is because Void Rays were given a stupid charge mechanic, that sucks most of their anti-armor damage except when the ability is active (in which case most units can kite or flee from Void Rays).
It’s a problem on both sides. Stalkers are a problem for Terran in the early game because they kite marines, so nerfing the range, but making them stronger and/or cheaper would help resolve that problem; making a change to Adepts to make them stronger against army in the early game by reducing the damage vs light a bit, but increasing the attack rate to compensate the DPS loss, without changing their damage per hit vs armored units, will help them a bit in the early game.
The only unit this really hurts against is Cyclones, which IMO, should just be deleted from the game, but that’s a different matter entirely.
Corruptors always counter carriers. They can be at half the supply and win the fight by target firing or be down 2 upgrades and still win the fight, and that’s always been the case. Corruptors are insanely strong.
BCs probably still beat carriers even if carriers have 8 armor, because BCs can yamato down half the carriers and then kill all the interceptors; currently, this results in only 1 carrier dying in a 10v10 batle. That probably doesn’t change much if carriers are taking .5 damage per hit.
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Such a problem for the BCs…
There are, and even Marines will still be able to deal with Carriers because there are two ways to kill Carriers, just kill the Carrier or kill the Interceptors, Carrier is far from being overpowered, you just don’t want to put the effort of giving it a seccond thought due to a realy strong bias.
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Protoss is HORRENDOUS vs siege units. A guy can go bio tank or bio liberator and counter everything. In broodwar, as long as the numbers are reasonable you can stasis things like tanks and attack. In SC 2? There’s only waiting for someone to unsiege and trying to get lucky.
Protoss obviously struggles vs broodlords, too. Anything with range and Toss gets owned by it. Unfortunately, everything Terran has a lot of range, more or less.
If they’re not going to make the tempest a real unit, then they probably need to add a spell or something. I mean, it’s just free reign vs Toss. Like shooting fish in a barrel from 500 feet away.
Protoss is so weak that it feels like a mistake to ever not counter attack, because odds are you can’t win any fights.
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I don’t know if it’s bias. I just think that sometimes, people have really weird notions. On paper, an 8 armor Carrier sounds busted but in practice…probably not. It would obviously need testing, you couldn’t just plop it into the game like you could with Adepts attacking air.
As you state though, if you see a 8 armor Carrier and you have a bunch of marines, kill the Interceptors. A Carrier without Interceptors is a flying supply block and can be cleaned up by other units…it’s probably the one and only unit I’d be okay making super tanky since it’s attack isn’t tied in with said tankiness.
That being said, my idea about changing shields could potentially be very very broken. That would need extensive testing for all interactions and could very well be too much.
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I agree with this. Protoss is weak to siege-type units. And splash damage type units.
Part of it is that Protoss don’t have many long range options themselves and part of it is that Stalkers are such a God damn crappy unit yet Protoss are forced to use them to clean up things like Liberators…because the Tempest is a massive dead weight vs anything that isn’t a Liberator or a BC or a BL.
Protoss need some good GtA options. Or more robust units to help the Stalker out in GtA like an Adept that can attack air…
Protoss don’t really need buffs. Zerg really do (LMB anyone?). Zerg isn’t actually OP. The Infestor is OP. Coupled with the Queen ship core and cheap Overlord Speed to ensure they never take any damage ever, PVZ becomes truly nauseating. Terran players late game can at least play much better than any human really could and win (Innovation vs Serral). Protoss can play poorly, play well, doesn’t matter they just lose.
I support this change 100%.
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I just want to see Adept Phoenix again. Charge Zealot based compositions are so easy to use it makes them look like any other Protoss player.
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On that note, they should split the Stalker’s attack into two weapons.
Then they can just buff the anti-air attack without worrying about breaking ground interactions. I don’t think there is a single unit in StarCraft’s history with split ground and air weapons that has not benefitted from them.
Another thing they can try is an upgrade to increase the Stalker’s attack speed in the late-game; but that would probably need a late requirement to keep it out of timing pushes–They could implement an “or” requirement where the upgrade could be researched if you had a Robotics Bay or a Fleet Beacon or something, so it isn’t locked behind one tech path.
If Vikings and Corruptors still work then it will probably be fine, I’m just worried about those particular cases in particular. Those are intended counters where killing the Interceptors is really not an option.
In my discussion with my brother offline earlier today, I was pretty sure that an Interceptor Shields/Health buff, a smaller armor increase, and an attack speed increase (tested to make sure that it doesn’t break the Viking/Corruptor case of course) were better options.
SC2 Battlecruisers.
Over complication and the Twilight Counsel doesn’t need more upgrades. It’s going to have 5 soon.
You could buff the Stalkers attack speed from 1.87 to 1.80 right now and you could get the exact same result without breaking balance involving timing attacks.
I am protoss player. Diamond leagues.
Protoss buffs I would like to see which I think are personally reasonable. I won’t put the explanation because I think they are generally self-evident
-Mothership should be immune to all spells that affect its function or stats (no neural, no fungal, no stuns, no blinding cloud, nothing)
-Timewarp should be larger or be active faster (they are already currently doing this)
-I would like to see carrier interceptor build speed around 6 seconds. An ability like the void ray overcharge ability to let them build faster briefly may also be a reasonable alternative. Or an upgrade to increase the build speed may also be reasonable.
-Protoss needs a ground counter to lurkers. Perhaps have an upgrade that raises colossus armor damage to let them fight lurkers a bit better. An upgrade to disruptors that lets them do extra damage to cloaked and burrowed units may also be reasonable (disruptors currently do extra damage to shields already).
-Void ray build speed should be decreased 3-4 seconds
-Feedback damage should go back to 1:1 instead of currently 1:2 damage
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