No one wants to have another Mass Carrier meta again.
How about this?.
Increase the Carrier base armor from 2 to 3. Same as the BC.
Vikings would still do 10x2 damage with max upgrades for both sides?
Thors would still do 65 damage per shot with HIP, assuming max upgrades.
So yeah, they’re still effective. Just not so effective that Carriers instantly vaporize. I think you’re greatly under estimating the damage Terran mech units do to Carriers…
If we’re talking about ZvP, mas upgrade Carriers get countered by things like Infested Terrans, FG on the Interceptors. Hydras still shred the Interceptors themselves. Queens won’t be as effective but if there’s 3 armor upgrade Carriers on the field…you shouldn’t be relying on Queens to beat Carriers anyhow. Plus they still shred Interceptors.
The common theme here? Kill the God damn Interceptors 1st lol. Or dive the Carriers with Corruptors/VIkings/Thors/IT, etc if you have enough to pull it off.
EMP is absolutely busted vs shields. I can’t even believe that’s up for debate. It’s like if Storm was reworded to “Deal 30-40% of the unit’s total health as damage. This effect cannot kill and health cannot be reduced below 30% by this ability”. ANd then using mass Chargelots (Marines with Stim) to clean up after blanketing the Terran army.
But I doubt we’ll ever agree there. Removing all bonus damage from shields is a big buff. True. It would need testing but I don’t think it would be as game breaking as you think. Only testing would tell for sure though.
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That’s decent middle ground. I still think that 8 armor Carriers wouldn’t be an issue though. Well maybe if you played like an idiot and dived the Carriers instead of killing the Interceptors 1st…but that would simply be a misplay. It’s not like Ulralisks where the damage is hidden behind the 8 armor. Interceptors are still weak as hell to damage.
Late game Carriers sitting on top of mass SB’s with high templar support.
I’m a very reasonable person.
Sitting on Shield batteries late game would be annoying but would it be an issue?
Interceptors still die. And if there’s no Interceptors, there’s no threat from the Carrier. Sitting on SB with Tempests and HT Support is a better idea. Even if Carriers had 8 armor.
You could use your Carriers to buffer all the damage if they had 8 armor.
What do you mean? If the SBs are constantly healing the Carries who are tanking, they wouldn’t gain the 8 armor to soak. And again, if the Interceptors are all dead, the Carrier can’t do anything.
I feel like this is a situation where you have to remind yourself that Carriers could have 5000000 health and 20 million shields. But as long as it has no attack, the Carrier can;t do much with those fat stats. In the cases where you just can’t kill the Carrier for some reason, you kill Interceptors. That renders the Carrier useless for a good minute+ and Interceptors are easy to kill.
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not sure if serious.
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Carriers have no attack. The approach to dealing with them would simply change from “Dive the Carrier” to “Kill the Interceptors, then dive the Carrier”.
7 armor carriers would be fine, they were fine before, and they were way better units as well.
Anyone pretending them having high armor makes them OP either never played BW or is simply overreacting because this forum made a meme of mass carrier being an “invincible auto win” at some point lol.
Also keep in mind that the odds of protoss air reaching level 3 in a realistic game are rather low.
Definite overreaction, but enough to make sure it’ll never happen.
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A carrier deathball would be problematic then, especially against zerg.
I do think carrier needs a massive buff, but i dont think 8 armor carrier would make things better overall lol
EMP and Tanks do not work together well. The Tanks will always hit first or the opponent will back off.
As much as Protoss players like to pretend this happens, it does not happen often unless the Carriers are heavily outnumbered by the enemy’s anti-air. That is simply not a case that air units are balanced around. The Carrier’s Interceptors have a total of 640 health compared to the Carrier’s 450 health, so it is almost always a worse choice to focus them first.
Killing the Interceptors first is also not an option for the units that are actually meant to counter Carriers, like Void Rays, Vikings, and Corruptors. Those units only beat Carriers if they focus-fire the Carriers directly.
9x2. It is a 25% nerf to the Viking’s damage. It is a much more significant nerf to most other anti-air units, such as Hydralisks.
Vikings do not beat Carriers by enough of a margin for a 25% nerf to be warranted.
It will be a much bigger hit to Thors after the rework.
Furthermore, Thors in particular are outranged by carriers, so they depend heavily on their ability to deal damage before the Carriers get away. After that point the Thors are actually quite useless.
If that was the case, EMP would have been severely nerfed years ago.
Take a moment to read through the list of units that change would affect and how much damage those units would lose. In most cases it is between a 30% nerf and over a 50% nerf, which would have to translate into a larger nerf to each Protoss unit’s shields for counter units to remain effective.
In all of the cases where damage overlaps shields and health, the attacking unit will lose most of the damage to health, which is why the shield nerfs have to be slightly larger than the actual difference in damage.
The net effect is that Protoss would either become much weaker against units like Marines, Hydralisks, Roaches, etc; or only units like Marines and Hydralisks could actually be used in PvX match-ups. Both cases are awful for the game.
The reason why 7 armor Carriers were fine in Brood War is because they had very hard counters like Plague aand Scourge that ignored armor, and because Terran’s counters to the Carrier (Goliaths, Wraiths, etc) had higher DPS than Vikings and ignored most armor with armor upgrades:
- Goliaths gained +2 x2 with each upgrade.
- Wraiths actually fired 1 attack (not 2) at 20 +2 damage, so they dealt 19 damage at full upgrades against fully upgrades Carriers.
- Both units fired at a 60% faster attack rate than Vikings, so assuming that Vikings were up against a 4 base armor Carrier, Goliaths would more than double the Viking’s DPS and Wraiths would hold a 52% DPS advantage.
But he’s not asking for that. He’s asking for 8 armor Carriers.
Currently yes. He’s suggesting the anti air role
If you can then I will aplaud you, good luck then
What’s tough about the Reaper is that it’s special ability of cliff jumping is so niche that it gets outclassed later on by medivacs existing.
On a sidenote, why does Protoss even need anything but a minor buff? PvT is balanced to slightly P favored, and the issue in PvZ lies on the Z side and affects T as well which is getting adressed by nerfs to Z.
Yet this thread is full of absurdly strong buffs to Protoss…
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Terrans still have Yamato and today they have Thors, 7 armor ia not a problem, do not forget that Carrier’s Hp is split indo life and shields, the 5 armor that is today is a problem because it’s too low that even Marines hardcounters it.
In PvZ no need to say that they are doing Just fine.
They really need to remove feedback from the HT and give it to the sentry or oracle back at full power.
Edit: With all the op carrier buffs you might as well ask for the original tempest which was just a carrier with hardened shield against ground targets.
Which by itself is not a counter to Carriers, and requires the Terran player to mass a larger fleet of Battlecruisers that will lose hard due to the difference in armor.
Which will not work as a counter either. Carriers alone can simply kite out of the Thor’s range to win the engagement, and they are going to be near invincible against everything else.
Full-power Feedback belongs on an expensive unit, not a cheap one. It was originally designed for the Dark Archon, which was a rare unit 250/200/4 unit that didn’t see much use because of its niche spells.
Mind-Control generally required an expensive target in order to pay off, and Maelstrom was only particularly useful against Zerg. The specialized nature of those spells meant that players usually would not make many Dark
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