Everyone agrees with this.
No, we don’t want to see invincible late game Protoss armies again and anything with energy not being usable vs Protoss.
You have disruptors and immortals. Both very good at dealing with Lurkers.
Colossus are vs light.
Interceptor build speed is already 9.
The StarCraft II Battlecruiser certainly has benefitted from split air and ground weapons. The Battlecruiser’s ground attack is much stronger than the air attack remember.
If Battlecruisers had a single attack, it would be nerfed to balance air play where the Battlecruiser’s attack needs to be weaker for some counters to work. I don’t think you would prefer Battlecruisers that only dealt 5 or 6 damage to ground units depending on whether or not it also had the random delay issue.
They could put it in the Robotics Support Bay or something.
That is a much weaker change than I was planning though. My idea was that the attack speed buff would put the Stalker’s attack closer to the pre-rework value, so Stalkers get a significant DPS buff in the late-game.
They are saving that space for Observer nerfs.
You could just make it 8 damage and increase the range to 7. Nerf TJ if needed.
That particular suggestion is not going to work because the Lurker’s burst is too high. There is no “armor buff” that could make any unit strong against the Lurker without breaking said unit against most other units in this game.
Battlecruisers would be far too strong against other air units with those values. You are ironically proving my point.
Carriers have a range of 8 launch range and Interceptors do 5x2.
BC’s should be about fighting head on. That’s why they have high armor and HP.
BW BC’s had 7 attack range but obviously a higher slower firing damage per shot.
And Carriers have much lower DPS than Battlecruisers do against ground because of it (3.333 per Interceptor for a total of 26.66666 DPS if the enemy does not have armor, the attack cooldown is 3.0 seconds).
Carriers and Battlecruisers are balanced differently. Carriers are expected to use their long range, the interceptor’s leash range, and the Interceptor’s ability to soak damage to at least some effect against ground units.
Battlecruisers are balanced to fight enemy grounds units and turrets directly while taking damage the entire time. That is why they have the same range as Dragoons or Stalkers and less range than turrets.
And very high ground DPS compared to air DPS.
Brood War Battlecruisers had 6 range, not 7. Every turret had 7 range, so Battlecruisers had to come in range of turrets, Dragoons (6 range), and Goliaths (8 range with upgrade) in order to fight.
The Brood War Battlecruiser’s attack was also very weak. Specifically, the Battlecruiser’s attack cooldown was twice that of a Marine (same as a Dragoon or Vulture), and it dealt only 25 base damage with +3 upgrades. This put the Brood War Battlecruiser’s DPS between 14.5 and 18 depending on upgrades; which is simply not competitive for a 6-supply direct-combat unit in StarCraft II.
There are two reasons why Battlecruisers worked in the Brood War engine:
The bad pathing prevented most ground units from clumping and closing into range quickly. This usually allowed large stacks of Battlecruisers to delete each unit in turn shortly after it entered range to attack. A player might be able overcome this advantage if the Battlecruisers were above open ground with plenty of space, but this required a lot of micro.
The AI and bad players would never attack with a large enough air fleet to deal with 6-12 Battlecruisers. Instead, they would both attack with fleets that had much lower net supply. The AI would also often spread units and give them the order to move to a location very close to the fleet (sometimes a spot within immediate range) before giving the order to attack, which only gave the Battlecruisers more time to kill units like Scourge before they actually started trying to fight.
I see now, that makes more sense.
That is what we will see with radius 2.0 EMP vs Toss. It will kill Templar play in TvP like it did in WoL. It was nerfed for a reason.
Templar play in PvT is still really good. Right now you frequently see tech switches between Templar, Colossus and Disruptors. LOTV is such a different game compared to the trainwreck of WoL.
That’s better than Storm owning everything.
Also EMP doesn’t drain the entire energy of casters, it only drains 100.
It was nerfed for a reason.
Protoss players don’t know how to split HT’s up anymore, also use the Warp Prism to protect your HT’s and laugh at the ghosts. They are so used to balling them up. But it’s not as bad as Zergs which mass Infestors to destroy everything.
Maybe nerf on Charge won’t come online as it would be even harder to hold Terran’s tank timing push without extra damage. However, if Protoss relies on adepts, it just won’t solve the dilemma as the mothership core was gone and early defense for Protoss would just be harder.
What Protoss need is buffs on early defense and late-game. For example, we can shorten the build time of Carrier’s interceptors, roll back the damage HT’s feedback can deal on other spell casters, and make tempest a stronger unit. Nerfs on some of the gateway units may be a cost, just as the balance team is doing now, but buffs are not enough.
Tempest are already getting a HP buff.
No. Players like being able to use energy units against Protoss now and realistically that would solve nothing because Fungal and EMP out range feedback in cast range and they are AOE.
It’s already been shortened.
Exactly… feedback has less range than most spells and is single target. It’s really not effective at all against infestors or ghosts, because both fungal, infested terran, and EMP all out-range it. So currently, even if feedback did deal 1:1 damage, it wouldn’t matter.
A better solution would probably be something like increaing the range of feedback to 10 or 11, but I think it’d make more sense to reduce the range on EMP, fungal, and infested Terran, which were all either directly or indirectly buffed over the years.
By 25 total, because they’re also nerfing the shields… and they’re nerfing the anti-air range by 1. With the range nerf, it’s probably a net nerf in PvZ, and doesn’t really change anything in PvT.
And they will still be awful at 5 supply and cripple the Protoss army if they make more than 5 or 6 because they’re useless once the opponent commits to attacking the Protoss army, and take up too much supply. They should reduce their supply cost by 1 again.
Did you watch the global finals group stage? Go listen to the comments by the pros and casters at the end of the group D matches regarding tempests… Everyone agreed that tempests are godawful right now. +25 hp alongside a range nerf is not going to make them a decent unit.
(On that note, Brood lords should really be 5 supply given their cost and performance; being untouchable by ground units if there are enough of them is pretty busted. Infestors should probably be 3 or 4 supply to balance their spell kit, since it’s too easy to break the game with them at 2 supply but they would need some other changes to make that reasonable; neural parasite and fungal should never have been on a 2 supply unit; they offer too much control.)
My requested buff would be rather subtle… an upgrade that grants Sentries +25 energy when they first warp in.
While Force Fields don’t really play a role once massive units are out, what the upgrade does do is allow Guardian Shield to be cast the moment the Sentry has warped in, allowing for a more soft-counter defence against things like doom drops, Mutalisks and Battlecruiser attacks. The upgrade is mostly defensive, but it could be used for some cheeky Hallucination play maybe.
My own suggestion has the upgrade on the Cybernetics Core, costing 150m 150g and taking about 85 seconds to research, and requiring the Robotics Facility as a prerequisite (since the Sentry is robotic, and helps reduce its impact with timing attacks). Nevertheless, given the gas cost and the fact it would compete with Warp Gate and air upgrades, such a prerequisite might be unnecessary.
It’s pretty obvious that this guy is a Terran whiner.
Except he’s also high on terrazine
I like this.
MyOhMind I think this one is worth checking out
MyOhMind is literally saying ‘no’ to any actuall buffs people come up with in this thread. Shooting down anything that harms terran.
He doesnt want protoss to get buffed eventho its the weakest race.
He only wants to see ‘changes’ that keep protoss in the current weak state.
Remove MyOhMind from the discussion and protoss would become a race again.
I’ve been supportive of many different Protoss buffs, but some ideas are just game breaking.
And I even have great Protoss changes in my balance mod.
Have you considered that Protoss will get this upgrade and use it for all-ins?. That’s my main concern since you know it will likely be abused in those in upper levels.
Sentries(and Oracles) getting an energy upgrade is certainly better than HT’s of old, but Sentries are a very delicate unit when it comes to balancing because of how powerful forcefield is.
I’m open to the idea, but why the robo facility instead of the robo bay?.
Also as an alternative suggestion, what if sentries could also be built out of the robo?
Couple things.
IT’s are not out ranged by Feedback. IT cast range is 8, Feedback range is 9.
Fungal has 10 cast range + 2.25 radius = 12.25 range
EMP has 10 cast range + 1.5(2.0 after upgrade) radius = 11.5(12 after upgrade) range.
So the best solution for Feedback is to increase the range to 10, since even if you nerfed Fungal and EMP range down to 9, Feedback is still out ranged because of the spell radius.
It’s so Tempest are not impacted by EMP as much and more durability is put into the HP.
In PvT, Lib range is getting nerfed. In PvZ, Broodlords range is getting fixed back to 10 and NP is getting 8 range.
Instead of reducing the supply down to 4 again, what could be done with the Tempest is increasing the attack speed to that of a sieged tank, since right now Tempest have a very low fire rate.
Tempest are a specialized unit, but they are also a long range siege unit. So do you really want massing of 4 supply Tempest again when I’m sure there is several ways to buff the Tempest to make it worth 5 supply.
Infestors should be 3 supply, I agree with that since even Vipers are 3 supply.
Broodlord supply cost is fine, but the Ultralisk should get buffed so Zerg doesn’t have to stay in the “survive til GG lords” mentality.
By that logic we can not buff anything Protoss ever because every non-token buff has a potential to be used for all ins.
Well good thing you don’t need to toss IT directly on Templar as IT has 5 GtG and 6 GtA attack range, now, isn’t it?
Too dangerous. Would be used in proxy Tempest builds.
Terran players have already learned how to counter that. Vikings have same range as Storm, so they can keep the Prism with Templars away. Interference Matrix can completely disable Prism from dropping Templars. And you can even EMP Templars in that little time between dropping and casting Storm if you’re precise enough.
And all of those approaches have been seen regularly in high-level games such as GSL.
No, it’s because the sentry energy change has the potential to create some broken builds vs Zergs and even Protoss.
You have to consider things like that, I even like the idea and want to test it since Sentries are a cool unit.
Newly buffed Vikings shut that down.