Toss hits 43% in GM

how you call me a troll/ idiot, but then write a long text.
Just to forbid anyone the idea that you can touch bio. I must have hit a nerf.

on the other hand, the salty reaction reminds me of patch 5.0.12. if terran is going crazy over the pseudo ghost nerf “TvZ late game is broken now”, what has changed nothing.
still 15+ Ghost late game.

i do admit that the changes would have a strong impact, but more in the PvT area, especially in the early game.

TvZ early game wouldn’t change much to be honest. Roach would be a better (small groups). if both nerf -10Hp / -1range. the range alone would be noticeable, but will not make bio unplayable in TvZ. many scenarios would be similar.
What changes to 2-1-1 opening? Marine poke and then load in medi. ~1 times less attacking before loading in, but does that kill the opening right away?

To conclude, I see your point that the two nerf marine makes it unattractive. Because with the shortened range and -10HP, aoe would have much more influence. PvT early game has a lot of influence /snowball effect.

But even if I was just throwing that out there, it would be interesting to make the strength of marine more dependent on ma

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The Zerg cabal pretending that they nerfed transfuse. :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:
Batz thinking he was the only 1 that noticed. :blowfish: :blowfish: :blowfish: :blowfish: :blowfish:

It is worse at Mass transfusing a single Target but it is stronger at blanketing an entire front line of an Army in transfuse.

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Zerg cabal? The only time is zerg Gets buffed is by accident. Literally everything Zerg does is pound for pound harder than what protons does. Consider blink micro versus burrow micro. A single click can blink a stalker away but it requires it burrow click un burrow click for zerg. Zealot charges automatic. Immortal barrier is automatic. Shield batteries heal automatically. Warp gate has a universal hotkey and select Queens does not. Dessert production is a multi-step process fraught with pitfalls, protoss production is as simple as clicking which units you want and getting them immediately and without delay. There is no Zurg cabal because if there were Zerg wouldn’t be so ridiculously disfavored in the game design.

Seriously. Imagine how upset protest would be if they actually had to anticipate what units they needed where on the time spans of normal unit production. If they couldn’t just warp in exactly what they needed exactly where they needed, they actually had to make it in anticipation and place it in anticipation, they would lose their flipping minds.

When they are forced to do this is when they have to Rally their Robo units or their Stargate units and when they do that they frequently rally the units to their death. They have a bad rally that sends a Colossus into the middle of nowhere or even into the taryn’s natural and they won’t notice it walking across the map. Sometimes they won’t even notice it as it sits there out on the map for 20 or 30 seconds. If we extrapolate those outcomes to warp gate if warp gate were changed to where protoss couldn’t have units on demand instantaneously, we have warp gate units in totally nonsensical places dying for free. It would be a catastrophe. And protoss would go ballistic.

There is no Zerg kabal. There is only the protoss cabal.

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Because you asked two questions and I was explaining their answers…? I tend to write a lot of words to explain myself because I usually feel like my short ones get misunderstood.

I mean, my opinion is that the Marine is a stupid unit and shouldn’t be a good unit. The problem is that the Marine fulfills a set of roles and if you nerf it you need some way for the roles it fulfills to be enabled because while I think the Marine is too good, it’s not like Terran overall is so good that most bio strategies would survive a Marine nerf.

Contrast, the Ghost nerfs were survivable because they didn’t reduce the efficacy of a hit on most priority targets - High Templar still lose their energy, Colossi their shields, and Vipers and Queens are Psionic.

It forces you to have extra Ghosts so that you can lay that extra EMP or Steady Targeting into the targets. It means you can’t get bursts of value from sniping a mildly bruised Lurker and killing it, it now has to actually have taken meaningful other damage; you need to throw three EMPs instead of two to remove the shields from all the Zealots; four snipes into Ultralisks instead of three.

Wow, now bio Terran has to actually build a decent quantity of their primary tech unit. The strategy that, in pro play, regularly is floating over a thousand gas.

Basically, of course you still see 15+ Ghosts, because the nerf wasn’t an issue if you have that many, only if you try and get away with just a small handful of them.

We don’t agree on this. The -1 range makes both small and large counts of Marines deal far less damage to incoming threats and the -10 HP makes that loss of ranged damage a huge influence.

You focus on the Roach, but Banelings would be extremely hard to focus fire with the -1 range - The 2.2 radius of the burst lets it get a lot of kills in ZvZ, and ranged units clump up a lot more than Zerglings do.

Each, independently, of the -1 range and HP loss means they don’t shoot as many times.

The first shot happens (1 / speed) seconds later. For Speed Zerglings, that’s 6.58, so 0.152 seconds later. If we’re on creep, it’s 0.117 seconds.

The Marine now dies to two fewer Zergling attacks. They attack every 0.5 seconds, so that’s pretty easy to calculate.

So we lose between 1.117 and 1.152 seconds. Unstimmed, that’s almost two attacks on the Marine’s 0.614 cooldown, stimmed cooldown of 0.41 makes it almost three.

It’s pretty likely that two Zerglings will be attacking and not just one, so it’s probably more accurate to say “one attack, sometimes two if stimmed” - but consider then the Medivac’s healing and how much one shot early game like that matters. A whole volley less from 8 Marines is 48 less damage, a killed Drone or Zergling - and in Zergling vs Marine, that turnover is a big part of what lets Marines be able to fight them? It’s why stutter stepping is so important to Marines, more so than basically every other unit.

On… what?

Marauders? I agree, Marauders are really cool units and it’d be nice if they were more at the center of things.

The issue if you nerf the Marine majorly is that you have to give Terran better access to its other anti-air options and currently both producing Cyclones or Thors from Factories or Vikings from Starports have significant problems.

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Sorry, that’s a load of baloney. Expecting the tails of 3 distributions to be identical is absurd. You are dealing with the most extreme cases of which there are very few and each of which is extreme. Separate these into 3 groups and the probability they are identical is so close to zero it’s effectively zero. The model used in this case is called the GEV, aka Generalized Extreme Value distribution. It’s used to model the probability of outliers. If you use that to model the probability that one group of 3 is weaker in skill the probability is very high. I posted the charts on the forums quite awhile ago.

What will happen if you balance around the top 10 or top 25 is that one group will be more skilled and while you will equalize winrates between the groups, you were equalizing the skill differences and NOT equalizing balance. The result is that on an equal skill and equal effort basis, one race will be favored. And that is exactly how we got to the current situation with protoss dominance. Top protoss are substantially worse players, they buffed these toss to beat maru and serral, and now protoss is insanely favored on an equal skill/effort basis. It’s quite literally rigging the game against the more talented players, e.g. punishing them for being better.

The proper way to balance is on an equal skill and equal effort basis. This is true balance. If toss can’t win a premier on equal skill and equal effort then that’s a skill issue and not a balance issue. There is no “choosing perimeters to define balance”. It’s simply a load of hog wash. These people are professionals. They are paid to get good. If protoss can’t learn to play, they shouldn’t be professionals. You can’t force clowns to wear a crown. That’s simply not how kingdoms work. A clown wearing a crown simply becomes a larger clown. :clown_face: :crown:

You simply need 3 or 5 variables that correlate with skill (EPM, # of hotkeys used, screen movements, spending quotient, supply blocked time, etc – whatever, it doesn’t matter as long as they correlate with performance). You pick a cluster of players large enough that when you take the average for these 5 variables it produces a very correlation with skill (ideally >= 0.95). You compare their predicted performance to their real performance and nerf or buff. GSL casters won’t like the results, because it means toss needs mega nerfs. :person_shrugging:

Sorry champ it’s just facts and logic. SC2’s userbase mostly plays vicariously and tunes in to premier tournaments for their fix. If they see too many one sided matchups the nerf hammer drops disregarding any skill difference. What do you think would’ve happened if there was another Terran only semi’s in the GSL?

PvT winrates are sky high even in masters (http://i.imgur.com/FaaCXgq.png). Priority is premier tournaments. Sc2 is doomed. Time to find another game. Too many idiots running sc2. U think people care about premiers when the ladder looks like this. Lmao. We have witnessed the death of the sc2 empire in real time. Good luck finding viewers when nobody plays the game.

They could’ve gotten away with it if they just kept nerfing zerg, but once they added terran to the hitlist there was no chance it was going to work. Now 2/3rds of the player base is going to hate playing vs toss and that will translate into watching toss dominate esports. Their timing of the nerfs lines up with serral entering bootcamp which shifts zerg from leading to lagging in aligulac metrics. All right before a world championship unlike any in sc2 history due to middle eastern money. We’re about to witness a true balance fiasco like the game has never seen before. It’s going to be spectacular. And at the end I will get to say I told u so like always. We’ve all placed our bets. Now we wait until the balance counsel realizes they bet wrong. It’s coming. Just you wait.

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Don’t go over to Dota, they made the game even worse than this. Just buffed everything, it’s a clown world. LoL isn’t bad, but team games suck. (random idiots)

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Yeah team games suck. I’ve been wanting to pick up an occolus to play through subnautica in VR. Balance counsel thinks they can screw the player base to boost viewership for premier tournaments. Think again. Sc2 support is voluntary. Make my gaming experience miserable and there are plenty of other games to play. What’s worse than the balance fiasco is the breaking of trust. I will never trust these people again in my entire life.

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Theory: balance perimeters exist. There should be a correlation between particular skill brackets & a particular matchup’s performance for those skill brackets.
The data: https://i.imgur.com/guOr1ev.png
The analysis: The R2 value between mirror and non mirror is <0.05. Skill level (as measured by mirror matchup) is not predictive of balance trends. Balance perimeters are a myth.

An accidental inference that I think you can agree with, found in this chart, is that good players obviously dominate their mirror matchups. That’s why the line has negative slope. The Y axis is their non mirror minus their mirror. So a player with a better mirror will be below 0 on the Y axis. Players above average (in their mirror) are >0 on the X axis. That’s why randoms get absolutely destroyed in mirrors. Players who are good at SC have a mastery of their mirror matchups.

Bonus conclusion: “premier level SC favors zerg” is a “balance perimeter” theory and this chart falsifies that as well.

I am just stacking the wins higher and higher, in game and out of game. I just can’t stop winning.

:person_shrugging:

For argument’s sake, lets create a skill bracket and see what it looks like. As a Protoss’ PvP goes up, he gets a bonus of somewhere between 0% to 50% of that as increased ZvP performance. Let’s see what this looks like: https://i.imgur.com/ZAMrIyi.png. So yeah, a correlation appears between ZvP and PvP & the slope changes – something we don’t see in the untampered data. Anyone who wants to play with the dataset is free to: https://jumpshare.com/s/t3CQm7pWwk8S82puEi3p

This is so fun. Let’s do another one. This bracket doubles a player’s PvZ rating if their PvP is greater than 2: https://i.imgur.com/F5InmnX.png. Now there’s a giant cluster of PvZ in the top-right quadrant that didn’t exist in the original.

We can see how imbalance-at-certain-perimeters would modify the natural trends and those patterns just don’t exist in the original data. Gotta host a statistics lecture to disprove every bad balance argument that is made on these forums. Exhausting. :joy:

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I think if you look at post 2017 sc2 as a whole, that is possible. But the Bane gets nerfed by 10 hp and it’s like people don’t even notice. Anyone who’s having trouble with Zerg right now (not a particular style, but “Zerg”), really needs to just give up. The new Ultra is pretty busted, though.

Yeah nydus was insanely busted at one point. Rogue won a gsl by nydusing infestors into a toss main and deleting their production with infested terrans. Innovation is the sc2 goat because his gsl wins are spread out across a range of balance conditions, many of which disfavored terran. Serral is great but he’s bopping foreign players and they aren’t real professionals. Maru is great but he’s bopping kr noobs after their pro scene collapsed. Innovation is greatest. Many tourny wins when balance disfavors terran & vs peak korean competition. Mvp and mma were great, but nobody knew how the game worked back then so everyone was bad. Really sc2 talent peaked in 2015 to 2017 and that was innovations reign.

Gm wouldn’t let a player in without 5500 mmr. Nowadays gm can go as low as 4700. Sc2 isn’t a competitive esport anymore. The pro scene is incredibly bad. They’ve realized toss professionals are so flipping bad they can’t win without being buffed to jupiter, and the toss STILL can’t win lmao. Sc2 pro play is garbage compared to 2017. I watched a code s toss move click his first void ray into queens & let it die just yesterday. A mistake like that would basically never happen in 2017. Oops, I forgot how to use hotkeys, forgot how to reactively f2, forgot how to position & maneuver my units. Oh but nevermind that, I am code s!

I actually think it’s IMMVP. Terran had no business winning anything. Instant Fungal, No Gas 3 base openings. No Terran had any chance. Wins the World Championship. Innovation is another good one though. Serral was great, but he didn’t show up until after almost all the eyes were off the game, but he’s definitely the modern day best. Maru’s the GSL Goat though.

MVP was outstanding for his time. He was the one to pioneer the style of bio parade push / drops & split/stutter stepping that is still used today. The reason I don’t consider him a goat contended is that he was playing against players who were absolute trash. Nobody knew what they were doing at that time. Sure, balance was FUBAR’d, but the game understanding of the average pro player was so abysmal that they couldn’t really take advantage of it.

I think 2015-2017 was the most brutal period of sc2 to compete in because everyone knew how the game worked, there was a very large & robust pro scene (with team houses), and every tournament victory was won by beating out absolutely fierce competition. After that point, the size of the pro scene rapidly declined & the skill level of the pro players declined proportionally. Teamhouses were disbanded. There was a very steep decrease in talent. That’s the period when Serral starts to dominate, and that’s why I don’t consider him a goat contender either. Same for Maru. Sure, they dominated, but they dominated a very weak pro scene.

I don’t really like Innovation or his playstyle. They called him “the machine” because he did the same builds on repeat like a robot. I don’t like that. I like the sOs’s and PartinG’s of of esports. My own playstyles are the same. I could easily get +1000 mmr on the ladder if I played standard, but I refuse to. The reason I hate ZvP so much is becaues only standard is viable vs protoss – protoss has such a huge lead, you MUST pick only the absolute strongest strategies or you will have a 0.0% win-rate. The point is I come to this conclusion against my biases. Innovation had the qualities that SC2 rewarded (and continues to reward to this day – toss can’t win tournaments because SC2 is a mechanical game, and they aren’t mechanically gifted players) and his accomplishments span an enormous range from 2013 to 2020, winning the absolute hardest tournaments the entire time. Never once did I look at his play and see a gimmick. Not once. Maru abused gimmicks all the time. Everything from proxies to cyclones to mass ghost/raven. Meanwhile Innovation took WESG from Serral when Serral was the one abusing the gimmicks. Maru to this day still gets trounced by Serral.

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Yeah, that’s a pretty picture but I only see a cluster of colours like it’s new year’s eve. I prefer this one taken in 2020 h ttps://imgur.com/a/Lr3Ju26 This was before they deleted broods and buffed toss to win premiers so it would only be more extreme.

WARNING: Giant technical post incoming, I don’t blame you if you don’t read it lmao.

The chart does have a lot of missing info. It’s using Elo to rate any player in Aligulac w/ >100 games in each match & who have played 1 game since January 1st, 2023. It then converts the Elo scores to a bell curve. This is useful because we can compare how the group behaves as a whole unit. For example, mirror matchups have no balance issues. Each player has access to the same exact tools. It’s symmetrical. The only variables affecting the outcome are skill and luck. This can be used as a proxy for true skill IF you assume the PvP pool and ZvZ pool and TvT pool have roughly the same parameters. There are tests that we can do to verify this, but let’s assume it’s approximately true. We have a way to define a player’s skill via their mirror matchup’s elo ranking.

We can can now compare their performance in non mirror matchups to what we expect based on their mirror, and we can see if there is a trend. For example maybe toss is imbalanced but it requires super high skill to take advantage of it. If that’s true, high skill toss with a high-ranking PvP will have an unusually high PvZ or PvT by comparison to other protoss. That’s something we can test here. If we graph the player’s PvP on the X, and on the Y we plot their PvZ minus their PvP, we would expect to see a horizontal line if there is no relationship between. If we see a positive slope, it means high skill players are outperforming their mirror matchup. If we see a negative slope, it means high skill players are underperforming relative to their mirror. Interesting, it has a negative slope, meaning high skill players tend to be best in their mirror matchup & underperform in other matchups compared to their mirror.

What’s shocking though is when you compare this relationship between matchups. If balance trends correspond with skill level, we would see a negative slope in ZvP and a positive slope in PvZ, meaning the performance of high skill toss goes up in PvZ and the performance of high skill zergs goes down in ZvP. That would mean not only a balance issue, but a balance issue that is only a problem for the highest tier players. But, that’s not what we see. All the matchups have virtually identical lines. The idea that balance shifts depending on skill level is simply wrong according to this test.

That brings us to the next point. I’ve said it a million times on the forums but if something is caused by protoss it must affect all those who play protoss. What we’d expect to see is the whole protoss group move up in performance if there is a balance issue. That scenario would not be visible in the above test. That test is designed to see if there is a relationship between balance & skill level. If protoss as a group all move up, there will be nothing visible on that test.

On this new test, we will use linear regression to find a line that represents the relationship between PvP and PvZ.

There are two parameters to your typical line. One is the slope and one is the x intercept. The slope tells us something similar to the previous test. We’re going to ignore it. The x intercept tells us the average performance of the group. A positive means over-performance, a negative means under performance. Here is that chart: https://i.imgur.com/Oa6EAON.png. Protoss have a mean of 39.3 & zerg has a mean of -17.6. Toss perform 40 elo higher in PvZ than their PvP would expect and zergs perform -18 elo lower in ZvP than their ZvZ would predict. So we have a difference of 57 elo. That comes out to a 58% win-rate advantage for protoss in PvZ. That factors skill out of the equation if you assume the pool of PvP players is roughly the same in skill as the pool of ZvZ players (there are reasons to doubt that that is the case, aka apm/spm/supply block time/how many resources they float, etc, but that’s a story for another post).

Another point worth making is that this is the average performance of the entire pro scene as a group. The problem is that Elo tends to lag. If players don’t play games, their rankings don’t update. In a theoretical scenario let’s say we buffed Protoss to 90% win-rates. It would take time for the whole population to reflect that because they have to play games, win or lose, and their rankings have to update. If every player plays 1,000 games, it will update quickly, but if every player plays 0 games it will never update. This data is probably somewhere in between. This isn’t the final win-rate, it’s a snapshot of the current win-rate average as it moves towards the final win-rate. It’s like inertia in physics. A heavy ball is harder to accelerate than a small ball. The weight of the ball is how frequently people play games.

In order to estimate the final win-rate, we have to measure the change of the win-rate over time. That becomes more complicated. The take away is that the group has a resistance to change and that means we are probably under estimating the win-rate difference.

We can solve this problem numerically. We simulate players playing games until we get data looking like the pro scene. Then we hit PvZ with a massive protoss buff by setting the PvZ win-rates to 90%. We track how many games it takes for the rankings to update totally. We do this a bunch of times with a bunch of random values for who is favored, how many games are played per day, and we fit a polynomial equation to it. We should get an equation with a very tight fit. We find where on that equation we are for the current scenario and it outputs the final win-rate & amount of time to get there. It’s a big task, it’s not worth it, PvZ is busted and there’s plenty of evidence to show it.

This definitely shows toss is busted, but it doesn’t show a balance perimeter. To me, a perimeter means “within this group, we have unusually high performance that is not seen elsewhere”. The test I used doesn’t indicate that balance changes depending on certain skill clusters. It indicates protoss as a group all benefit from the same amount of imbalance. The imbalance applies equally in other words.

This test has only been done on the pro scene. Maybe balance does vary on the ladder. The ladder has a broader spectrum of skill levels. It might. I haven’t tested it.

I made this prediction in advance to Serral beating Maru at the most recent tournament. Bnet crazies are still denying the power of predictive algorithms left and right. Time and time again, the algorithms have pin point precise predictions. I even bragged that I was right before the tournament results came out. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to brag about being right then being proven wrong – can’t brag unless you are 110% certain. I just can’t stop winning, lol. Just gotta stack the wins sky high until they topple over, then start a new stack. They call me Mr :cool:. The trolls be spitting :fire: but I am sitting here like :sunglasses:.

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Predictive algorithms are used IRL for a reason, and they’re incredibly useful for all sorts of purposes.

However that doesn’t mean they’ll be 100% accurate. As much as you can be 80%, 90%, 99%, 99.5%, 99.9% certain about something occurring, that doesn’t mean it’s a 100% likelihood of doing so.

This DH, it was one game that made all the difference, and any one thing could have changed it; latency, different computers, different keyboards or mice, different screens, better sound quality in game, different alerts being played in game, and most importantly, the “human” factor, which in itself encompasses so many different things. Serral’s victory over Olivera came down to one game.

I will say though that regardless of who won - Serral vs Olivera was a banger series and extremely close - it really could have gone either way. Serral vs Maru… not so much I was genuinely disappointed that Maru choked against Serral again. Not really surprised, but disappointed nonetheless.

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Yeah there is a maximum accuracy just due to unknowable factors like whether someone catches a cold, or had trouble sleeping, before a tournament. I’ll checknout olievera vs serral, I probably won’t watch anything else. Sc2 esports boring A F since I started modeling it. It take all the surprises out of the experience, with minor exceptions.

Right now the mechanically gifted player is strongly favored to advance. So sc2 outcomes are resolved via multitasking. That’s why serral wins, no matter how many times zerg is nerfed, and why prootioss cant win. Their top protoss uses 1 army hotkey for crying out loud. Do people realize how insanely restrictive that is for what army maneuvers are possible? It probably reduces the options by a factor of 10. Toss players were used to cannon rushing and 2 base allins, u can’t do that anymore, you have to play the long multitasking game, and they just can’t do it well enough to win premiers.