but can you honestly say that the queen is bad? its still core and built all game by good players.
i would be okay with restoring some of the nerfs to queens if they weren’t allowed to go in nydus. that was the source of the queen nerfs in the first place.
i would suggest restoring the full HP transfuse (No heal over time), transfuse usable off creep, in exchange for queens not being able to be in nydus
They build queens because zerg economy scales faster than production, meaning you can’t spend your money via inject alone. You have to have an alternative production channel. That means queens or spines or spores. Those are the only options. It’s less of an “queens are good” and more of an “I have to spend my money somehow, and this is the least bad option”.
Nah, doesn’t fix any issues. Late game PvZ is an issue of mobility (zealot, recall), efficiency (storm, disruptors, interceptors), range (tempests, carriers, feedback), mineral dumps (static defense, spores are useless meanwhile shield batteries are equivalent to free carriers), peak army strength (also known as supply efficiency), vulnerability to timings, strength of tempo play.
In every regard protoss has the advantage. Recall and warp gate are impossible to keep up with if played correctly. A swarm of zealots could hit left, right, or main with the prism; too many possibilities which is equivalent to a mobility advantage. Same for recall. The toss army is insanely efficient via interceptors, storm, and healing that costs minerals-only. Toss has the range advantage in every interaction – infestors vs templar, carriers vs corruptors, tempests vs ground units. Mineral dumps are equivalent to free gas for protoss, zerg has no equivalent. Protoss peak army strength is insane and can easily wipe 3 maxed zerg armies via storm & interceptors & battery healing. Protoss has no vulnerability to timings (when the protoss scouts & prepares properly). The only tempo play vs protoss is adrenal, +2 ling bane, and attacking the base farthest away from his main army. This rarely works due to warpgate & recall.
The game is impossibly rigged against zerg. Literally the only advantage zerg has is multitasking. If you can out multitask a protoss, he will not be able to use his advantages because he isn’t paying attention to his army. The problem is that in order to achieve that outcome, you need to have a truly tremendous gap in multitasking skills. There are 6200 toss players who don’t use any hotkeys. It’s the definition of lazy / minimal effort. I detailed one on the forums a week or so ago. PiG casted a game where a toss had 21 seconds to react to a ling runby and he didn’t. He lost an entire base because of it. Serral & others win in PvZ because the toss in the pro scene are absurdly weak in the mechanical skills, but for anyone else it’s literally impossible to beat a protoss of equal skill. The game is incredibly rigged. This protoss, who apparently never looks at the minimap, gave Reynor a run for his money by maxing, f2’ing and a-moving a deathball at reynor. If I ignored an attack for 21 seconds, I couldn’t get GM as zerg. It would be impossible. You need split-second reactions to every sighting of enemy units or you just die.
The point is, relying on multitasking to beat protoss isn’t a fair way to balance the game because it requires extraordinary effort to beat a protoss who puts in literally zero effort. Some protoss in the GSL don’t even use multiple hotkeys and they are beating players like Dark and Maru. 
It’s no joke. I saw a code s player accidentally reveal he was massing phoenix because he f2’d them to the zerg’s army. It’s unreal. We’re supposed to expect these guys to beat serral. It’s never going to happen, no matter how many buffs happen. You can’t make a protoss actually look at the right place at the right time, no matter how many buffs happen.
PvT ayyyy lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Truth is we can choose the perimeters on how you measure who’s leading. At the moment I have issue with top 16 GM being completely dominated by their vP performance.
Obviously but they need to be consistent. And If Not there have to be explanations. Like for example pro Ladder dying in 2020(?) with void Ray meta. All the Pros nahhh f it protoss gonna Play void Ray anyway so its Not good practise. And for 4 years now the ladder is extinct because they rather practise in Secret. Where is lambo on the Lader ? Reynor. Serral. Elazer ? They used to Play massive amounts of Matches. Not anymore.
https://streamable.com/yx9uh4
5500 toss ladies and gents. He plays sloppier than a masters 2 zerg, but he’s top 10 on na GM. Gotta love it. Yes, he won the game. 
This is my win history right now: https://i.imgur.com/UUBVr9V.png
2 losses to the same barcode protoss at 5500. You’re telling me a guy with a 65% ZvT and ZvZ win-rate can’t beat someone who plays this bad. Yep, that’s exactly what I am saying. Apparently a toss who can’t micro is my kryptonite. He’s magically amazing in ways that are unquantifiable. It’s beyond science. Protoss skill defies reality. Their brains are just so huge they don’t need micro to win.
I really want to highlight this pair. It exactly demonstrates why this whole affair is just a troll.
In 2017; Protoss had better players, so it got more premier wins. But also in 2017, Protoss had a very low %-of-GM. What that says is… that GM population is not very representative of the top echelon’s performances.
Which I’m sure we can all agree, that i.e. Serral being top 2 in like 26-27 of the last 30 tournaments he’s attended doesn’t mean Zerg’s imbalanced in any capacity.
I agreed with the general thrust of the underlying argument - over-representation in GM obviously indicates more of a problem than wins-all-the-premiers by virtue of sample size - but it’s become increasingly obvious that it’s just whining.
This is demonstrably not the case - otherwise, the “Nydus Worm erupts with full tile of creep around it” wouldn’t have been the case. Being able only to Transfuse on creep is specifically a nerf to prevent Hatchery Queen-walks from working, and forcing an extra point of weakness in the strategy (overlord and/or tumor) since it was so hard to answer.
Not at all unlike the Dark Templar’s blink putting its attack on a cooldown, the Widow Mine and Lurker’s fast burrows being slowed - Dealing with early Queen-Roach walks was fairly difficult - entirely on the back of the spammed Transfuses undoing all chip damage when you don’t have enough damage output to fell them quickly.
I’m old enough to remember when the queen had 3 range (air and ground both), so…
This is mine, notice how I only get 1-2 points per win but -24 for a loss. SMH the favoritism is unreal.
h ttps://imgur.com/a/yUS7m44
That’s an old screenshot. Modern bnet ui doesn’t show the lost point values. I can’t reveal account names because I legit have stalkers in my dms. A dude messaged me on discord legit 20 times before I replied, lol. I got people clicking through & messaging every GM in grandmaster asking if they are me. Psycho vibes. I know who did that one, too, it’s a guy called Timorus. It’s the price you pay for clowning on gms with meme builds. They just hate your guts forevermore.
I’ve just started leaving vs protoss. No point playing the game out. Save the time and queue a terran or zerg. Protoss will get tired of PvP eventually. Just spam f10+n over and over at the loading screen. They actually think they are entitled to your time, lmao. Guess again.
It doesn’t even hurt your mmr. You just transfer the mmr loss to the next terran or zerg you face. You leave vs a 4800 toss and then beat a 5500 terran in the same amount of time, net zero mmr, but you don’t have to play vs protoss. Amazing.
All of which were warranted.
8 AA range on the queen was absurd and far to strong as it was.
125 HP instant heal was bullsh!t and made queens quite literally immortal in early pushes, both aggressive for zerg and defensively when you attacked into them.
Creep spread was always one of the most oppressive things in the game and was far to easy to spread and far to hard to limit.
Inject was nerfed along side Mules and Chrono (though chrono’s nerfs were eventually reverted when they reverted the redesign) when they adjusted the macro mechanics at the start of early LotV.
Queens are still good even despite those nerfs - they’re genuinely still one of the best defensive units in the game.
I’m not sure if you’re meaning that I’m trolling in what I’m saying, or not.
Sure, it means he’s an incredibly good player since he remained at the top even after several nerfs.
People complaining about the nerfs Zerg got though, seem to be unaware of (or blatantly ignore) just how strong Zerg actually was prior to those nerfs though. There is a reason that, for multiple years on end, Zerg had more premier tournament wins and runner-up positions than both protoss and terran combined, while also having the most unique victors and unique runner ups.
In 2023 and 2024, other races have a much more reasonable chance to win and Zerg has been brought more in line - They’re still capable of winning tournaments, but it’s not so egregious as to win almost every tournament.
Plus, maps don’t favour them quite as much as they used to.
Snipe -130dmg, is no better?
But I find it funny how medi with a passive ability heal more than Queen with an active ability.
Queen’s heal over time is so lame since you can only heal on creep.
The double nerf was unnecessary.
we remove marine -1 range and -10 hp, i think marine will still be one of the most versatile units in the game despite this nerf.
Chronoboost technically was still nerfed. Overall, the cost was doubled and the duration was increased by 40% compared to the WOL and HOTS versions. This works out to a 30% nerf. The “duration” only looks the same if you don’t account for the fact that LOTV multiplayer shows all durations, cooldowns, etc in “faster speed” instead of editor values.
it is when it’s cast time is interruptible and is a much later ability. Queens are literally one of the first units you get in game, and you have transfuse from the word go.
Dedicated healer that’s 100/100 and has Passive heal that heals slower than queens instant 75hp heal +50 hp over time in addition to the instant heal they still have.
I’m not going to complain about that, personally, but I can see why it could be to far.
a 20% range nerf (5 range to 4 range) and the removal of combat shields is absolutely much larger than any of the queen nerfs that occurred.
For reference, the queen range nerf (8 to 7) was a 13.5% range nerf on a unit with an already long air-to-ground range for an early game unit.
Still absolutely versatile, as a unit, but given the way the game works, it would make the unit nearly impossible to use at all, and genuinely terrible at all given its already short range and extremely squishy disposition. It would change pretty much every interaction in the game that the marine has. They would no longer survive 1 bane hit like they do with combat shields. Storm would kill huge swaths of marines before they even have the opportunity to move out of range due to stim’s health damage. Roaches adepts, stalkers and pretty much every early game ranged unit would have to be rebalanced due to the loss of that early range.
Lets take it even further and say that instead of just removing combat shields, you keep the CS upgrade but remove 10 base health - which I think is what you’re suggesting in the first place.
TvP and TvZ both become entirely unplayable. Oracles and Adepts 2 shot marines and marines can no longer be used as a defensive unit because they suddenly have 35 health, and are not worth the cost of the unit at least until they have combat shields. Zerglings alone shred marines at this point, and you can’t produce fast enough to hold anything if you try to expand. Every game becomes a factory rush build that then transitions into mech - which is god awful against protoss especially, but isn’t hard to counter from the zerg side at almost every stage of the game between swarm hosts, blinding cloud, ravager biles, nydus worms and early ling floods that just kill you since you can’t defend with marines long enough to actually start building a mech army.
There’s so much knock on effect from your two suggested changes that the game literally becomes unplayable for Terran, and I haven’t even gotten started - there’s so much more that your suggestion would screw up from the word go that it’s genuinely hilarious you think they’re even slightly comparable. Which, obviously, was not the case for the queen nerfs.
Right, I forgot about the fact that chronoboost cost more energy in HotS and WoL
almost forgot, balance team treatment.
2 Nerf, for this you need 2 random copensation buffs.
1- Depot 1+ vision: as a buff for defence with siege tank.
2- Tech-lab only on Barrack: 16->14sec early access to tec unit, as support for weaker marine. better players can take advantage of this for faster tech-lab production other buildings.
3- Combat Shield: 79->60 sec, cost 100/100->100/50 for quick access to Combat Shield.
Now Miro should be happy, it’s 3 buff to 2 nerf.
Stupid comment is stupid. I’d ask you to try again with an actual counter-argument rather than this inane rubbish, but the two brain-cells you do actually have are busy trying to remember how to breath and are hard pressed to do anything else, let alone come up with anything intelligent.
Why are you being so rude? I thought you were happy about the compensation buff for Terran.
I find it funny how seriously you take the idea. And immediately panic. When most people know that bio will never get a hard nerf because of the fake micro hype. The last two patches were buffs for bio-play.
and why are you discussing with your 2 acc? you can also just quote yourself, then you don’t need a second active acc.
It’s not panic, it’s genuine consideration for the suggestions you’re putting forth as to their effect on the game; especially when you were also simultaneously comparing your “suggestions” to nerfs other races got that were in no way game-breaking or putting a race into a position that was literally impossible to play from.
I’m aware bio won’t get nerfed - at least not in the way you suggested. But we’ve also had criminally stupid nerfs happen in the past cough marauder cough despite knowing exactly what would happen. Also, “fake micro”? That’s genuinely hilarious.
My 2nd account is also called Miro and is a transfer from the old SEA server back when it was still around, and I don’t even use it. I don’t think I’ve even logged into it for over a year. I don’t have any others. Why do people keep insisting that I’m several different people?
Because you deserved it.
Aside from the fact that the “buffs” were in consideration for nerfs that were much more drastic, they were also incredibly stupid, and clearly aimed at inflaming given:
So yes, I responded with appropriate vitriol to someone whom has, frankly, had very little to contribute other than what I can only be genuine stupidity.
The whining featuring constant spam and wholly unrelated topics.
Ignoring the context of the two units, single target instant damage is actually better than the instant heal as far as the game goes. This is because churn from units dying is an improvement because it incentivizes action to be taken and prevents a tiny number of a given huge unit from stealing the game away.
As an easy example, consider Transfusing an Ultralisk or Battlecruiser*. These units have base armor, so each point of HP is worth more than if it was on another despite having the same energy cost.
It’s further worth more because the more expensive, higher tier, and longer-to-produce a unit is, the more effective it tends to be in some capacity. It’s even more the case that, because these are bulky units, you will have the time to transfuse them when they get low for full value.
This is the entire basis of the SCV-pulling Thor all-in, for example. You soak damage with the Thor, which is mass-repaired by the SCVs, which means your squishy Marines are free to do damage while staying low risk.
Having up front high damage abilities, in contrast, forces the other player to avoid constant skirmishing that abuses energy-based healing, on two axes - it might result in a kill and thus nothing to heal, and generally the damage ability does more damage per energy, so it will outpace regeneration but similarly not have a ‘permanent cost’.
*it’s an example.
Because what you said makes you look like an idiot or a troll.
This is especially true because it came almost an hour after Miro’s fairly long-form and intricate rebuttal to exactly why the suggested nerfs are problematic.
As a result, it doubles down that you think this is a good idea (bullheaded at best), or that you are simply not interested in engaging in any level of discourse - there’s already too much frankly stupid trolling going on so Miro is simply upset.
Coming out with “Oh, 3 buffs > 2 nerfs” completely misses any thing of value. You do not need to pre-compensate nerfs with buffs and you shouldn’t be comparing quantity of alterations because of how comprehensively different things are.
None of the three buffs you suggest do anything to the laundry list of issues that lowering Marine HP to 35 creates. Nor anything to alleviate the similarly massive set of flaws that become apparent with lowering their range to 4.
So go back and read Miro’s post. It outlines a lot -
1. Marines losing 20% range is huge - that range is one of the very crucial things that keeps Marines relevant when they’re in small and large numbers. How can either the beginning of the game, or a mid-game bio-ball adapt to this reality?
2. Marines losing 10 life means even if properly handled, one Baneling hit kills a whole blob. Psionic Storm goes from “deadly” to “nearly uncounterable” because of how its underlying ticks work. Is your intent to remove Marines as viable army units?
3. Roaches counter Marines even harder, since they share a range it’s much more likely for the Roach’s attacks to launch. This, combined with
4. The Adept curbstomps the Marine out of living privileges before Combat Shields is done; means that the unit isn’t particularly viable in early game states either, unless you rush Combat Shields. If you’re rushing Combat Shields, you can’t rush Stim, which is what lets the Marine deal real DPS.
5. In early game small number situations, the extra bodies of Zerglings will let them demolish the Marines - unless there’s that mid-sized critical mass where the Marines can kill Zerglings as they approach - which wwwon’t really happen because of the range nerf.
So, question; are you logging into the forum as three accounts?
Because I don’t think so; so you should know that the same is true here. Miro is only Miro.
Gotta love the bnet whiners crying about 125 insta heal aka far worse than constant healing like shield battery or medivac. You’d better put that transfuse on the exact right unit because if you accidentally transfuse a zergling, transfuse a unit that’s going to die no matter what, or transfuse a unit that has very little damage, you wasted 125 health. Imagine how hard protoss would cry if shield battery were that hard to use, lmao. The salt would be unreal. Having to simply turn the shield battery on is too much of a hassle for even code s protoss. Imagine if they had to actually click each unit they wanted to heal.
Bnet whiners will gaslight anyone about anything. The reason transfuse is coupled with high health/armor units is because they are the only viable transfuse targets. Otherwise the transfuse is simply wasted in 90%+ of scenarios. These targets don’t have any real penalty from the tranfuse nerf because they generally survive long enough to get the full heal.
The transfuse instal heal nerf had one purpose. It was to make it easier to snipe hatcheries. The ironic thing is that hatchery sniping is incredibly rare. If a zerg is to the point where an opponent is on top of a critical hatchery, the game is already over. Zergs simply don’t allow you to get that close. Transfuse nerf did nothing towards the intended effect. In the past, a zerg could stack 50 transfuses on a single hatchery to absorb virtually infinite damage. A terran could have his whole army hitting a hatchery and it could stay alive if the zerg had enough high energy queens in range.
The transfuse nerf was actually a covert buff. The reason being that having constant healing over time is much stronger than instant healing for the reason I mentioned in the first paragraph. You are way less likely to waste healing. You can hit a roach with it & it can heal a full 125 hp even though it doesn’t have that much HP available to heal because it’s taking damage at the same time. So they ironically buffed it. I don’t talk about it much because if the balance counsel finds out they accidentally buffed zerg, they will hit it with the nerf nuke. They’ll just delete transfuse from the game. You probably think I am joking but I am not. They are that biased.
Not only will the balance counsel delete transfuse, they will make shield battery overcharge automatic. The first battery to take damage will automatically overcharge or some bs like that. Can’t expect protoss to actually do basic things in the game like targeting their own abilities.
What scenario were you thinking of?
example: queen def and you have to heal a queen several times, the heal is useless over time. as far as i know you can’t stack it. queens vs lib.
or do you mean in the sense of roach vs marine you heal x different roach these then have something of the heal for longer.