Ya what was there rational for nerfing AAM?
2 Likes
??? Are we looking at the same thing here?
Raven is getting nerfed into the ground. Again, with every ability taking some pretty sizable nerfs without really fixing the issue the raven has that mean people avoid building it in the first place.
Sensor tower nerf. Sure I can understand this.
Cyclone is getting nerfed. This is out of left field, actively making it worse against literally everything itās supposed to be used against while ābuffingā it against light unitsā¦ which already die to it anyway because they donāt have the HP to survive its lock on anyway. This is in no way a buff. There would be exactly 3 units this would be an improvement against, while effectively gutting it vs everything else.
Ghost - massive nerfs. EMP gets its radius nerfed overall, and just about everything not an off creep queen, and a slowverlord can escape itās Steady Targeting ability now. I understand why it needed a nerf, but this really has the potential to simply gut the ghost altogether and remove it from TvZ entirely.
Only thing thatās really a buff is the banshee research time and cost reduction on Hyperflight.
The reality is that itās a Zerg favoured patch, nothing more.
2 Likes
zerg and protoss pro players, there no terran pro players who doing the balance
1 Like
After watching Harstem, Artosis, uThermal, and Winter review the patch notes I have come to submit an essay to retain the ability to call myself a terran main. I am a 2v2 random player and personally I have a style to compartmentalize the learning process of the game for me as I am still relatively new, this allows me a mastery over certain units/playstyles and next to no experience with others and should give a unique insight. Typically the units I do not use are very niche and requiring of optimal usage to gain their value, or otherwise are units I have deemed too expensive. A lot of these units were changed in this patch, I think it is a good patch, and now I will comment on them.
Creep tumor: Requires constant management to spread, I am very good at spreading creep however I neglect it entirely in favor of the other energy options, in 2v2 creep is almost a detriment unless both of your players are zerg. I donāt really have a problem with creep and how it works, I think it is perfectly viable to not use it, that may signal how good it actually is.
Viper: Requires babysitting in much a way a high templar might, squishy and practically only a spellcaster. Units that do nothing in your army (no dps) but rather support the army do not feel great to use, specially in combination with their often high cost that could otherwise go into army units. Specifically they enable strategies that are not strictly required but otherwise optimal in countering certain playstyles like defensive or capital unit heavy. I would prefer those playstyles be weaker than these units stronger.
Ultralisk: The large size was a detriment to using them as often you can lose multiple before they get to attack, overall only sending in a few at a time was a good way to avoid this, however this change alleviates that issue. I think they were in a fine spot before but I almost never see them used.
Hydralisk: Hydras are overall weak and the roach is a much preferred option for most players, but being one of the zergs few options to counter air units I much prefer the hydra to be a good option as opposed to corruptors. Corruptors are expensive and had the downside of being unable to attack ground units, and I see many games lost when the zerg builds too many corruptors and has no supply or resources left to counter ground units, this could be remedied by making brood lords but is overall unsatisfying way to be able to counter air units by trading off ability to kill ground as well by making hydras, much like vikings but worse.
Brood lord: Definitely were slow, overall I think spawned units needed their health or damage reduced, in this sense both were. They suffer the same composition error as corruptors in that they can only hit ground units, more or less requiring a specific micromanagement of resources in order to get optimal efficiency in countering enemy armies, this doesnāt feel good when you should be focused on building a good army for yourself instead.
Shield battery: Yes overcharge was too good, it was often a surprise to me to see in pro play maybe even 4 batteries around a nexus without a single cannon in the mix. In 2vsAI I have a cannon contain build where I leave them with 4-5 bases total and cut off access to their third base location, optimal placement of cannons (with shields researches rushed to buff them and phoenix support) required 4 to 5 cannons per one to two shield batteries per 1 pylon, outside of this they can rush and destroy the structure more easily.
Observer: Many times with a ground based army you are put under pressure by lurkers or dark templar, the inability of the observers to reinforce your army at a quick pace could be deadly.
Disruptor: Again a design that does little for your army but to counter enemy units, in this case it counters anything on the ground and was oppressive in usage, I like that the templar will be a better option now.
Carrier: I have said the HP on the interceptors needed to be reduced, or at least the cost increased. Cost increase because the anti air structures do absolutely nothing to stop a carrier, at least in the case of battlecruisers they must take some damage or use yamato to get through. With marine heavy compositions it was nearly impossible to chase down a group of carriers if your opponent has any micro, the moment you stop killing interceptors you lose tons of marines, if you do kill the interceptors the carriers get away, in this case it is easier to kill the interceptors to engage the carriers. Fun factoids in season 52 vs AI I had produced 228 carriers, lost 14, killed 4,628 units for a KD average of 330.57, only outpaced by my BC record of 551.00, this doesnāt mean much overall but brutally honest those AI are better than a large portion of the playerbase.
Forge: I have a few build orders that rush a forge before a core and proceed to upgrade as soon as possible, throwing almost all the chronoboosts onto it. One such can get me kills vs diamond/master 2v2 players with dark templar drops with +2 weapons at about 5-6 minutes. The tightness of the build orders require specific timing of the chronos, actually only one chrono can go into the first level of upgrade without downtime on queuing the next, this change may cut out that chrono in favor of unit production and obviously allows for quicker upgrades for ground based unit comps. However I question the necessity of the change and if people will finally realize shield upgrades are good for your air army as well as your structures and is quite literally one of the main strengths of protoss.
Ghost: The upgrade is of course required the moment you intend to use EMP and constitutes bad design, the ghost itself is rather powerful overall and is actually a good option in your army not just as a spellcaster. The high emphasis on spending on this unit was probably not a good thing when it was both difficult to use and punishing for your opponent. Much like the high templar it could be made easier to use and a bit less powerful.
Banshee: Hyperflight rotors was too costly to even get, rather an extra banshee is often a better option, banshees themselves lend to this problem in that they have snowball potential with cloak. I even have a build where I refuse to get cloak due to cost and the banshees just function in my army as an anti-tank/ultralisk option.
Sensor tower: It is very costly but the power of it is not to be understated, often being like an active battery overcharge that you refuse to go into the area at all. Reducing the range is good.
Raven: Was too costly and too fragile to be all that good, like the sentry, however the need for detection from it made it usable and the abilities made it great. Auto turrets themselves should not be looked at as weak and probably needed adjustment.
2 Likes
Lmao. Yeah ok whatever.
Agreed. It will take a bit more micro from the carriers using players, and a bit less from the opponent, while the requirement was completely asymmetric in this situation. This change is most welcome. 
Come on Miro, Iāve known you to be more moderate usually. First this is a Public Test Realm patch. It isnāt certain all changes will be carried along as is to SC2, would it be solely in terms of bugs fixing.
Now, I also think the Zergs are the ones who get the upper hand on this patch, but they also were those who got the heaviest nerfs in the previous one. So overall, in terms of general balance, it kinda seeks to balance out the favored PvZ the nerf of the transfuse had produced in a skytoss dominant situation (with an Aligulac PvZ between 51 and 57% since March 2022).
The Ghost nerf, in particular the Steady Shot one, also comes to offset a TvZ between 49.5 and 53% ; as the ghost lategame is the dominant option in high level TvZs. They push the ghost away from being an all Z dexterity based counted, to one merely intended to counter slow, large or static lategame units, against which its strengh shouldnt differ a lot. This is simply a specialisation of the ghost (they donāt want them to keep chasing mutas or banes, but rather ultras, BL and lurkers).
This is the one nerf I donāt understand however.
Ravens interference matrix being only usable against psionical and mechanical units, aside from some mech builds (which use the raven in combination with hellions to decreep), it has little use in TvZ. It is useful in TvP (specially in vs colossi 2 bases timing pushs, or to deter a continued DT use), mainly used in TvT where it is dominant due to its utility against tanks, BCs or even vikings).
And thatās where I donāt get the logic behind its rework :
-
All casting spells are nerfed, and the value is decreased. Logically, the remaining utility toward which the raven is getting pushed to, is mobile detection. Yet, if we offset the supply providing value, mobile detection cost is +50M 50G for an overseer (12s) ; and 25M 75G for an observer (21s), so an overall +100 resources. Raven is 100M 200G (+300 resources) produced in 43s, with the additional requirement of a starport techlab (50M 25G +18s), which also prevents you from using said starport with a well needed reactor. So in other words, unless absolutely necessary (multipronged DT assaults), it isnāt worth (300 Ā±50 resources + 61s + no reactor vs 100 resources other races) being used for detection purposes only. Proposed raven (250Ā±50 resources, 47s) isnāt much more. Not to mention that its unability to escape mutas or even corruptors kinda offsets the scans saving value a decreep working team would offer in TvZ (and proposed creep spread is being nerfed).
-
So it itās not worth getting as a mainstream (non situational) mobile detector, and the nerf of its casting utilities must be intended to tone down the dominant TvT uses it has (Matrix vs tanks, BCs Ā± vikings ; AAM vs bio, vikings Ā± BCs). Problem of nerfing those :
-
- It would indirectly favor BCs play. Which, at below master level, is already just as cancerous to play against than the AI messing carriers. Go kill your BC in 8s before it teleports away, or with only -2 armor with your bioā¦
- It would indirectly favor BCs play. Which, at below master level, is already just as cancerous to play against than the AI messing carriers. Go kill your BC in 8s before it teleports away, or with only -2 armor with your bioā¦
-
- Same for mech, with it takes some micro and setup to advance against tanks with ravens.
-
- TvT put aside itāll significantly weaken TvP +raven two bases timing pushes. So Protoss will have a slightly weaker overcharge, but the terran wonāt be able to negate their splash.
-
Itāll be 33% less useful as a turrets base harass.
Under those terms, that leaves us with the following utilities for the proposed raven :
ā Situational detection (non spire TvZ, prolonged TvP DT play).
ā Anti siege-tank lines use.
ā BC counter.
ā TvP timing push.
ā Mild TvZ and TvT harass.
I wanna say, that while I appreciate the intent to buff currently underused units as itāll improve the metagameā¦ there, that one change might translate in the exact opposite. I mean itās hard enough to micro your bio and raven vs a-moving BCs or gateball colossi as is, if itās 33% weaker the question will be if itās still worth or not. And it already was deemed the caster with the worst quality/cost ratio of all as it currently is, with record setting nerfs of a 180 dmg splash to a current 0 dmg one.
To sum-up, TvT is the only match-up where the raven is dominant. Nerfing it so that it shifts away from TvT meta will translate in it becoming situational in other match-ups, and TvT remaking a step towards (boring to spectate, and cancerous to play) immobile siege phases.
1 Like
The cyclone is now twice as effective at AA. What are you smoking?
2 Likes
Of course, were you there holding the cattle? Of course they would ask Terran players too.
I compiled my thoughts about this patch
creep tumor
ā¦ cooldown - this is just because scarlet is too good at creepspreading
ā¦ sight - good, the sight range was too much
Hatchery
ā¦ creep spread - why? Do you hate proxying spine crawlers which isnāt even a good tactic? Will this make spines and other buildings built from a cancelled hatchery harder to pull off? Really, really bad change
ā¦ Sight range increase - Iāve spent soo much time finding blind spots in which to put spine crawlers. If this change goes through that time will be time flushed down the toilet. That tactic is not even good, and itās very easy to spot and prevent. Please donāt go through with this
Viper
ā¦ It might make them too vulnerable
ultralisk
ā¦ Size - the number one complaint Iāve seen about the ultralisk is that itās too bulky. I donāt think it needs a buff.
ā¦ slop - as stated I donāt think it needs a buff
Hydralisk
ā¦ Speed - hopefully they will be better against carriers. I think the hydralisk is generally a strong unit so I hope it wonāt be too significant
ā¦ Damage point - what does this mean?
Brood lord
ā¦ speed - good, brood lords are very bad
Broodling
ā¦ duration - I really donāt like this. Can they still counter archons like this? This will make brood lords which arenāt strong units more vulnerable
Ravager
ā¦ build time - Why? I think itās unwarranted
Shield battery
ā¦ Super shield battery - The super shield battery needs every nerf it can get. This is a start
Observer
ā¦ these changes seem insignificant
Archon
ā¦ inner radius - Why? What is the reason for this? Will tanks, ultralisks, thors also be able to fit between single gap walls? This change is rubbish and unfair. It changes the structure of the game. Please donāt go through with it.
High templar
ā¦ high templars donāt need a buff
Disruptor
ā¦ purifier orb radius - I never liked this unit. This change is a step in the right direction, while insignificant
Carrier
ā¦ shields - good. Sytoss has been the composition Iāve struggled against the most.
ā¦ interceptor attack priority - this can be huge. An extremely unwanted change if it affects your ability to focus on destroying the interceptors
ā¦ interceptor flying radius - this might make them easier to kill but itās a buff and thatās unwanted
Sentry
ā¦ build time - good, I agree with this change
Forge
ā¦ upgrades - with the state that protoss is at the moment, turtle and be invincible until you have an army thatās impossible to kill, Iād rather not see this buff
Ghost
ā¦ enhanced shockwaves - good. Iāve been waiting for this for a long time. Enhanced shockwaves was meant to counter infested terran, but infested terran was removed long ago so it didnāt make sense to keep it in the game. It was too strong
ā¦ emp radius - why? Not needed
ā¦ steady targeting range - I donāt know what this will mean in practice. Which units will be able to escape it?
ā¦ The ghost is very strong, some nerfs are warranted
Banshee
ā¦ the banshee is fine, while niche. This will just make it more annoying
Cyclone
ā¦ damage bonus - this change will make the already strong unit too strong
ā¦ remove all bonus damage except bonus against massive instead
Sensor tower
ā¦ range - good, I donāt think this building should be in the game
Raven
ā¦ poor Ketroc
ā¦ ravens are not strong, why are you nerfing them?
ā¦ gas - why build them if theyāre weak?
ā¦ Interference matrix - Massive units need a counter. If massive units werenāt as strong this might not matter so much, but I think it will
ā¦ Anti armor - I think this will be significant. I donāt like this change, it will make armored units stronger
ā¦ turret - Given how fragile ravens are turrets are not even that useful. Not a good change
Misc
follow aquire range
ā¦ this seems very significant. Please elaborate on what it means. Passive units (that are not activelly controlled) will be useless, is that it?
Dark Templar
ā¦ itās still too much delay
Widow mine
ā¦ The widow mine shouldnāt get buffed in any way whatsoever.
ā¦ random delar - Why not remove the random delay all together and add 1 second burrow and unburrow time to compensate? Inconsistencies are not good. (Yes I am trying to manipulate them into nerfing the widow mine. If I had suggested 10 seconds it would be immediately disregarded but by presenting just one second in a seemingly professional way I might get away with it.)
ā¦ Manual targeting - Manual egg targeting is good, it can make the unit a tiny bit less mindless. But that also means they will have a fresh shot for the units spawning from the eggs - terrible terrible terrible.
Shield battery
ā¦ Good that youāre fixing this at last
Stasis ward
ā¦ Attack priority - this will just make it easier to attack move without thinking about it
ā¦ stasis commands - they should not be able to issue any command
Raven
ā¦ these are not issues
Zergling
ā¦ I thought this was intentional. It will certainly make things easier, perhaps itās good.
Zergling/swarm host unburrow
ā¦ I canāt see why this would be an issue. Why should they be able to be given commands while unburrowing?
Liberators
ā¦ why should they be able to recieve commands while unsieging? I think this will make them easier to use, a bad change
Worker units
ā¦ this is the most significant change to me. Does this mean that workers will not deaccelerate when attacking? How will that affect worker drills; pocketing when defending from atttackers; worker micro; cannon rushing and proxy hatches? This change can be massive and you write it under misc as if itās nothing. Why do you hate me? Can we talk about this? Why are you doing this? Iāve learnt from that past that my attempts at making you change your minds do not seem to bear fruit but perhaps somebody else with more influence than I can prevent this change. I beg of you, please (I said the magic word) donāt go through with this. Anybody that can influence the balance team, if you exist, please make them change their minds about this
I still am usually.
I donāt disagree that ghosts needed a nerf. I donāt even disagree with how the nerf is applied, rather that the number itself is to easy to escape. But I suppose I am jumping to conclusions just a little bit. Still, Itās not entirely an exaggeration.
Also again, cyclone coming out of nowhere.
3 Likes
Raven abilities were garbage and they made it even worse.
Nobody was building 200 gas observer that requires separate production facility and nobody will be building 150 gas observer that requires separate production facility.
Banshee is not a good unit for anything but first several minutes of TvZ. Hyperflight rotors doesnāt change this fact and thatās why this upgrade was never researched. And will not be.
Ghost currently is nearly the only Terran unit that can actually attack into Zerg T3 army which by the way is going to be buffed dramatically.
Both Snipe and EMP are very important offensive and defensive skills.
I guess gameplay that Zerg whiners want is to lay siege to Terran wall of planetaries for one hour.
Or force Terran to cheese/all-in every game.
Sounds so much fun, right?
I would understand if EMP was moved to Raven (so that Ghost would not be universal unit and a counter to its counter with only real counterplay to it is āmicro better than Terran doesā - but many things work like this in SC2 so is that really a problem?) and IM moved to Ghost (and changed back to Lockdown, as things should be).
3 Likes
Ghost were just overloaded. more moba champion than RTS unit. and it would be nice if Ghost is only good against zerg T3, but Ghost are also hard counter to caster and solid fighter against light.
in some way Ghost should have been nerfed. rework snip, 2->3 sup, speed 3.94 ā 3.00 or 2.8, increase cast timeā¦
so i find it interesting that they reduce snip in terms of range, the thing that Terran has the most anyway.
1 Like
I have to ask you, do you believe that when Zerg get his T3 units he should automatically win the game?
Or alternatively, do you consider ~1 hour long game when one side is camping behind wall of static defense and siege units fun?
Have you played Starcraft 1?
Back there EMP was the spell of the Science Vessel, and Ghosts had Lockdown - spell with very long casting range that disabled (can not move or attack) target unit for ~40 seconds.
I never understood why it was changedā¦
Ghosts āSnipeā (āSteady Targetingā actually) is relatively recent addition to the Ghost: it was if I remember correctly added in response to overpowered Ultralisks rolling over Terran in early LotV and Terrans being forced to cheese or all-in every game.
I need to also remind that Liberator was much stronger back than; current Liberator is a shadow of its former self.
4 Likes
Snipe is best way to chase SH and lurker too. Too good but banshee and rotors I agree, isnt going to bring much. Banshee are just a fragile unit and I dont see someone making a bunch of them to fight what queens? Only good first mins. Vs toss this unit is completely meaningless on top of even more buff for observer
All in is what an RTS should be based around and more specifically this game, there is a reason you donāt have unlimited eco and when you promote defensive styles over offensive styles requiring timing to execute is exactly when you have that game where you lay seige for an hour or end up with ācancerousā strategies like mass carrier after every other bad but required for early game unit is dead.
1 Like
winter? LOL that guy a joke
they didnt, if they did then the ghost wouldnt be nerfedā¦ i can keep going. pros hardly use banshees so again. try again
dont talk dude. the balance is only protoss and zerg pros
2 comments:
1.) Can you NOT make the Ultra smaller? It looks much cooler when itās big and kind of silly when itās small, plus it doesnāt need another buff.
2.) Can you NOT make the disruptor nova radius smaller. I think itās a pretty good unit currently, and in tournaments Protoss have a low win rate anyways, so they donāt need that nerf. The battery overcharge nerf is enough.
All the other changes are good! Thanks!
2 Likes
What. That does literally not make any difference in terms of balance!
You can still fly them to the carriers and simply shift focus fire. This anyone above Platinum has learned.
Actually you Still want them to shift focus fire, otherwise your killrate is way too lowā¦ (kill one carrier quicker = less dps incoming)
If anything it helps the lower leagues, which struggle immensely with that really counter-intuitive behavior. So we got an improvement to the game without hurting balance almost - in terms of this change.
Most importantly on higher levels you never see just corruptors jumping on your carriers. Because there is always ground support, such as Archon or Storm and else. Let alone on pro level people use Vipers to get carriers out of that deadly combination. So that comment is not constructive for the game and pure saltyness or doesnāt care-mood IMO. (I donāt know why, seems to fear gold leaguers.) There is no change in balance in that regard.
GOod day.
Side note: Marines, Queens, and if the Protoss kites, even Hydras (mentioned cause they are buffed again) need to now be MORE microed (Hold position, so they wonāt try to run to the carrier being nearby and instead kill some interceptors that are in range, while the carriers are not in full range yet), since they possibly want to kill the Interceptors. For hydras it is debatable, depends on situation.
2 Likes
I already imagine protoss pro players being happy with carrier changes 
1 Like