google automatic targeting liqupedia. Essentially if you a click units in range of both carriers and interceptors they will auto target carriers now instead this helps alot with AA units like corruptors and is similar to how they recently made gargoyles prefer air targets to ground with attack click in wc3. So now if your in range you will auto target carriers so if you want to kill little boy ships you attack from out of carriers range with hold position and a click targets carriers as they get in range. focus firing will still be ideal just a nice qol change .
no but if you google what I said since I cant drop links the liquid website shows all the units and explains exactly.
I would preffer interceptors shields to 20.
there are other options, but I think this is the easiest.
Fix the 2v2 match making algorithm.
It seems people largely don’t like the change to Cyclones as it’s more of a nerf than a buff. That aside, would a buff in the upgrade from +10 to +12 damage (from +50% to +60%) per tick be a better compromise since that will allow them to handle targets like Stalkers, Infestors, Marauders and Battlecruisers better, but still not one-shot a Zergling (which I’m pretty sure is a deliberate design choice).
If they wanted to buff the cyclone, keep the vs armour damage the same as previously, make the upgrade take longer and cost more, but give it +5 or +10 to light with the upgrade as well.
At 100 seconds, the upgrade takes a pretty long time as it is (it’s unlikely it will eat into other upgrades because if you’re investing in Cyclones, you’ll likely have more than one Factory with a Tech Lab).
According to PiG (Does Terran finally have good detection!? First games on new balance test - StarCraft 2 - YouTube), most people didn’t think Cyclones were a problem unit so the change does feel a little bit mysterious. At least in battle mech compositions, Hellions were anti-Light and Cyclones were anti-Armored and anti-air (to a degree, they aren’t very good against Mutalisks or Phoenixes), so the two units covered each other quite nicely. Honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if this change is rejected.
(A +12 damage increase would permit them to 4-shot a Mutalisk when locked on rather than 7-shot normally (not 6, due to regeneration) and 5-shot with the +10 upgrade… that alone may make my suggestion questionable)
The funniest part about reading this thread is all the terrans complaining about cyclone changes as if they aren’t an overwhelming buff. Imagine if marauders got their damage vs armored halved (-5) and got +5 vs everything else? Apply the same to tank, colo, lurker, bane, stalker, etc and it becomes readily apparent that the positives vastly outweigh the negatives. Taking a unit that is specialized against one class and making it more generic is almost always a buff, more so for the race most limited by its costly production facilities.
Cyclones will now be better vs queens, banes, ravagers, lings, hydras, and mutas, the first 2 are units battlemech has the most trouble facing, in exchange for being worse vs roaches, broods, ultras, and lurkers. With the exception of the roach, all of these are units battlemech does not give two sh*ts over as the entire point of the style is to constantly pressure the zerg into making units instead of drones and trading cost effectively before zerg hits infestor tech.
And then the raven change, my goodness, one would think after 1.5 years of void oppression the community would be wary of dismissing a cost and build time reduction for versatile air units limited by their production facilities, especially so when the raven, although less stackable, has arguably more utility as a detector which could have significant impact for tvz midgame in saved scans if ravens do become standard.
Let’s not forget the high yet predictable inverse correlation between player rank and belief that zerg lategame actually got buffed, bl movespeed is going to make the transition into broods easier but the broodling change will heavily impact the ability of zergs at the highest level to beat ghost mech. Similarly the viper change is designed to not only make it vulnerable after abduct but remove the ability of single vipers to rapid fire, again this change is designed for the highest levels so it’s no wonder most people here dismiss it. Oh and apparently they don’t cancel disruptors anymore? Just another minor change not even worth acknowledging, right? Likewise for ravager morph time.
In exchange zerg gets 7% movespeed and better kiting on hydras and smaller more reliable ultralisks, both units that zerg wants to avoid making lategame as much as possible. To be clear neither the movespeed nor the size reduction are necessary, but the idea that these are significant buffs to zerg lategame is absurd.
Hey slipper why don’t you explain how zerg auto wins when they reach t3 when thor still counters broods @ 2-1 ratio despite broods being designed as the only capital ship that can’t hit air and every other race actually being forced to make air vs broods. The thor btw trades supply efficiently vs every single zerg combat unit, and bc with global teleport and energyless burst ability, 3 base armour, move while attacking, both units untouched and vastly superior to zerg’s combat t3 units. The primary reason for ghosts is to counter viper/infestor, it just so happens that the ghost is good against just about every other zerg unit to the point they’d rather adjust the emp radius to cement infestors as a soft counter because no other change can give zerg sufficient counterplay without massive redesigns.
Hey trio idk how you can in the same post say that zergs are wrong for saying ghosts are all-rounders while claiming hydralisks are one of the most versatile units in the game? Tell me which unit players go into the game with the explicit purpose of turtling to mass said unit regardless of enemy composition? Is this the hydra or the ghost? Hydras are universally agreed to be bad by not just zergs but many terran/toss pros as well in the lategame, no surprise really as it’s a gas costing marine that overkills and has artificial micro constraints. And toss upgrade research time is to move them away from turtle styles that became dominant when they nerfed timings, this is 100% a good change.
Hey terraria just want to point out how you dismissed my idea for hyperflight rotors buff as unnecessary and now almost the exact change I suggested is being tested in ptr.
Hey maro, what a ‘moderate’ terran you are to reference a tvp cheese nerfed so hard last patch it disappeared from pro play and tvt meme builds for why you think the cyclone change is a nerf, as if 1-1-1 and vikings are unheard of in tvt. Btw if you think bc builds in tvt are annoying imagine what it’s like for zerg who have to defend 3 bases + 4th building while only being able to make aa units from their town halls whose production prevents teching to the air units that actually counter bc.
As usual trasher is the only rational terran here, what a coincidence he’s also the highest ranked.
Gotta love seeing the tcf out in full force now that ghost is getting the nerfs it deserves and zerg gets some minor buffs to its worst units after 4 years of constant nerfs. Only one missing is their leader pikachu…
Overall thoughts: colo should get a partial revert now that disruptor is hit, vr needs lategame buff, abduct should not counter snipe if it does not counter nova anymore, ravager nerf probably too light (there’s an actual versatile zerg unit), bc rework + thor nerf + mine build time revert still needed, and in general terrans need to l2 make air vs zerg’s 3 tier 3 ground dominators like toss.
Oh and in addition to their 30% build time reduction, ravens now spawn with both IM and AAM. The only MU ravens got nerfed is TvT LOL
The hilarious part is that you think it’s an overwhelming buff - it’s not an overwhelming buff because aside from queens, mutas, ravagers and phoenix it directly nerfs the unit against every other unit in the game which it was supposed to be good against - units which you never wanted to lock onto in the first place are the ones that the cyclones is getting a buff against.
For units like zerglings, marines, zealots etc. the lock on really didn’t matter in the first place because you never wanted to target those units. It directly weakens the units against the things the unit was supposed to be good against in the first place, and will make things like early BC openings in TvT worse to play against because unlike both Zerg and Toss, Terran has little to actually deal with BCs early on - aside from cyclones.
Banes, lings and hydras you almost never wanted to lock on to anyway, though you could make a flimsy argument for locking onto hydras.
and corruptors. And overlords. And overseers. And swarm hosts.
The Raven change is… questionable for multiple reasons but you’re effectively paying 150 gas for a unit who’s abilities are nerfed by 33% in 2 cases while also having an increased energy cost, and who’s abilities are fairly worthless against Zerg in particular, while also taking up time that could be used on a valuable harassment unit like the banshee, or taking up production time of Medivacs. Oh and have no real ability to keep map control like oracles do. They’re the most expensive detector in the game - tied with oracles - and unlike oracles their abilities are pretty worthless comparatively in almost every matchup that’s not TvT, especially with the colossus change reducing protoss micro requirements against it further.
We’ve already seen that this really hasn’t been the case. The speed buff makes them able to react better to cross map scenarios, not to mention that it also increases their microability. The Broodlings effectively die at the same rate anyway with blueflame hellbats killing the broodlings just as quickly, so this really makes very little difference outside of making path-blocking marginally less effective, if that.
Making a unit smaller and more reliable gives you more reason to make the unit in the late-game.
The move-speed brings the hydralisk in line with roach move speed. It’s minor but it does mean the composition feels better to play, and especially when you consider how much more microable the combined move-speed and damage point change actually makes the unit.
When the unit that’s designed to kill massive air units does its job against a race who’s very design is based around being cost inefficient, I would expect that a 2-1 ratio to be about what you would see, if not more efficient.
Lategame BCs are a paperweight unless you’ve got them en-mass. They are quite literally the shortest ranged T3 unit in the game that isn’t the ultralisk. They are also the most expensive T3 unit in the game that isn’t the mothership. And they’re also slow enough that kiting with them at that stage of the game is meaningless. Which means Yamato+TP combo is the only thing that they have going for them - and fun fact, the reason nobody goes into BC lategame is because they’re bad unless massed.
I think it’s annoying, but much less annoying for Zerg than for Terran because you get access to sporecrawlers for free, and you get queens with 8 range (7 now I think?), transfuse and produce as many as you have hatcheries at a time, so you’re not really losing out on much, on the race that also produces economically the fastest and also recover the easiest.
Marines have 5 range, vikings have plenty of range but produce too slowly to deal with BCs early on, and also require gas. Still Ravens were a counter previously and could possibly be an extremely soft counter here but even that’s debatable.
Look, don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to give it a try, and am quite willing to wait and see, but I don’t see this going the way they want it to. And that doesn’t mean I won’t be voicing my thoughts on it either.
Hi, Merry Christmas! Sorry for sounding aggressive in the last post.
Most of what you said is reasonable, maybe battlemech will still be unviable, maybe the impact on banes will be negligible. If you saw some pro games with the bl on the new patch I’d like to see them as pretty much every game I’ve played in ptr is a stomp in one direction or the other.
However it seemed like zerg’s method of beating lategame ghost mech was sending wave after wave of broodlings fired at each other to chip away from long range. Even if bfh one shot broodlings, I think the duration change will still be impactful here. But again some high level gameplay of the new interaction would be welcome.
I don’t think I and many other zergs will ever see eye to eye with the thor being a massive killer argument, as the entire identity of the brood is sending waves of small units which one would think would be the perfect counter to ‘giant killers’ en mass. Furthermore if the thor was just redesigned to hard counter broods I can live with, but it’s the fact that it performs so well vs every other zerg combat unit that makes it ridiculous.
From wol to end of hots the bl was well known to be a soft counter to thors, in fact thor’s primary purpose was to fight mutas before, so when I see terrans say ‘thor is a massive killer’ it reads more like revisionism or propaganda than a design fact.
The reason this is said over and over is because blizzard has stated that was what they redesigned it into. Thats what they want it to be. I can understand disliking its ground strength though, and even agree with that to some extent.
With good micro, maybe - even now I would say it is kind if a soft counter with the correct micro - i will say that the shortened life timer does make it harder to perform that kind of micro. And zerglings specifically are brilliant vs thors, especially with adrenal, though that leaves the hellbats as the main issue then.
Thor has highest ground dps the dumb ideal is massive killer is Zerg has two air units.
It was given its massive range because to fight mutas.
Then they added nerf to make it counter all air units of Zerg.
Problem bc that to effective and it’s in terrans favor because it’s very hard to kill bc without going over bord.
Corrupters have poor dps need around 60 to one shot but bc need 5. Not counting one shot ability that has endless range that needs canceled button.
Ability to move and shoot it adds range. Queen that has 7 range but if chases bc it can’t attack but bc can attack it.
No actually, Thors are such a large and slow unit that they can’t work as effective anti-air against anything without long range.
It doesn’t matter what the Thor’s air attacks are specialized against. A 6/7 range Thor will always be effectively worthless as an anti-air unit.
The Thor’s anti-air DPS is also somewhat low because that anti-air is specialized for “range” and “durability”, not damage.
Corruptors are fast and extremely durable. They already beat almost all air units (sometimes including their intended counters such as Void Rays and Vikings) based on those stats. The only way Corruptors could be balanced with higher DPS is if their health and armor took a serious nerf.
Here are my thoughts,
Love all of the changes for the most part but,
–Rather than nerfing shield batteries, just remove the ability for SB to recharge shields to air units. SB were made to help with early game aggression, not cheese air strategies
– in exchange with Raven and Ghost nerfs, make Raven 100 gas and rival speed of the observer. You can even reduce the radius of scans by a few points to make it worthwhile.
– The Raven lacks the same utility as the Oracle that is heavily more efficient. Turrets at 75 energy make the raven a one shot wonder, and the counter to this is to move units/workers outside of the radius of the turret. Unless you reduce the TTL of the turret but make it deal like 300 damage a second, its not worth it.
– Battle Cruiser, I think the BC serves very few roles and all it has going for it is TP and Yamato. I would like it if the teleport actually worked LIKE THIS. Increase the BC time to leap by double, but make teleporting a timed duration where the BC returns to its original place after 15 seconds of warping. It would make the niche unit serve somewhat of a purpose, with the timed duration BCs cant pull out as soon as needed, and it wouldn’t be a mass-TP into GG. They would need to travel the map in order to be used once again and would invalidate their ability to escape if they get caught in a bind. It makes for a massive risk/reward system, and there would be far less reason to mass them since their effectiveness would be cut in half the moment they chose to teleport.
– With all of the nerfs to Protoss and Terran, Zerg can use a nerf to Spore Colony that will make it in-line with Protoss Cannon/SB and Terran Turrets, and thats forcing Zerg to make an EV chamber before they can make spores. Zerg have the best early game counter to harassment in the queen, and there should be one obstacle to at least allow some chances of early air harassment.
I think it speaks to their capacity as strategists. They aren’t looking at it from the perspective of all the news ways it could be used, they are looking at it from the perspective of “I use it this way and now it won’t work because you’ve changed it and because it won’t work it’s a nerf.” Creativity is pareto distributed. Roughly the square root of the people in the enterprise create half the ideas. Well SC2 has about 50,000 people in each region and the square root of 50,000 is about 200 which corresponds quite nicely with Grandmaster league. So these players will just have to wait for GMs to show them how nice the new cyclone is before they realize it was buffed.
Is there an extension mod for this or is it locked to just the PTR?
im a completionist, and im looking for the achievment too. Is anyone know when testing tab will be active?
Anyone know when ‘testing’ tab will be active, in order to get “balance of power” achievment?