There is something fundamentally wrong with TvP.
It is the only matchup where one player can take 3 bases and still all-in the other player that is on 2 bases and the 2 base player have to play perfectly to even survive, and then still be behind one base.
Something needs to be done. Either
You should try tank stim timing attack. You will nog have to worry about this matchup for a while
Nerfing units and upgrades isnt going to fix TvP. TvP is a design issue just as much as GGlord/Winfestor is against Terran/Protoss endgame. When you got mechanics like chrono that spew workers out faster than normal with a 12 worker start, itâs easy to see where this is going. Terrans do not have a lot of units early game because SCVs take longer to ramp up and orbitals take a long time to transform and cut worker production. Nothing is ever going to change because everyone dances around the real problems like nerfing units and upgrades instead of looking at the actual design problem that is the economy. The economy will always be the reason Protoss is ahead and itâs the same reason no matter what change they make TvP never changes or evolves.
I wonder why you cannot make SCV when upgrading CC to OC. Its 2 cycle of SCV lost. Not only mining early is problem but building stuctures, where for probe takes only split second.
I ALSO FELT SOMETHINGâS WRONG TOO!!
MAINLY TERRAN STUFF:
yes. thatâs you, thatâs an accurate representation of you-Jontron
Hey, you need to fight this guy first: It's over for Protoss in PvT
He think Terran is too strong in TvP right now.
The design of the matcup is wrong. TvT and TvZ are perfectly designed, both players have multiple options at all stages of the game and no player have to play against the clock.
TvP on the other hand is just wrong. Basically there are 3 stages and you have almost no option on how to play from the Terran perspective.
It may be balanced win rate wise if you have the mechanics of a Korean Pro player but from a design perspective it is just awful.
I know most people believe that the late game is protoss favoured, but honestly I really cannot believe this except for maybe at the very tip top levels.
Yes, it takes good control to use our late game army units. And when the golden armada hits, it feels like trying to stop an unstoppable force with a wall made of paper. But I honestly believe that a big part of it is mentality - if more players were willing to play the late game, they would be far more comfortable and know what to do in a late game situation versus protoss.
Obviously, this doesnât mean that you donât want to hurt them before that stage, because you definitely want to do damage, but you donât necessarily need to cripple them. If you slow them down long enough to get your late game units into play with their various upgrades, it is winnable with good positioning.
I agree that the match up is too much âpre-scriptâ. Early game you have to defend, mid game you have to push, late game, well⌠You have to be good. Hovewer watching last pro matches, I think Terran now has a powerful tool with the enhanced EMP. Now also P army can evaporate in seconds so errors are more punishing from both sides.
I have not seen one person say mules in this thread. You do realise thats a MAJOR boost in your eco?
Yes you have to wait for scv when the orbital is transforming, but thats why you get enough energy for a muleâŚ
Mules are better now then chronoboost is now in terms of eco. Terran doesnt need a fast 3rd base because of mules.
It would be a fun experiment to look at proâs early income from t and p who use a standard build. That should show how âgoodâ mules are.
Dont forget, chronoboost has already been halved in effectiveness cuz of nerfs.
Thatâs funny, because my analytics and my in game experience at the GM level tells me that terran economy is actually the one thatâs REALLY f*cked up and not the protoss.
When a protoss with 65 probes that goes 1 gate 3 gate, defends everything perfectly without losing probes while constantly keeping up itâs production, itâs upgrade can lose a game or be equal to a terran thatâs playing on 2base. YEAH there is an economy problem, how can one say that the economy is tilted in protossâs favor when terrans virtually have 10-15 additionnal SCVâs at all stages of the game. Terran is literally two basing you, you have 3 bases you deflected his first push but you struggle to defeat him when you should crush him with your 3 base production. But thatâs not what happens.
Not to mention how terran favored the lategame always was since LOTV and always will be, just learn to use ghosts and you will be fine, they just melt the protoss army while also unableing the protoss casters.
âanalyticsâ âexperienceâ thats one sided bs and you know it.
I want actually stats not what you âfeelâ is true.
Check resource collection tab in pro games.
Added to that, protoss can only hold the third base because they get a third base.
Warpgate units are weaker then MMM. Always has been. Stim timing reduced is looking to take advantage of this.
Protoss SHOULD be a base ahead if theyr forced to go warpgate units because otherwise they would just be amoved by stimmed marine marauder.
2 base vs 2 base allin who do you think is stronger? Terran or Protoss? Terran can already fight toe to toe 2 base vs protoss 3 base untill protoss tech arives.
Also that 65 probe lead is bs.
With WHAT is he defending everything? blink stalkers? chargelots? Now go to your replays check for the timings when the UPGRADES are NOT finished yet. and attack at that window.
Adjust.
Thats basically what sc2 is about.
haha, youâre so angry you donât realize when someone agrees with you. Very funny !
Prior to taking a 3rd base, mules wonât boost your economy - they supplement it for the amount of SCVs that get pulled off mining for construction, repairs and production, as well as the slowed SCV production from orbital upgrades.
You realise that 1 mule mines 25 min per turn right?
a normal worker gets 5 per turn.
Thats 5 workers u just get for free just like that. and idk what kind of fancy builds you do but i doubt you need more then 3 workers to build buildings with. And after theyr done, the mules keep falling regardless!
Also while we are talking about efficiency, 2 base has 2 mule. thats 10 workers mining for free just like that. 1 base holds up to 16 workers.
So terrans bases are 16 workers +5 per mule drop. So purely from a mineral perspective thats 42 workers vs the protoss 2 base 32.
thats approximatly 1/4th the income MORE for terran.
Sure, but again, you have to consider that thereâs at least 2-6 scvs off the mineral line at all times for production creation and depo production. With this in mind and chronoboostâs faster production of probes it turns out to be pretty even.
Personally speaking, I never really believed that Protoss was super far ahead, but I can see I wonât change your mind with the way economy works in TvP with regards to it being even. The faster third for Protoss doesnât really become an issue unless you stay on 2 bases for to long.
No i was just trying to make a point to show the numbers arent as simple as 2 base vs 3 base.
I dont know how much difference there is between the 2, like i said you should watch progamers and actually look at the income tab.
I think protoss is only slightly ahead of Tâs eco early game. And once you have your MMM making machine up and running the only thing you need to worry about is supply depots.
The third base starts when mules have already gathered an advantageous ammount. Protoss needs a quick third to stay on equal terms with mules.
Thats why 2 base terran pushes are so strong untill protoss eco kicks in from the third. Ussually full saturation happens after the first big terran push because protoss units are expensive.
upgrading is also a requirment for P in PvT because if you arent ahead on upgrades MMM will wreck your gateway army.
After the big first push of terran ussually that dissects into either killing the third successfully, wich automatically makes terran ahead eventho they didnt get a third up yet. Another option is protoss obliterating the terran push and the terran is at an eco disadvantage due to no third. And the last option is terran pressured toss into cutting workers to make army without losing too much and starts dropping to prevent toss from teching up too fast when taking a third themselves.
Every race should have strength and weakness. So why give the same race:
Terran is balanced around 4-5 top Korean Terran players. For 99% of the playerbase TvP is broken balance wise since it requires Terran to outplay Protoss by a large margin just to have a chance.
Not exactly. Though mule returns 25 mineral per trip, its mining time is much longer than SCV. According to liquipedia (https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/MULE_(Legacy_of_the_Void)), the mule is effective as about 3.8 SCV, not 5.
Protoss gets the third base faster but the gateway heavy mid game armies they go for nowadays are significantly less cost effective than the Terran mid game force, getting the faster third is needed to compensate for that.
From what Iâve seen the stim change isnât leading to Protoss outright dieing, but having to respect that strength is keeping thier Econ from running out of control like it did pre patch.
Ultimately since players on both side are complaining about the MU Iâd say itâs looking pretty good.