They would be if you nerf the queen again. Like limit it to 1 per hatch, increase the supply or cost. All of a sudden the bc opener is a deadly threat.
If you increase the cost, supply, or limit the queen all of a sudden thats either less lings or less defense against the bc. But gee golly you guys know wth your talking about.
Go ahead and redesign zerg to not be reliant on the queen and infestor. You wont like the result
Why wouldn’t he like the result? And how are Zergs “reliant” on Infestors exactly? I urge you to watch sOo and Dark and tell me in how many games do they make more than 4-8 infestors. The answer is not a lot (they’re also not very special in that regard despite what you may believe). They win a tons though, so what gives? Why do people keep arguing that the current infestors are somehow an inseperable part of the design of the Zerg race. Zergs were winning tournaments for a long time without relying solely on this turtling to bl/infestor crap meta. You’re not fooling anyone.
When was the last time soo won anything of note? And dark just all ins
soO is 5th in korean WCS standings if that doesn’t count for you I don’t know what does but he also won IEM + deep tournament runs - ro4 super tournament and GSL etc. But even regardless of that soO was super successful (need I remind you he was more than 6 times GSL finalist (dont remember the exact number). My point is you can’t possibly convince anyone that infestors are crucial and fundamental core unit for the Zerg race. Some Zergs are winning now and some have won in the past without using this unit almost at all.
And what’s bad about Dark all-ining? If he proves it can be that effective wouldn’t that alone imply that Zerg isn’t “reliant” on infestors?
Please link in the post where I suggested any of that.
Yeah so I watched a few of these games. It’s crazy that he floats like 10,000 minerals and gas in the middle of the game (game hasn’t even been decided yet) and is just crushing it against 5000 MMR people. Come on blizzard. Fix this already. The unit is broken.
nerf their spellcasters to the ground, then start from there by changing unit interactions etc to the point zerg can now compete without broken spell casters in lategame.
There are already strategies that dont rely on mass infestors such as nydus play or even swarm host nydus vs mech, mass ling bling in mid game into ultra + viper.
So we most likely wont even need to adjust too mutch to accomplish a zerg race being on par without infestors but for some reason blizzard ALWAYS looks to the infestor as the end all be all sollution to anything for zerg.
nydus is being nerfed and the ultralisk stinks at life.
hm i’d like to see the replays instead of VoD , honestly the first game that protoss was hellbent on making pheonicces work without making them work
game 2 good attempt but that onedirectional approach was not good, especially when keep in mind that he was bio heavy
game 3 he deserved to be killed since he wasn’t prepared for that early reaper attack, given the delayed gas and stuff early pushes will be deadly
same applies to game 4 since the same bo of terran
game 5 like in all games so far no detection in enemy base, okay the lack of spire units didn’t made is necessary taht turrets/cannons are in play but still without those inefstors ravaging the ecoline in the 3 games he won the story would be another entirely
after the 2prong medivac attempt i didn’t saw similar attacks which would alos have failed at taht point but still … also taht 2medivac drop was a good try basicly a minute to late, that one the terran threatened beasty’s 3rd
dunno why that terran was going for that but he didn’t even looked for the lack of gas in beastie’s main
in conclusion that build is bad if you catch zerg early enough aka with little to no queens, look at the winter’s gate game f.e.
so since he has with that games a baseline he should make a similar session in the balance patch mode and than re-evaluate his opinion, with that builkd f.e. BC rush is deadly since you don’t have infestors out or enough queens, especially when hellions also threaten aswell
we are to deep in current mechanics and unit interaction for things to change that way fundamentaly, member the outcry of toss against the warpin-change of warpprisms? or the current hate chargelots loosing the +8 damage?
iff you truely want to remake the whole zergrace by deleting inestors/queens all other units will basicly have to be bufffed in some form, which also needs some changes on terran and protoss side to get that somehwat balanced which in return also means tvp needs some adjustment
the start of LotV would be a perfect starting point in that regard since the economy change already had groundbreaking effect but we didn’t got that so yeah we are left with that situation right now …
as a tradeoff for inbuild neuro i could imagine an additional upgrade which allows infestors abilities of the units, otherwise it is just the attack and move command they are able to use in that state … or unlock np with hive (tech) which should toss and terran some breathing room
My brain is melting. Are you seriously analyzing this build? It’s obviously awful, do you have a better build that only uses Queens/Infestors? Don’t you realize that you trying to analyze these games as if it’s some evidence for anything is a complete joke. These games were played for entertainment purposes. The issue with Infestors/Queens being op has nothing to do with the actual games. Or do you hold the opinion that the only way a unit can be proven to be op is if “there’s a build which relies solely on this unit which can be executed by a diamond player and get him to GM”. Because this is how I feel most reverse balance whiner Zergs on this forum approach balance discussions and it becomes exhausting.
yeah i am analyzing that build, it isn’t the first time such stuff appears and most likely will not be the last, member the ketrock mass raven cancer stuff?
all those win games in that situation relied heavily that beast was able to pump out many queens and no units to support them so there is the vector of attack,
either overcome the amount of healing the queens can dish out or devide and conquer since he had nothing besides queens overlords and drones, getting damage done that way should be easier since the queens aren’t in on location
another key factor here was the his inffestors where able to ravage 3 minlines at once with burrowmove, lack of detection in enemy base, one simple thing to adjust since the tech to get turrets/cannons up at that point is already aviable
but yeah i get it anything BUT “Queens Inestor are OP” isn’t stuff you want to read
since those games where to showcase the awesome power queens and infestors have they also showcase weaknesses like the extreme wonky earlygame where few reapers killed him outright, same would apply to proxy gate play hitting before nuff queens are build prefereably when scouted that 3rd was taken before any gas …
I watched the first game and then stopped because the Protoss army was so terrible it was never going to beat anything. If that’s “proof” of anything, then I’m a billionaire.
ultras are bad, wich is why dark uses them and wins against players like maru etc.
Instead of repeating what everyone else is saying (ultras are bad) try and learn from people that are able to use said units to great success and even beat the best players in the world with it.
There has to be something youre missing if ultras are being used regularly on top level, or do you srsly think you know the game better than dark?
As for nydus the nerf is mainly targetting early mid game all ins and it will remain untouched in lategame (after you get the upgrade) and for swarm host play im not sure it will even have an effect as your opponent usually wont have a opportunity to kill said nydus before your already left.
because maru is such a bastion of late game play right?
dark rarely if ever goes to late game.
regularly? false. very very false.
they do lots of times though. the whole thing that made the nydus OP was spamming it and keeping the enemy moving so a few slip through the cracks. no longer possible.
Correct me if im wrong, game 1 dark vs maru did go lategame and dark lost that game most likely because he tried to headbut into a fortified terran position (wich would be a bad idea even with brood lord infestor. So this does indeed show that zerg can for some time compete without infestors and if it turns out zerg needs more help then they could adjust from there.
The goal is not to fix the matchup imediatly but rather try to ballance zerg away from infestors wich doesnt look too far fetch with their current state.
This is still possible, but it requires more attention from the zerg player instead of queing up 4+ nyduses and forgetting about them untill 1 pops.
Imagine if your opponent pays 50/50 4 times in a row within 2 secconds, and you have to constantly send units around to deal with it for 10s straight, if one goes trough you might have lost the game.
The current interaction with nydus when it comes to effort from attacker vs defender is just bad, and blizzard adresses this.
care to lend me a million? you won’t get it back though 
You are wrong. Dark lost because Marus bio was trading efficiently vs Darks high tech ultra comps
Maru was doing basic multipronged bio harass up until like 15 min on thunderbird ffs and still won because ultras are trash.
Zerg has no chance agains Terran without a strong infestor. In fact Zerg lategame is already disadvantaged against Terran lategame even with these powerful infestors
Ultras are trash especially against Terran