The adept is part of the larger issue. Basically protoss eco stays competent with zerg’s but protoss’ tech & production advance independently of their eco. Zerg’s eco stops where tech & production starts. Zerg can’t have both. If you make a roach, it’s a dead drone. That’s why Protoss with an economy on par with zerg is fundamentally imbalanced: if protoss are equal in economy, they are ahead because they have a tech advantage.
Looking at win-rate charts, the longer the game goes the more protoss wins, and this is true in all matchups. This is obviously a product of economic growth. The protoss just gets more and more ahead. The army strength he can afford with the economy he has goes up and up, and the Terran/Zerg win-rate goes down proportionally. The fundamental issue is chronoboost. The protoss economy is simply too strong.
Broadly speaking, yes. Playing the same and not being rewarded with similar MMR…
Negligible.
No. I don’t want anything (other than for people to realize the truth and move on from it). What would be for lack of a better word “fair” would be if, given that activity levels and longevity was higher among Terran players, would be if their avg MMR was also comparable.
Dude YOU brought it up. YOU did. It’s been your one metric in 3 years…
My position is and always has been, that all things being even, Terran players would have similar MMR to those of other races.
You’re not wrong, long term value would be a better indicator than short term. However, it’s impossible to know the long term for certain, and the best proxy we have for long term value is short term value. The theory behind it is that for all possible actions that could be taken from this point into the future, half will go up, half will go down, and how much they go up or down will be normally distributed.
If you base the actions around the biases of a singular individual, you set the future to either up or down. But if you take the average of many people, the idea is that they will reliably pick up slightly more than down. That’s the idea behind the company board. The board votes on what needs to happen & the ceo takes care of logistics to make it happen. The problem is that this assumes the board is filled with people who don’t share overlapping opinions. In reality, overlaying opinions cause the company to reliably tilt upwards or downwards, and that’s the exact outcome happening with the SC2 balance counsel. This isn’t shocking because they are, most likely, high school dropouts playing video games – aka not exactly the most well qualified group in existence. One of the common overlapping tropes in their logic is “omg omg serral won another one” aka they don’t understand 4th grade math. At the age of 10 I understood what an outlier was. It’s impossible to even define where an outlier is and the balance counsel thinks they can measure balance with it.
Another issue with the balance counsel is that there is no oversight. An investor can keep on eye on what the company is doing & decide to sell stocks or buy stocks based on what he sees. There is no reprisal for the balance counsel simply screwing over the player base. There is no mechanism in place to make sure that can’t happen. It doesn’t exist. It’s a shadow organization run by who knows and the members of are composed of, you guessed it, who knows. It’s closer to a Mafia than it is to a legitimate organization.
The only possible control mechanism is political. So basically you have to get ideas out there & hope it sways balance counsel opinions. But fat chance of that since they are chronically obsessed with nerfing Serral even though it’s obvious they’ve FUBAR’d the balance in GM and Masters. There is a song by tools that perfectly captures this scenario. Maynard wrote the song to convey how he comes terms with the realization of how sinful and intolerable he deems people to be. Tool is an incredible band, Maynard is a modern day mozart:
Yeah, pure luck IMO. I was on a subreddit and people were like “OMG I can’t believe ford lost 5 billion on EV’s!!!”. I knew that was going to happen when Elon Musk released Tesla patents for free. The only reason for Musk to do that was to bait Ford into making a bad investment into EVs. It’s literally the only advantage. I’ve seen other companies use similar strategies but the scenario is different. For example google open sourced their VP9 codec because they wanted to standardize video formats across the web. Because they operate a search engine, it makes sense for them to release a patent that will make data more available to their search engine. But when Musk releases EV patents for free, it’s like, come on, man, that’s obviously a trap. Ford swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Fun fact, they made a Starcraft joke when releasing the patents, saying “all our patents are belong to you” which is a play on “all our base belong to you”.
Point is, to make good trades long term is very hard to the point it tricks entire companies into losing billions of dollars.
I don’t know who thought EVs were a good idea. With the current material science and the ungodly amounts of Cobalt needed, it’s just a disaster waiting to happen (smaller disasters quite literally already catching fire all over China and here in Thailand from Chinese EVs).
Not to mention, it’s like people think the batteries just magically produce electricity out of thin air… Like, no. It comes from a power plant. Most likely coal. Side note, if people could stop being so terrified of Nuclear we’d be set for generations.
Nah I don’t trade. The entire idea of it is that other people get to decide the value of your property. Owning something that only has value if other people assign value to it is an idea I reject on its face. It’s absurd. I have family members who do, but I don’t.
Yeah, cobalt is just the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that electric cars are jam-packed with rare resources. It’s not just the cobalt, but the lithium, copper & aluminum. To meet the copper demands alone would require an increase in copper production that has historically never happened. I forget the exact number, but I think it was increasing the production 4x in 10 years, and humanity has never done that for any resource ever. That’s just copper. Not to mention that a lot of the EV hype was just marketing drama. People are realizing the cars actually are really bad. Limited range, long recharge times, fewer recharge stations. A diesel is better in every way. It’s simply a fact. Toyota was smart and didn’t fall into the EV trap. They split the baby with hybrids instead.
So basically EV’s tricked hippies into buying a bunch of useless rare minerals that otherwise had no value. It’s a brilliant marketing ploy that Musk pulled off. He’s seriously insanely smart. “I have a bunch of rocks, how do I trick people into buying them? I know, we will put them into a car and say we are saving the planet from CO2. After we’ve made our money, we will trick Ford into investing in a dying market for the lulz”. Brilliant.
That’s an excellent point as well. The electricity comes from who knows where. The whole electric grid is connected & power from New York can end up in a lightbulb in California. So we have a system where anyone can add energy to the grid by hooking up a generator to it, and we’re supposed to believe that all the people out there use only green energy to generate the power? Not a chance. I guarantee there are loads of people selling power to the power company via diesel generators running used cooking oil. It’s 100% guaranteed. There are guys who collect transmission fluid & burn it in diesel generators.
So basically energy is lost inside the generator because generators only have 80% efficiency or so. Then it’s lost going across the power lines. After that you lose more power as heat to charge the battery. Then the battery loses some of it, again, as heat as it discharges. It’s so inefficient it’s unbelievable. People actually believe it reduces CO2 output compared to an engine powering your wheels directly.
I said Cobalt because it’s the single most rare element necessary in the system, plus the sourcing is highly unethical (all comes from DR Congo and it’s a huge humanitarian ethical dilemma).
Ah, fellow Zeihan enjoyer I see. Lithium is 4x. Cobalt is 18x. Humanity has never even done 2x of any resource in 10 years.
But Things arent even right now (Players choosing race Not randomly and with a Clear bias) and the 3 races are very different.
I would assume that based on usual Real Life Logic that can be observed in all Kinds of Things terran has less mmr in the Sense that they have the biggest Population with the Most amount of beginners(this can be Seen by terran distribution. Tho they lead every League they are massively overrepresented in Bronze to gold dragging the mmr down). For protoss and zerg the distribution is much much much more equal in General wheras its very Low Level heavy for terran. I would expect that for the Most familiar Race. They are Most familiar in Terms of Them being human and also in Terms of Playstyle. They are the adverted Race. The “Main” Race of the StarCraft saga.
Btw in a controlled environment i would expect terran to have the Most mmr. By that i mean If we say we took random 10 000 People each Race and dont let Them Switch. But without any external influence. No Guides, No internet, nothing. For example i dont think zerg is particularly hard to Play If you are familiar with the Game and Meta but If you Play zerg Like any other RTS faction you gonna have a hard time. Its definetly the hardest to grasp for beginners. This Matches my Real Life experience when asking or observing noobs. And also Matches the Race distribution that No one Likes to Play zerg as a beginner.
There are more Terran players. Each Terran player plays as much as each player of other races for a given rank of play. Therefore there are more Terran games.
There are more Terran players and race selection is not unbiased. Bad players are more likely to pick Terran, so the population is bottom weighted, therefore they have a lower mean average MMR.
Those… bits of context really matter.
I don’t know, at all, what your point is here. The table you’ve given has contradictory information and it’s not clear if that’s intentional because you left out the argumentation. Is ‘total games/day’ a separate recorded result whereas the faction/games breakdown is an estimation?
If that is the point, then what does that mean? Because as an analogy it fails as - if I remember the data correctly, which I might not - there are more Terrans but they individually play roughly the same amount as other players.
But they are/do! Let’s look at this with what your example used - that is, on average, Bronze to Diamond, a player plays one game per day per rank, progressing from 1/day in Bronze to 5/day in Diamond.
1500 players, divided as 500 Bronze, 400 Silver, 300 Gold, 200 Platinum, and 100 Diamond players play an average of 3,500 games a day.
But 440 Bronze, 366 Silver, 279 Gold, 189 Platinum, and 96 Diamond players would play 3,245 games while being 1,370 players. 91.3% the size, plays 92.7% the games.
We could fiddle with that to do a lot, but the point to observe is that Bronze has such a low impact on games played overall - even if we bumped the first group to have 10% more players, they’d have 3850 games from 1650 players - thus the second group plays 84.3% the games with 83% the players. That’s more in line with what I remember the population difference being but it doesn’t matter.
For simplicity, let’s arbitrarily say that ranks start at 1000 and each rank is 600 average mmr. That scales us from 1000 in Bronze to 3400 in Diamond. When we run an average over those populations; note:
Because there’s so few of them, the Diamond’s contribution to rank is overall small. But their relative contributions to games is still huge because the formulas are (X) versus (600X + 400).
The population difference is also… higher than this. The other side; mostly by virtue of not being bottom weighted; shows better numbers -
And that’s why Terran has a lower average MMR. You get the same rank per skill! You just have a higher percentage of bad players. Therefore their low rank pulls down the mean average, because there aren’t as many more good players as there are bad ones.
They play just as much as everyone else. As I believe is fairly self-evident, players who are very good play more and/or players who play more become very good. If a player of a rank plays the same amount as another player of the same rank, that’s… a good thing. The system is working when that’s the case?
By actual definition, this means things aren’t even.
So no, nobody thinks that, and you continually saying it is simply ridiculous and leaves me at such a loss for words.
I can’t continue to associate with liars & cheaters. It bothers me on a very fundamental level that protoss players are fine with cheating & will lie to themselves that they actually deserve the advantages they get in grandmaster. I used to believe that generally people were good. SC2 balance has made be realize that most people are chaotic evil. What few rules exist only to exploit other people, and this is so true they are even willing to do it in a video game. They gaslight themselves into believing they are the good guys. It’s legit disturbing. It’s Kafkian horror story but it’s real life.
Anxiety is one of the world’s greatest tools for peace because it keeps bad people from acting out their fantasies. That’s one of the reasons why antidepressants can make some people more aggressive – it removes their anxiety, and that allows them to do the things they were scared of doing before. Video games work in a similar fashion, in my estimation, allowing people to live out their fantasies without restriction from their anxiety. We see that some people have the fantasy to use the system to cheat & dominate their competition while gaslighting anyone who says “Hey, this is kinda messed up, guys”. It’s disturbing to come to that realization. It truly is.
And so you and your cohort have repeated, without evidence. It’s literally the exact same thing as saying “the MMR disparity is due to Terran players just being bad.”
It’s not - it’s extremely different. That you continue to somehow confuse it in your mind is, quite frankly, mind-boggling.
You are literally the only person who has said that “Terrans are just bad”. Nobody else. In fact, you’ve said it so many times, I genuinely think you want that to be the case.
Anytime they can fill in the blank, they will give protoss the benefit of the doubt. I was watching GSL and Soo came within millimeters of beating Maru in one of the games. The casters were constantly crying about how bad soo played & how “shaky” his early game was etc. You know, railing every mistake & using lots of negative language. The reality is that had he gotten a kill on 1 planetary he would’ve taken one game off Maru. I happen to think ZvT is slightly zerg favored at the moment and that series is actually a good example of it. Anyway, back to the point, it’s a terran favored map and he did really well. Meanwhile, A toss will f2 his oracles to their death for free, winning the game none the less, and it’s “OMG this player is amazing”. When casting protoss, they do softball with an under-handed pitch and when casting Terran or Zerg it’s hard-ball at 104 mph.
If you’ve ever seen the same coach doing practice with both a softball team and a hardball team, you can see the same preferential treatment. The girls are given lots of positive language. When mistakes are made, it’s “That was an excellent try.” All the pitches are underhand. Then when they coach the boys team, it’s “Timmy, you big idiot. We talked about this, kid. You gotta keep your eye on the ball for pete’s flipping sake!” and Timmy laughs it off.
I think there is a strong argument to be made that the language used by casters does change when casting Protoss & that this is reflective of the fact they know, consciously or subconsciously, the Protoss are playing poorly. When analyzing how well a player is playing, if your position can only makes sense by giving every benefit of the doubt to the protoss, it’s a bad position. You should be giving roughly equal consideration to both players. It’s just that top protoss couldn’t survive that kind of criticism because they make more mistakes. The casters have to hype the players, and it’s hard to hype someone playing poorly unless you just simply gloss over the mistakes.
I looked it up for when Hero lost his oracles for free vs Reynor and the language used was “That first oracle is taken out and does go a little too far forward into the queens BUT you see the power of this protoss army pushing forward – not a bad engagement here for Hero.” That’s an underhanded pitch if I’ve ever heard one. It’s like, come on, man, if you throw away 2 oracles for free that’s a pretty bad engagement.
Lmao. Anyway, this is the kind of bias that has to be overcome if you want to have a rational, fact-based discussion on balance, and frankly I don’t have that kind of stamina. It reminds me of talking with religious people on subjects that overlap between religion and science. It’s flipping impossible. There was a time when I would hold someone’s hand walk them through why they are wrong, but these days I just block someone the moment they show that kind of bias. Frankly I am just amazed by your stamina and patience. It really is amazing.
Incorrect? The evidence has been posted and multiple others’ personal anecdotes have been given, you just decided to entirely ignore them. Which is fine if you aren’t debating.
Sure. Bronze Terran players are bad. We agree on that. I think everyone agrees on that. I’m only saying the ladder has players’ ranks are mostly accurate. There are more bad Terrans than there are bad Zergs and Protoss, and there are fewer more good Terrans than there are good Zergs and Protoss.
Therefore the reason you see an MMR difference is because you’re taking the average of 500 bronze with 100 diamond vs 400 bronze with 90 diamond. There’s no world in which you should expect those averages to be equal -
Nope Not at all. One more time. I would expect that terran is the Most popular Race. I would also expect that Most beginners and casuals rather Pick terran.
And this is exactly what we See. Terrans in silver are Not more active than any other race. Their apm and spm are fitting their League. They belong there. There is nothing wrong with it.
“Things are never even” terran got a massive lead in Population but you dont Care at all what that means. You rather think about 0.5% Activity difference.
I answered it perfectly. If everything is equal in a controlled Experiment in expect terran to have the Most mmr. In real life i expect Them to have least amount of mmr.
