Terran have higher APM and EAPM non-macro APM on average… Where do you get this new stat?
I remember that. It was obvious hyperbole. it was MMR x Activity x seniority (and it was like 27% or something.
Literally every GM Zerg I know is complaining about PVZ right now. Even 2 of the GM Protosses are complaining (or rather, admitting) about how strong PVZ is right now. Zerg is not in a great spot, except the new Ultra. That thing is just ridiculous.
He knows. He’s a youtuber who plays terran at a mid gm level and balance whines about TvP. What’s amazing is that he is willing to not cry about protoss so that he can troll me and say zvp is a skill issue.
Where do you get this from ? I get it from sc2replaystats and terran are in the middle between zerg (Higher) and protoss (lower). Its Important to Note that you should Adress the different mechanics. For example spm and apm will Always be inflated for zerg due to their mechanics. They simply build much more Units and are forced to toggle between bases, generating Lots of apm and spm.
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Its Important to Note that the differences within the Same Race are pretty high when you Look from Bronze Up to GM.
You still havent answered in depth to mmr being Low because of terran having in General much more People who are flooding Low leagues because they belong there
Do you finally Accept that lower AVG mmr does Not mean the average terran is getting robbed? Or do you still think terran is the hardest Race on every Level of Play since forever?
I meant higher than Protoss. Zerg is always gonna have the highest APM.
And while we’re at it if the nearly time and a half representation of Protoss in GM doesn’t mean nothing, then it has to mean something. Can we at least agree, it means it’s easier in mid-Masters to GM level. Or are we going with “well it means something, but IDK what it could possibly mean. It’s just something that’s out there in the ether?”
So you concluded that zerg will Always have highest apm. Meaning you understand that there are differences between races so that the metrics arent 100% comparable to each other. Its Important to Note that protoss also have mechanics that hinder Them to have very high apm. Also actions arent worth equally. Holding down a Button or doing Something with rapidfire has nearly 0 meaning.
Why do you Switch topics? It should be about terran and your Point of View. It should be about the metrics. You Just Dodge every topic once it gets interesting and Switch to another topic.
But fine. It surely means Something but yeah its Not exactly Sure what it means. Because as Said before in 2018 protoss got more and more represented in GM while getting nerfed hard/zerg being completly Busted in 2019 they still lead the GM League. So the GM represention went from Low when protoss was strong to high when protoss was weak.
But what i admit is the book of protoss BS. Its much easier to pull of some all in cheese BS in a bo1 on ladder with protoss than it is with t or z. Ofc with every Race there are some Kinds of easy strats.
These are performance metrics, not outcome metrics. Performance metrics will always differ if mechanics differ. Outcome metrics should only differ if there’s a reason for it. Thus far, you don’t have a reason for it. All you have is a cluster.
It’s not a switch, it’s what we were talking about literally one post prior that I forgot to mention.
Okay. So the ladder is a BO1. What should that tell you?
Same goes for you. You have No Baseline to Draw the conclusions you Draw. You cannot expect the Same result for Same Input for Different races. The difference is i actually combine metrics with observations and Logic. You Just sit there and say: " i believe Things should be this way (without further explanation or Baseline) and this can be Seen because of average mmr"
And for the differences in AVG mmr the explanation is pretty easy. Terran has the biggest Population. Terran floods lower leagues. Combining These 2 observations leads to the AVG mmr for terran being Low is because of terran flooding lower leagues. Those People in lower leagues deserve to be there because their Activity and apm and spm are far below what its necessary to advance to Higher leagues. The difference of Said metrics is too high.
How convinient.
That you can cheese your way Up the ladder ?
That would be the default, though. Without any identifiable variable you wouldn’t expect that different factions perform differently.
What? No you don’t. The only thing you’ve done is made assumptions that concur with your initial conclusion that is Terran is no more difficult than P/Z.
It’s not like you weren’t there for me asking you about this.
And you can do so better with what faction?
But we have 3 vastly different races. You can Look at average Mineral cost of Units or average amount of Units that are build and can conclude that obviously the races are very different.
Based on that, thinking that Same Metric of spm and apm should lead to Same Outcome in different races would be false.
Its as Always: If you have inequal starting Points why would you expect equal Outcome ?
And Backed it Up by a Ton of metrics. Like Activity or bottom 50% and top 50% and analysing that the bottom 50% consists of Just more terrans. But they belong there based on metrics Like apm spm and Activity.
In the whole 2 years you did Not Bring Up any Argument.
Maybe. Is that the only possible explanation for a Race to be dominant despite getting nerfed ?
But im glad you agree that terran might only be Harder in Higher Levels of Play and Not Generally speaking. But its still a Long way to conclude Things Like toss is easier in high Masters/GM. Since you know … Why did the GM representation rise when a Race gets Harder to Play because it gets nerfed ? Doesnt make a whole Lot of Sense. Why wasnt zerg dominant in GM when They were factually Busted in early mid and lategame ?
Dude you are nowhere near 6k MMR, and you never been (except when leagues thresholds were higher). You are hard stuck 4.9 k FOR LIFE. It is your destiny, your plateau from which you’ll never bounce away. I am not GM player but as far as my knowledge goes protosses cannot compete above certain point (6.2k). That’s why they can’t win premier tournaments since 2022. So if you are so good, why do you cry Batzy so much ?
Tell us why do you hate protoss so much if they’re so easy to beat for you ?
https://i.imgur.com/a7EsIYV.jpeg
ABS has seen screenshots like this before. He is simply a pathological liar. On NA rank #40 is about 5400 mmr.
Reality check, kid, sc2 is something I do once or twice a week, I just mess around with it, and I am touching the stars despite not taking it seriously. Grandmaster is a sigma 3 outcome but most people achieve it while trying really hard. The game is so boring and easy for me that I deliberately add artificial constraints to my win conditions. For example, one of my accounts has been in GM for nearly a year with swarm host ultralisk in ZvZ and ZvT. That’s right. I am beating mass mutalisk players with swarmhost ultralisk. It’s impossible, and I am doing it. If I wanted to go pro, I could, that’s just reality. SC2 pro play isn’t as hard or prestigious as people make it out to be. It’s mostly midwit teenagers and young adults playing a video game. Those would be my competition. There is legit a 10 iq difference between a 30 year old and a 20 year old. The reason people like me don’t dominate esports is because we don’t care about. Video games are for kids. They are deliberately designed to be easy to entice kids to play them & spend money. That’s literally the entire business model. If a video game were truly hard, nobody would play it. Truly hard things are getting a PhD or starting a successful business. Being a professional SC2 player is a path for midwits. That’s just reality. It’s not an interesting career path for truly intelligent people. It would be highly boring for someone like me. You will perceive that as arrogant, it’s not, I am just being realistic.
If you want an example of this just look at Idra. He’s now a material scientist. Back when he was a pro player, he’d make very basic observations about game design and the other pro players would rail him. He pointed out overlord scouting was too unreliable for zerg. They buffed the overlord base movement speed & made the speed upgrade more accessible years after he retired. The difference in intelligence here is very clear. Something that was painfully obvious to him was so hard to understand for the rest of the pro players that they thought he was insane. He realized he was in the wrong place and surrounded by the wrong people. I will never make that mistake.
The reason I bring up idra as the example is that I’ve been saying the maps are too basic for years, they just barely caught up with me on that one, and I’ve been saying toss has a skill issue in the pro scene for years and they are just barely catching up to me on that one too (some people still deny it). I would be setting myself up for failure if I entered SC2. What happened to Idra would be almost exactly what would happen to me. It’s never going to happen. I have a software company & a robotics company that I own 100% of the IP to. You’d have to be insane to throw away a pair of aces like that to play a video game. You will never be able to goad me into going pro. It won’t happen. You can lie all you want about me. It will never work.
So?
Those weren’t my metrics, those were’ Batz’
That’s not a new metric, that’s a cluster of the previous metric. You were quick to point out that there’s such a thing as “cluster analysis,” so okay, analyze the cluster. That’s not what you did. What you did was “hey, there’s a cluster, that must mean that all those players are just bad.” What you did in effect, what split them by MMR, then wow yourself that they had similar MMRs. Like, come on, bro. You know that’s a beyond moronic “metric.” You’re smarter than that.
Because you didn’t JUST get nerfed. There were enormous sweeping buffs that you received that are still in effect today, not to mention changes in meta that take time to be fully realized. You shouldn’t mess with core units, but you got huge buffs to the Charge Zealot (a far easier to use unit than the Adept) that’s still in effect today.
Meanwhile, around the same time, Terran was nerfed into the absolute dirt (multiple attempts to delete the Raven, eventually what we see today, a slower, more vulnerable Observer, Nerf to the Ghost, nerf to the Liberator), several other nerfs to Zerg that took it from absolutely broken to what it is today.
Apm, spm of t is Not the Same value as zerg or protoss.
Then i dont know why you brought Up the different apm and spm for different races.
Nope Not at all. For example i compared it to the other metrics Like Activity. Meaning ofc this Cluster is because of Bad Players.
So you dont agree that those silver terrans belong in silver? Please provide any Argument or Proof
As Said earlier, they got weaker, Not Stronger. Charge damage was way better.
Like what? Dafuq? Xd
So how comes that in your tiny little funny theory zerg wasnt Dominant in GM ? After all they were so insanely broken in 2019. Think about it. You Had OP broods you Had infested terran that ignored Armor. You Had a completly Busted nydus and Overall way too Strong midgame for zerg especially vs protoss (this was also Said by even the whiniest of whiners lambo)
How comes that the GM represention did Not Go through the Roof ? Sure they won Like every tourny with many many zergs in ro4 because it was bonkers broken but why didnt they flood GM ?
And this is the fun Part you cannot explain. You can act Like protoss got Stronger and easier after 2017 which was obviously Not the Case. Protoss being easier and Stronger again was much later due to nerfs to other races and obviously in void Ray era. It was balanced but it was Hella lame (OK Proxy voids was busted). But again you cannot explain why zerg did Not got through the Roof.
After 3 years of speaking to you, you finally compared them to their leagues, but I’ve already addressed that in prior posts. Total activity is still unaccounted for, MMR per game is still lower
Again, might be a few hundred MMR higher, that’s all.
Debatable. But it’s about the meta shift. Charge Zealot = easier to control = more time to do other stuff = more GM. Pretty much shot up the instant Zealots replaced the meta from the old Adept styles. It never came back down.
Upgrade and Chrono buffs and meta shifted. Terran needed to go 1 Ebay => +1 attack/+ 1 Armor then get your second Ebay and Armoy in order to survive stuff in the early game.
Simple. Difficulty at different skill levels. Zerg late game was difficult to control but insanely OP. Plus, just because it’s OP in the late stage doesn’t mean it’s OP at all stages. Plus they were over-represented, they still had the lowest total population, though, so it looks less impressive.
No its Same. Because of Same Activity in Same leagues.
They achieve the Same.
Which?
Cool. Only a few hundred. Nothing much huh? But based on what?
Nope. Clear Nerf that wrecked 8 Gate chargelot all in. There is no Debate. Its even stated in Patch notes
Because adepts got nerfed ? It has nothing to do with zealots Change. Jesus.
Again. Every state was OP. Even lambo agreed. Harstems famous meltdown. Nydus was completly busted. Meaning its Not only lategame but you conviently left it Out because you have No explanation
Dude this is simple. Terran player play more or equal as much. Terran player have lower average MMR. More games. Less MMR. True or false?
False.
They Play as much and get as much value.
The difference of mmr on average is because of the distribution of terrans. But again they are as active as any other Race if you Account for the Race distribution.
This is very simple.
This screenshot doesn’t prove anything. There is no name displayed. You could take a screenshot from anyone’s stream and say it’s yours.
Whatever, even if you are indeed 5.4 k on NA server like you say you are (doubtful but okay) so on EU you’d be still no higher than 4.9-5k MMR. You know there is a huge gap in skill between EU and NA right ? Look at Juggernaut Jason. On NA he is 5.9k (top 5). On EU he is 5.5 k and rank 75. On EU with your 5k probably you wouldn’t be able to make it to GM at all (or barely).
Prove your 5.4 on your slammer account and i will shut up. Can’t do this ? Stop lying then.
UpAtree plays on both yet he peaked on EU at 5251, in NA he peaked at 5250. NA>EU. Europe only beats NA when you get to the top 16 and that’s largely thanks to Serral donating everyone MMR.
Based on the chat in the chat box this account is quite obviously from a dude who has a very particular haircut. I wonder who that could be. Lmao. Ez pz. You wouldn’t recognize him because you’ve never been Grandmaster but any Grandmaster would be immediately annoyed upon hearing that phrase.
Well here is your 100% irrefutable proof: https://i.imgur.com/FGDH4j7.png
Mind you 5500 is merely rank 67. In the previous screenshot it showed I was rank 40. Hmm. I wonder what mmr level that is.
Eat 
, abs. 