Premier tournaments winrate in LOTV expansion

But right now they do Play at the Same rate. Again: 35% of Players are terran and they make Up 35% of the Matches. There is Like 0 difference.

Which means you didnt prove anything. You Just imagined Something Out of thin Air.

I have shown you 1 time when terran was SLIGHTLY more active. Leading with 1 percent. In Like ANY other cases they were dead even. But you still say they Play slightly more. You realize Something is Not true for all eternity Just because you observed Something at ONE Point.

But i guess Not. Since you still reference a Short Interview of Showtime 6 years ago. It all makes Sense now.

You always strawman that argument. My position was never that Terran players play more or are better than other players. It’s that they aren’t worse (which is your position), though you won’t admit it), which is a totally different argument.

Look I can go back and forth with you about this all day long, but you and I both know I could pull Hero in here right now, have him tell you that Terran is the most difficult race, and you’d come away with a better understanding… of just how wrong Hero is and how Terran isn’t the hardest race.

The MMR disparity doesn’t matter. The ALMOST HALF OF GRANDMASTER statistic doesn’t matter. I mean what stat even does?

Ironic. Hahaha

20 chars

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You demonstrate Times and Times again that you have 0 clue about what we were talking about

Let me explain another time:

You are angry and want compensation because you say EVERY terran IS getting robbed because on average terran has the least amount of mmr.

I told you since the beginning its because of lower Level being massively flooded with terran.

I Backed it Up by Splitting top 50% and bottom 50%. There was pretty much No difference to the races which is pretty odd because If you think about a systematic Advantage you would See that there is still a Clear bias (in example height between men and women. Categorizing into 2 groups wouldnt let a systematic disadvantage dissapear Just Like that). Another Important Thing is that terrans in Higher leagues Just achieve as much as the other races.

I Backed it Up by showing you that Bronze silver and gold Play sooooo muuuuuuch less than the leagues above. And you guessed it the lower leagues are flooded with terrans. Terrans who dont Play enough to be placed in Higher leagues. They arent good enough.

These effects do still create an Illusion that the average terran is getting robbed. But this is a false Take. Its Not about the average terran. It is about lower leagues being flooded with terrans who arent Putting enough Work in. Who are Not experienced enough. You See, its Not a lab Experiment. The races are Not equally distributed meaning you cannot assume the Same starting Point for every Race since you know that there has to be a systematic difference.

In short: i am Not attributing a whole group with a Label called “worse on average” or “Not worse on average”. I analysed how the subgroups Perform and then Highlight the result. The result that is Crystal Clear since we First spoke about it 2 years ago: there are too many noob terrans who are Bad at the Game. This can be Seen by any Metric imaginable. They dont Put the Work in, they dont have the spm nor the apm. These are also metrics we can observe on sc2 replaystats

Please dont do it as Always. You Always Pick one sentence in Like 10 Paragraph and write a very small Note to it and act Like you have debunked the whole answer. Please consider that you have multiple multiple Points you Need to Adress. Like: No equal Race distribution, terrans flooding Low leagues because they Show worse Performance in metrics Like Activity, apm and spm compared to terrans/toss/zergs in Higher leagues, terrans performing as good as other races in top 50%, bottom 50% meanwhile a systematic difference would still be shown (for example height difference), saying “on average” is pretty meaningless If you dont categorize at all while Not having equal distribution/starting Point or arent in a controlled lab test

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That’s definitely debatable. They’re tankier sure. They have high DPS, but they’re slow and short range. Their strength mostly comes from the ability to TP and Yamato. However, Carriers also fill a very different roll from BCs as well, so I don’t really think it’s fair to compare them given the significant differences between them.

As for the reactor/techlab thing, I kinda disagree? It’s a pretty natural follow on from the add-on system they had in SC1/BW. It’s significantly better than having multiple different add-ons that you couldn’t swap between.

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Do not want compensation. Am not angry. Just a realist. Terran is the hardest race. No one’s pointing a gun at me forcing me to play them. Just accept it and move on.

Yes, yes, you split them up by MMR and they had similar MMR. Shocking.

Yes, all do. (By the way, you actually tried to argue about a year ago – actually it was Kelthar, but you agree and upvoted all his posts – that activity had nothing to league placement and made prove that GM players played more than Bronze.) But that additional activity has to go somewhere, if Terran players play equally or more on average, and the activity in proportionally distributed among the leagues, that would mean that in each league, Terran players would play slightly more to compensate.

This is hardly the only statistic I post, by the way, but it’s always the only one you respond to. The GM thing you just kind of… ignore? “Where’s the proof that GM has anything to do with balance?”

Again, what stat actually even does matter?

Its indeed shocking.

Why do you Always Go to the extreme ? You cannot say “its 100% correlation/causation” Nor can you say its “0% correlation/causation”

We never Said it doesnt have anything to do. We pointed Out its Not everything in Terms of progressing and also that Progress is Not linear.

Exactly. Where is the Proof ? I did give a counter Point…2 to be precise. In 2019 zerg was bonkers OP but didnt flood GM meanwhile protoss was very Strong/OP in 2017 but didnt flood GM…they were actually Last.

It depends on what you are trying to Express. But Expressing Something without a doubt is Something that IS very difficult.

You dont Post anything. You steal Data from my sources. Thats you summed Up. You misinterpret mostly anything i give you.

No. Just do maths man. There are Like 60 terrans in GM and alone in silver there are 100 Times more terrans. Meaning those 60 Guys dont have a huge statistical Impact on this much larger Low Level group and you still have the Problem of Activity Not being 100% causal with mmr. Also the Point you reference is true for other races too. A GM protoss plays a Lot more than a silver protoss. Meaning IT really doesnt Matter what the terran GM does because its true for every Race.

Its actually funny how you dont really Adress my Points at all. You say Something Like "hey you Said XYZ " 1 year ago (and also its completly false or Made Up) or “yeah you did XYZ and it showed ABC” meanwhile i followed it up with an explanation why its actually Something noteworthy. Which…you didnt Adress at all.

You have stated…0 counter Arguments. Wow. You Dodge. You distract. You mock the Arguments Made but dont Adress Them.

In short, you are wasting time.

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Dude could easily simply list what metric is relevant but instead posts a 1000 word essay trying to dodge the question. We all know why you dodge. All metrics show toss is imba except 1 and that’s why that 1 is the only one considered relevant.

Normally what you’d do is you’d convert results to a z score and combine them with stouffers method. This would integrate tournament final results with the rest of the statistics. Tournament finals wouldn’t budge the numbers unfortunately. The combined statistic would affirm protoss is overpowered.

If the balance council won’t budge, the only solution is to play older versions of the game…

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/s/lt6DUTk0OJ

I’m thinking the one before 4.0, the free to play patch.
Can set up custom games with friends.

Why do I want to play older patches? Well, changes are increasingly being made solely to benefit the pro scene. For alot of people, the fun is being taken away from the game. Us 70 APM clickers don’t belong :stuck_out_tongue:

David Kim had a much more aggressive vision of the game. Ever since he left in April 2017, alot of fun options have been taken out. We’re talking Pre-Lair drops, Infested Terran (which might be fine for casuals), Ravens getting interference matrix, shield batteries etc. It’s not for everyone.

That is an interesting mod. Speaking of older version of the game, one of the outcomes I hope sc2 will avoid is having the same fate as broodwar. Broodwar balance is a joke. Protoss dominates broodwar for the same reasons. Low supply cost units means fewer apms required to macro/micro/position. This makes the race easier to play but reduces the refinement capability & that caps the peak strength. Skill expression can’t push the boundaries as far. To compensate, they flat buff the whole race & that means toss is massively overpowered. Because it’s easy, it’s overpowered with an ape behind the keyboard. That’s exactly where SC2 is at, only worse.

The game became increasingly less strategic & more mechanical. Decisions matter less. Nothing will ever top how vicious 9 pools were in zvz, and zergs could reliably defend them on small maps with a hatch first opener. Nowadays, 90% of my opponents have never even seen a 14/14 or a 13/12, least of all a 7 roach rush. They’d have no clue how to defend a 10p or a 9p with gas or a 6 pool or an 8 pool. All of these are very different builds. 10p could get lings on top of a terran’s command center before his first marine was out.

One of the crazy builds that gave me wild success was the 12 pool. I started doing that way before anyone else. We’re talking years before it became standard. It got the lings out just barely fast enough to get a command center kill but had a much better eco than 10p. Same vs protoss. You could kill the pylon in the wall, after the adept moved out, and it was a free win. The 12 worker start change happened & everyone started doing it, so it was no longer my little secret for infinite free wins.

I was the one to come up with 14 hatch before overlord. I’ve been doing it for years, too. I have clips of high GM streamers losing to it. We’re talking Code S players. They’d be super confused because they’d never encountered it before. Nowadays probably half my opponents use that exact opener. They all copied it from me. It happened basically never until I started to stream. That’s the issue with streaming. You reveal all your secret builds. The only builds that people can’t copy are the ones that require technical plays. You’ll never see my mass hydra build being copied by other zergs, lmao, but I am grandmaster level with it. That one will never be copied because it’s just too hard to do. High gms have the skill but they don’t want to take the mmr hit required to do something so hard, low gms don’t have the skill. So nobody is ever going to copy it. Same for they nydus styles & 2 base ultra etc. I try not to stream my standard builds because I don’t want them copied, lol. They also don’t have good entertainment value because they just steamroll everyone. It’s just free wins for days.

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I’m sorry, what?

Just send enough that two Banelings in, or one Baneling and two Zerglings, if it’s that big of an issue.

The point was to remove the worst feeling, when you just lose but it takes 5 more minutes for the loss to actually happen, and from my understanding it would not be about professional players’ feelings on this moment (because, as stated repeatedly, it is clearly something that is answerable and therefore any professional player should be able to answer it because that’s why they’re on the stage)

Like, even professional Zergs have said they don’t mind this, because that was far from - as you argue - the ‘primary’ purpose of the Baneling. Against most army units, the difference between 35 (+2) and 35 (+4) is fairly minimal. Like, +1 attack against +0 or +1 Zealots, since that went from 4 hits to 5 hits.
After that we’re looking at some pretty messy situations, like +3 attack against +2 Marines, Hellions, or Mines; and +3 attack against +1 Hellbats?

At anything resembling a high level, yep. This is exactly what it is.

No good player playing to win can only survive with macro because efficacy of most units grows hugely as they are controlled.

No, I agree with you - that’s absolutely correct. Warp Gate is hugely powerful for what it means for the production cycles and how it creates a very unfair difference in what adding more production than you can support does for your game state.

What I meant is that to me specifically, user typing this post, juggling methods of producing units is very hard to do with precision. It’s easy to build “a lot of Zealots” (hold Z), but it’s not as easy to combine building something like four Sentries four Templar four Zealots with starting Disruptors or Colossi.

“Build twelve Zealots four chrono’d Carriers” is easier than “Build eight Marines four Marauders four Medivacs”. There’s just as many things to remember there for each.

I as an individual just find that, as the army has more types of units to replenish, that it’s easiest with Zerg, then Terran, then Protoss - Just larva except for Banelings, Lurkers, and Brood Lords is easy enough; having to remember to press tech lab units first for each production structure if you’re queuing up >1 unit and tabbing between three structures; and then finally having to switch your view window for both using chrono boost and for the warp-ins.

Of course, the overall macro I think Protoss is the easiest, then Terran, then Zerg; because injects are exceptionally difficult if you’re not using the trick, balancing the income vs the production is not easy, but Protoss building more Gateways has such a vanishingly small penalty.

A Bronze player is in Bronze because that is the level of skill they play at.

You have, in fact, repeatedly argued that Terran players play more; but more important is that you have argued that Terran players achieve less when playing, and one of the facts you’ve used to back that claim is that their average rating is lower.

Which it is expressly because they possess a larger number of bad players.

No, all three races are of approximately equal difficulties. If you want to claim otherwise, you need significant evidence that backs up such a claim.

If we have groups of people divided by their city, and the average income is less than livable income for only one city, that doesn’t mean that the other cities don’t have massive problems.

It may mean they just have more millionaires whose numbers inflate that average income. It may mean that all of the county’s citizens who have low earnings are all corralled to that one city.

If, when we divide each city’s populations into two halves by the median or mode value, we find that their averages are now the same, that affirms that all three cities have the same problem within the low income population’s living situation, even though only one city’s total average wage looked problematic.

Please do not make me unpack how that analogy is a one-to-one match with this.

Because you’re a macro player, you wouldn’t understand that a baneling 1-shotting a probe or not makes a big difference. It weakens alot of potential ideas. They didn’t carve 2 damage off for nothing.

And no, I’m not explaining it to you. You’ll have to figure it out for yourself lol.

The problem is that building one type of Add-On (whether a Reactor or a Tech Lab) locks you in to one type of production from each structure. Instead of 3 structures determining what kind of production you can use, you really have 6. The strength and production rate of Reactor units has to be balanced taking the reactors themselves into account, so even though you can produce reactor units from a Tech-Lab structure, their production rate is heavily nerfed and insufficient in that case.

Swapping add-ons around may be an option if you have spares or if different types of production structures are using different Add-Ons, but otherwise you need a lot more production capacity than normal if you want to be able to make composition changes.

That’s not to say that Reactors don’t have any advantages, but Terran compositions would be more flexible if Terran production was balanced without them.

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Yes, it does, but that is exactly the problem.

Banelings were way too efficient against Mineral lines when they could one-shot Probes and Drones. Their damage upgrades were explicitly nerfed because of this.

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It’s like soccer; if you can get a couple of banelings in, it’s a goal.
There’s no foolproof way to get the banelings in, so it’s fair. Toss has the tools required.

In short. Nothing means anything. GM means nothing. Whole ladder means nothing. What pros say means nothing. Oh, except Premiers. Those mean everything.

Nice. You provided exactly 0 arguments that adress my points. Like i said before. I write 10 paragraphs with detailed arguments for my own and counter arguments to your points while from your side just comes one little sentence with 0 substance.

GOOD JOB! :smiley:

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