Open Discussion - Prove Protoss is OP

[adad26-2594]

I am still also wauting for the answer sir

[CollegeWings-1825]

Why don’t you actually read through the first 40 comments then come back to me?

[Sentry-2358]

@Champ-12531

so if you’re talking about the top of platinum then yes it’s top 25% of player base

Yeah but we werent talking about top Plat and also according to His mmr Trend and His winrate His mmr will continue to Fall.

[adad26-2594]

I did read throught first 40, then gave up, didnt find anything here, could you give me the example?

[Teodore-1778]

Ok, here’s an answer:

First you must decouple PROs and casual players. That’s the main Blizzard problem btw: They can’t understand that a normal person playing on diamond can’t do things that Serral can do. So, it’s all about the APM.

Why Toss are so OP? Because a wooden Toss player, can follow a build order which is like playing turn based Hearthstone , and find himself having 3 carriers. From then on, he has won.

Blizzard nerfed the Infestor not because it was OP, but because Serral was OP
And now, EVERYBODY goes skytoss, and no matter how you try to respond with something, you are pretty much dead while your opponent can pretty much A-move his golden armada everywhere.

Even if you manage to defeat a skytoss toss, does it worth it? I mean, working the hell out of your skill in order to defeat somebody who just did nothing, just waiting to max out so as to a-move? Nah…

[StrangeHero-11478]

@Sentry-2358

His mmr Trend and His winrate His mmr will continue to Fall.

Yeah since it had been a few months since i had played I was out of practice and play a bunch of Unranked games to get back into the swing of it. That “trend” will swing back in the other direction after a few practice games.

Still a full league over my highest Terran play with absolutely zero stress. Worlds of difference.

@Teodore-1778

First you must decouple PROs and casual players. That’s the main Blizzard problem btw: They can’t understand that a normal person playing on diamond can’t do things that Serral can do. So, it’s all about the APM.

QFT

And to be brutally blunt about it (to the folks who believe that this is some reasonable goal to work towards), casual players (ie all non-pros, hell, even some pros) will never be able to do the things that Serral can do.

[Champ-12531]

@StrangeHero-11478

@Teodore-1778

First you must decouple PROs and casual players. That’s the main Blizzard problem btw: They can’t understand that a normal person playing on diamond can’t do things that Serral can do. So, it’s all about the APM.

QFT

And to be brutally blunt about it (to the folks who believe that this is some reasonable goal to work towards), casual players (ie all non-pros, hell, even some pros) will never be able to do the things that Serral can do.

The problem is so much of ladder is decided by basic macro mistakes or bad decision making that it does not make sense to try to balance for them.

You can find major unforced macro mistakes even in master league games.

[CollegeWings-1825]

@adad26-2594

I did read throught first 40, then gave up, didnt find anything here, could you give me the example?

@CollegeWings-1825

@llllllllllll-12402

Like covering your ears and cowering in a corner from facts.

You provided no facts beyond Aligulac, and that was in another thread. I’ve heard you loud and clear and given you plenty of time to recover from the blows your sorry little ego took. It is 100% fact with evidence scattered across the forums that you are only trolling. Sorry, but this thread is not for you. I’m only calling on rational T/Z players to make claims. You’re done here.

@llllllllllll-12402

We added replay stats to the myriad of statistical evidence you ignore. Again, little girl, just tell us WHAT stats ARE acceptable.

Read above - I’ve already said it. As a side note, unlike you, I always respond to everything clearly. You people are the one with selective listening. If you aren’t interested in the full discussion, don’t make any claims you can’t back up.

@Player-174903

But thats so random. There is no logical reason to make that claim. You can’t just say every single stats pointing toward protoss being too strong is cherry picked or not valid.

It’s not random at all - quote from the website: “This page allows you to filter down stats based on a large portion of replays uploaded to SC2replaystats.” This is why I can’t accept this data. It’s clear that there is no random sampling from the population. People willingly put their replays into the website. And like I said for the second part, I can only make guesses as to why the numbers are the way they are.

For me personally, I don’t say every single stat is cherry picked or invalid. So far I’ve seen Aligulac and rankedftw - they seem to be reasonable, though rankedftw might be broken. If you have large scale tournament statistics, I will keep an eye out for those too.

@Player-174903

At some point, you need to accept something.

I accept there is a slight favoring in Protoss due to shield battery overcharge and void ray buffs (they need to scale back the speed one pre-upgrade IMO).

@Player-174903

You wont get a Harvard level of statistical analysis on balance about of video game.

We clearly have an MIT professor in our midst LOL

@Player-174903

The data source we have is limited.

Yes, that’s why I’ve said the things I say:

@CollegeWings-1825

The best and most objective way to obtain data would be through some form of API request or using a source that uses that kind of method. I think rankedftw and Aligulac do this.

It is FACT that BatZ pulled up a random html file screenshot. If he knew any idea what he was talking about, he would have known that I already answered his question. I have an idea on how to collect the raw data (answered above), and I know how to analyze data. BatZ quote below:

@lllIlIlIlIl-1983

https://i.imgur.com/X85Hb3b.png

Do you see these? These are the match histories of the entire SC2 ladder indexed by player ident number. Do you even know how to get this kind of information, let alone analyze it (correctly)?

This is why I don’t believe he is an MIT professor. He lacks basic knowledge in computer science. He can’t back up his shortcomings in statistics. He has repeatedly shown he has no idea what math is beyond 1+1. He can only save face a tiny bit if he tells me how he got all those fake html files.

@Player-174903

Also, i have to disagree that master/gm games dont matter. Those players make up for the top 1% of the player base. If protoss is broken for everyone besides the 0.01% of the playerbase, then its fair to say protoss design/balance is unhealthy and bad for the game.

Balance objectively takes place at the top level. My only issue with picking GM ladder is that half the people you pick are in low M1, and there is a clear discrepancy in skill between someone at 5k MMR and 6k MMR. Game design is another issue - I’d like to only look at balance. I think BatZ has 5.8k MMR? I am around 4.8k. If I faced off BatZ in a game of PvZ bo7 and lost every single game, is it in my right to say the game is imbalanced and in favor of Zerg? You tell me.

@Player-174903

Now, for the pro scene i guess the balance is a bit more debatable but even there, it does seem like protoss has an edge. Althought nothing is proven from a statistical standpoint at that level (possibly because the data we have is so limited), protoss tends to have slightly better tournament results.

The part where you say Protoss tends to have a slightly better tournament result. THAT is what I am looking for. I want to see it - in the most objective way possible preferably. I have seen too many contradictions around the forums. That’s why I want to discern with my own eyes what is going on. Unfortunately, the only thing I know is that there is liquipedia results scattered around everywhere, and I don’t want to take too much time in my life searching for all that data (and possibly missing some more). I’m hoping there is a place where it’s more consolidated and I just happened to miss it.

@adad26-2594

He shouldnt be able to convince you even if it would be truth for sure, dont forget that flat earthers exist

I can assure you that I am nothing like a flat earther. On the other hand, he has proven to be on their level. I don’t take my information from YouTube videos and questionable google searches. He has proven multiple times in the past that he gets his information from YouTube just like a flat earther.

Just FYI this is about post 30 AND it is sandwiched between your responses. I can’t believe how many times I’ve proven the trolls here clearly have no idea how to read.

[llllllllllll-12402]

@CollegeWings-1825

Just FYI this is about post 30 AND it is sandwiched between your responses. I can’t believe how many times I’ve proven the trolls here clearly have no idea how to read.

You haven’t made any points. You just keep parroting that any and all evidence that Protoss is OP you don’t find valid for whatever obscure reason.

[Sentry-2358]

@StrangeHero-11478

Yeah since it had been a few months since i had played I was out of practice and play a bunch of Unranked games to get back into the swing of it. That “trend” will swing back in the other direction after a few practice games.

I wish you the best of luck and maybe you will sometime find the motivation to play sc2 for real and reach a somewhat good level.
I myself found it pretty relaxing to ladder my way up with terran compared to zerg

[adad26-2594]

Wtf mate, nice longs post but in no part have have you respected anyone elses scource, are you giving up or what?

Again, i want to see, where have ypu actually acknowledged that your opponemts scource is valid.

[StrangeHero-11478]

Im pretty happy making it a whole league in a half just switching to protoss.

[Sentry-2358]

At that level that prolly means a week of practise

[StrangeHero-11478]

several games to get the build down and timing right.

[CollegeWings-1825]

You’re trolling at this point. You’re done here too. As the saying goes, you can bring a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. If you’re not going to read what’s in front of you, that’s on you. I can’t make it anymore obvious than this. I literally quoted it and you’re still denying it.

[adad26-2594]

I read it whole again, you nowhere in the whole wall of text acknowledged opponents scource as valid, in fact in the wall you denied like 3.

So you are just being completly dishonest towards me now, great really fair way to debate.

I again challenge you to find me 1 point where you didnt deny opponents scourse.

[llllllllllll-12402]

Hey, guys, prove to me Climate Change exists:

CO2 + H2O → (H+) + (HCO3-)

“Doesn’t matter.”

Well, wow, you absolutely pwned my argument.

[CollegeWings-1825]

I’ll zoom in closer just in case you have an IQ greater than 0 since you’re so insistent on being this painfully brain damaged - I can’t phrase it any nicer than this.

@CollegeWings-1825

For me personally, I don’t say every single stat is cherry picked or invalid. So far I’ve seen Aligulac and rankedftw - they seem to be reasonable, though rankedftw might be broken. If you have large scale tournament statistics, I will keep an eye out for those too.

I can’t quote anything else to provide anymore supporting information within the very response I quoted twice now. Because apparently if I include anymore than that, your selective reading disability will kick in and miss it. If you want to learn more, take the chance to actually read the entire quote. Not even asking you to read through the entire thread. Just read the full response and it will lead you to your answers - if you know how to read (hint: you don’t).

[adad26-2594]

Oh nice, you actually cant read.
I didnt ask you for the scource you personally respect, i asked you where have you respected your opponents scource.

Problem is that even when someone took the scource you “respect” you simply denied it again and called yourself a winner.

[CollegeWings-1825]

No, this is what you asked:

@adad26-2594

You dont deny all statistics? I just read through first 40 comments and you denied all, could you show me which one have you accepted?

And before you twist your words anymore (I see your edits), I’m quoting your responses here:

@adad26-2594

Thank you for not answering, proved my point

@adad26-2594

I am still also wauting for the answer sir

@adad26-2594

I did read throught first 40, then gave up, didnt find anything here, could you give me the example?

@adad26-2594

Wtf mate, nice longs post but in no part have have you respected anyone elses scource, are you giving up or what?

Again, i want to see, where have ypu actually acknowledged that your opponemts scource is valid.

@adad26-2594

I read it whole again, you nowhere in the whole wall of text acknowledged opponents scource as valid, in fact in the wall you denied like 3.

So you are just being completly dishonest towards me now, great really fair way to debate.

I again challenge you to find me 1 point where you didnt deny opponents scourse.

@adad26-2594

Oh nice, you actually cant read.
I didnt ask you for the scource you personally respect, i asked you where have you respected your opponents scource.

Problem is that even when someone took the scource you “respect” you simply denied it again and called yourself a winner.

Here is the opponent:

@llllllllllll-12402

I ALREADY showed you ladder stats, aligulac data from the past 4 years, and the disproportionate tournament wins from (Minor, Major, AND Premier)…

Those stats meant nothing to you. Why don’t you tell us what stats WILL satisfy you, little girl?

The only thing this whiner showed me directly is Aligulac stats. He has not yet pulled up tournament data that can easily be tracked down (quote me if I actually missed it).

Unlike you all, I’ve given my reasons for rejecting certain data. Give me a reason then that my reasons are invalid. Bring some counter points to my counter points. That’s called a discussion. But you guys don’t do that - it’s always resorting to insults, because you know I’m right.

You’ve proven that:

1. You can’t read
2. You can’t spell properly
3. You’re twisting your words to try and prove a point that you never had in the first place