Designed to hit before spire play comes on line. I wasn’t being hyperbolic earlier, everything Protoss does in PvZ takes the threat of mutalisks into account. Even if you never build them, the mere possibility is still warping your opponents gameplay.
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That’s just not true. Mutalisks are not a major threat in ZvP at the moment. Stargate openings kinda deter mutalisks but Protoss players definitely aren’t taking every precaution against one of the worst units in the game.
How would you buff the Mutalisk without running the risk of making it OP in ZvZ or ZvP?
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I think Protoss and Terran can rush to Battle Cruiser and Carrier before Zerg gets a decent pack of mutalisk.
Also I think Stalker and Marine counts become more threatening to Mutalisk than Queens are threatening to BCs and Carriers.
You play against Zerg you are not worried about Mutalisk coming in the early game. Terran and Protoss have the option of Stargate and Starport openings, Zerg has to hide thier spire after the fact and hope it doesn’t get scouted.
Either the damage has to be increased or the cost has to come down, and I’d probably lean towards the damage increase. They’re weakest in ZvP right now so I don’t think that’s much of a concern. This would probably turn ZvZ into muta wars again but reverting the hydra or queen nerf could help.
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Let’s buff the mutalisk enough so that we have to buff other zerg units in response. I’m reasonable BTW XD
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Yeah basically you just don’t get enough value for the cost so either the value of each individual mutalisk needs to be increased or the cost needs to be reduced. They are actually synonymous terms because if you increase the value of an individual mutalisk you decrease the cost of going for mutalisks because you need fewer of them to have a functional flock thus it costs less. Buffing the individual unit would potentially create Mass mutulisk problems because you have buffed the peak potential of the mutalisk flock as well as made it cheaper to invest into. I think it would be smarter to reduce the cost per mutalisk as that makes it cheaper but doesn’t affect the peak strength of a mass muta flock.
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Really, buffing mutas directly is out of the question. ZvZ is hanging on a thread as it is. If you want to make them good in TvZ or PvZ, I think nerfing their counters would be a better approach, rather than buffing mutas themselves. Buffing mutas directly might lead to an arms race of zerg buffs to stop 2 base muta and general muta rushes form taking over in ZvZ. Or they could give spore crawlers more damage against biological yet again.
Give it 2 years of balance tuning and the spores will be spitting bubble gum to stuff like oracles or libs while bending over and hurling live banelings riding on ultralisks at the mutas.
Yes, I’d like to revert the unnecessary transfuse nerf.
Thors cannot 1 shot an entire mutalisk flock, they take several hits to kill a single mutalisk.
Those are the only way Protoss can counter mutalisk properly.
They are slow and immobile.
No one uses Carriers against Mutalisk.
That would completely kill Protoss and Phoenix’s against Mutalisk.
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Nerfing their counters might work in protoss vs Zerg as Phoenix are the primary counter and they counter them to an extreme, but it probably wouldn’t work in Terran vs Zerg. The reason for this is that it’s the terran race as a whole that beats mutas. Cyclones, ghosts, vikings have been buffed. Marines have always beaten mutas, not to mention thors, widow mines and turrets. The economy is a real problem too, since it’s very hard to fit them into a standard game without game losing trade offs and it’s usually that you delay your hive and this gives terrana huuuuuuge window where he has 3/3 bio vs your 2/2 ling bane and 2/0 mutas. Nerfing the counters doesn’t really work because there’s just too many counters and you’d have to pretty much neuter Terran in all other matchups in order to make it work. If you buff the Muta then it is equivalent to a multilateral nerf to all the counters and then in ZvZ you can give spores a monstrous +bio damage buff to compensate.
This is how it was in Heart of the Swarm as spores were so good that they could buy time for you to get investors out which then antiquated the mutas. Mutas were a map control and transitioning tool for ZvZ, except for when both players mutually agreed to mass mutas.
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I agree with a cost decrease.
Making it cost 100/75 or 100/50 would be fair.
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There are other options in Terran vs Zerg because there are two primary problems which are A) how do you hold onto your Fourth Base and B) how do you survive the 3/3 bio timing. Surviving the bio timing could potentially be fixed by adding an upgrade to muto’s that substantially bolstered their strength and it should have a long research time but finish around the time that 3/3 will finish for the terran. I think this would need to be a durability buff so that they could swoop in and kill tanks which would make it easier for the Ling Bane to get on top of the bio. This doesn’t solve the problem of holding onto your fourth base.
WUT?
Let’s double the Storm-damage and as compensation double also the HP of all GW units, Robo and Stargate…
Makes sense.
Your irony was noted but people need more concrete examples to understand…
Marauders counter stalkers, but you don’t see protoss refusing to make stalkers because there’s marauders on the field.
Zerg can’t make mutas even if there 2 phoenix on the field.
There’s a problem.
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No, it’s not. We built stalkers to protect Colossi or intercept drops even if they die to marauders. The SC2 is a little more complicated than: A unit is hard-countered by B unit - ergo i won’t build A unit…
If that was the case you would never see Archons in PvT or Carriers/Tempests/Colossi in PvZ (duer to NP)…
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That’s not true at all, in fact you have many options to do so.
The cost could be decreased from 100/100 to 100/75 or 100/50
The HP could be increased from 120 to 130
Mutalisk could get a new upgrade. Such as the vs armored upgrade that would give it a bonus vs armored but remove the bounce. Or the upgrade that gives the mutalisk more bounces per attack. Both these upgrades are things players are already familiar with if they have played the HOTS campaign or any Zerg commander in co-op.
ZvZ is ling-bane wars into roach-ravager wars into lurker-viper wars. ZvZ needs some variety instead of the boring sausage fest we see all the time.
Nerfing counters would make Mutalisk OP or leave the game with many under-par units and attacks.
For example, Terrans used to use the Liberator in AA mode against Mutalisk. It was nerfed and the Thor’s AA splash mode was buffed as compensation. Flash forward and the Thors AA splash mode has been nerfed and the Liberator AA mode is now terrible.
The Liberators AA mode should get a slight damage buff now that the Thor’s AA splash mode has been nerfed.
Not true, it just depends on how you buff them.
How much HP would this upgrade provide?. +10? +15? +20?.
The difference here is that there are other units Protoss can make that do counter marauders, and Protoss needs them to shoot down Vikings and liberators.
Nothing in the Protoss arsenal can actually kill Mutas except for Phoenix, so the Phoenix HAS to be a hard counter.
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Many Grandmasters can and do use blinkstalkers just fine. They are a hard-counter to muta play, just not an extreme hard counter like phoenix are. Archons with cannons and shield batteries are a soft-counter.
Some time ago I think it would be a good idea lower the cost of the spire
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