Mutas need help

Look. Do not respond to me. This is the last time I will interact with you, to tell you exactly that, that it is the last time I will interact with you. I have given you my reasons.

Just know that if I don’t answer you even once more it is simply that I will not subject myself to dealing with whatever crosses your mind. It has been proven enough to be pointless. I cannot block/ignore you with forum options so I will do so personally. I attempted to reason with you in the past and in other post have given you the reasons as to why I feel it was absolutely pointless.

To show you that your points lack logic in a variety of different points, I will adress them one by one for the last time.

-Have you even thought for a second that getting attack upgrades on the spire does basically the same thing as these upgrades but are less niche and offer more general utility? Why the hell would you want your attacks doing more bounces when you can get +1 on your mutas for those attacks to actually do damage? The units which would die to more bounces like marines already also die better to +1, ignoring the fact that we are assuming here that the best targets for this upgrade (masses of small units) already either have enough dps density to destroy mutas before they cna deal real damage like marines, already cannot shoot up like zealots or lings, of counter the units enough while the mutas would still benefit from a +1 instead of more bounces like thors or phoenixes. And the armor upgrade its pretty much the same as the +1 unless it is extremely powerful, in which case it would only serve to try to bolster the combat power of a unit not meant for direct combat while delaying the critical mass of mutas needed to oneshot masses of workers. It would only be good in the niche situation of needing to snipe certain buildings or units, in hich case the +1 does a similar job while being useful in more scenarios.

Your ling-bane into roach-ravager into lurker-viper wars are in many times not the norm. Look at serral games. There are nydus plays present, there are mutalisks, there are many variations of those compositions with different upgrades and timings. Mutas are viable enough on ZvZ to be used in the highest levels of play (both sucessfully and unsuccessfully, but the fact players keep going for them is still an indication of them being considered viable). There are units that are not made in the matchup, but those units are definitely not mutas. Mutas are quite popular for zerg players, other units would require attention first if you for some reason wanted every unit to be used equally in every matchup

“Buffing mutas directly might lead to an arms race of zerg buffs to stop 2 base muta and general muta rushes form taking over in ZvZ.” Notice the MIGHT. You cannot say that the statement is not true because it itself aknowledges the possibility that it is not true thanks to the MIGHT. I can understand that I am in no posession of the absolute truth unlike you, who always uses direct statements that never aknowledge that possibility.

Not true. A lot of games are not. You might want to use words like “some games” because the one making factually wrong statements is you.

Want another example?

Another example:

MIGHT be fair is how somebody whose arrogance is not over the roof would post that. Because you do not know if it is fair or not ot he exact impact of nerfing counters. Using your own words: “Not true, nerfing the counters will not leave them underpowered, it depends on how you nerf them”

And back to my statement of the arms race, there are surely ways ways to deal with that possibility while directly buffing mutas. But it is not an easy task like past events like HotS showed. But hell, because you are in the perfect posession of truth you know better.

Anyway. I think I have given enough reasons here and in other threads. I apologize for the strong language, I edited it out, was having a slightly bad day. I will now proceed to ignore you.

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The mutalisk bounce goes 9-3-1. That means if a unit has 1 base armor or +1 armor or +1 shields, the 3rd bounce is useless.

The mutalisk bounce should be changed from 9-3-1 to either 9-3-3 or 9-6-3.

Also here are the mutalisk upgrades that I’m talking about:

https: //liquipedia. net/starcraft2/Mutalisk_(Heart_of_the_Swarm_Campaign)

The vs armored upgrade and more bounces upgrade would certainly be useful depending on which one is added.

You see nydus play occasionally and when you do it’s usually with roaches or putting a bunch of lurkers near the main base ramp so you can kill all the main base tech with the rest of the units.

Mutalisk play is rarely seen in ZvZ these days, it seems many Zergs have forgot the skills to use them effectively since using roach-ravager is easier to do.

Anything that can shoot at air would be considered a “counter” to mutalisk, which means breaking dozens of things in hopes people would use mutalisk more.

It’s ok, in current year men can have a “time of the month” too.

I’m pretty sure that in bw the attack upgrades give +1 to the damage of all the bounces. I don’t know why they changed that in sc2

In SC2 it works the same I would assume.

Honestly mutas aren’t fun to play against as terran. I would dislike it if mutas got a buff.

liquipedia. net/starcraft2/Mutalisk_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
“Damage:9 (+1.000) (1st bounce)
3 (+0.333) (2nd bounce)
1 (+0.111) (3rd bounce)”

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That is very surprising and strange. The only reason why I can guess why the rest of the bounce doesn’t get a full +1 is because the damage is getting split 9 to 3 to 1. In that case they should buff the mutalisk bounce so that all parts of it gets +1 attack per upgrade.

I need to check this out in the map editor sometime since my curiosity is peaked.

The Liberator AA splash mode could get damage buff from 5 to 6 or even a range buff from 5 to 6 to help with that.

Also Terran has so many ways to kill mutalisk, but only a few really work well.

Cyclones, tanks, thors, widow mines etc aren’t fun to play against either.

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no i dont mean the unit is op i mean i dislike the way mutas are used. it feels very annoying when im moving across the map and my opponent decides to a move 15 mutas into my mineral line despite being 20 behind in supply, you know whats even worse than mutas? dark templar, i hate dark templar.

Waw! We have 12 ways of killing Mutas but only 5 of them are awesome…
Please give us some more air-power just in case the Zerg is foolish-enough to build the Mutalisks…

i think it would be cool if they remade the unit, maybe giving it some kind of support role, or making it counter some Terran units better.

Most of the counters to mutalisk rely on the mutalisk player screwing up.

And that is how it should be. I ridicule terrans for not bothering to think about base defenses, but this applies equally for all 3 races.
If you go yolo with 100% at the enemy base and leave your bases unprotected it is not only fair, but a poetic justice to feel the warm embraces of 16 Mutas, Warp-Prisms and Medevacs full of Marine, Mines…
A protoss if minerals allows must put the minimum of Cannons and SB and possibly invested in Shield-Upgrades…
Guardian-Shield also helps a lot in minimising the Muta-damage…

its equal for all three races huh? no i dont think so, i think its slightly a problem for zerg but prottoss? prottoss has recall so you can just use select all army and recall a few units

Sure, let’s assume i use Recall (i won’t but for the sake of argument), it will take 4-5 sec for the army to materialise. What distance can the Mutas cover in 4-5 seconds? So, i got trapped with my arcons in Main/Natural (Arcons can’t pass the wall) and you would be free to obliterate my Third/Fourth that following your advice i had not fortified with Cannons/SB Templars.
Limit your theorycrafting to Zerg-alone, protosses have enough trouble even without stupid advises that can confuse Bronze/Silver players.

The spire build time has been brought up a lot by various people. 71 seconds is a very long build time. If a protoss scouts it starting they can build a stargate and get a phoenix out by the time mutalisks enter the base, maybe 2 if they have chronoboost. It something that needed to be 71 seconds back when everyone started at 6 workers, so maybe there’s space to bring it closer to parity with the other races air structure.

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Different races have different strong/weak points in producing units. The Spire takes long but once in place you can pump big numbers of units fast.
Stargates produce units one at the time and i won’t build 3 Stargates and mass Phoenixes “just in case” while my battle-plan is different.
Then, how i know that the Spire is just not a ruse to force me to behave precisely this way?

I’m not saying the Terran units I mentioned are OP either, but they’re super annoying to play against. Having a valuable harass unit usually is annoying for the opposing player and Zerg barely has any right now.

It actually relies on the other player actually scouting muta tech. You know… basic RTS fundamentals.