For army build, that’s pretty much what I do. For static defense build, you might want to take expansion before you make gate, forge, or gasses, but you could probably make early tech work well enough.
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Yeah, always take your expansion first (with your SoA energy mastery). Make your first pylon west of main between the 2 tracks, if you are going static defense.
The only time I go off one base first then expand is when I can see my ally’s build order is definitely going to be wrong.
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Even then, rushing 2 base can kill first train and first 3 attack waves. Just need to save the gas for 4-6 monoliths by first train (actually more affordable than you’d think)
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear. Going off one base is more for robo, never required for going static.
Expanding faster means mining more gas, means more robo units. Clean cut and simple.
I guess you’ll have to give either a replay or some details. At least in my experience, if your ally can’t cover the first train you’ll have to go one base.
Please explain how you get robo units out faster than everyone else given the following information:
- Time cost: Nexus (100), Gateway (65), Cybernetics Core (50), Robotics Facility (65), Immortal (55) - Total time without 0 delay = 335s = 5min35sec
- Wave 1 arrives at 4min, Train 1 arrives at 5min.
- Nexus, fast expansion, requires all of the energy from Mastery set 3 + approximately 2min of regeneration.
Key being, how is it you are able to pump out more than 2-3 (with chrono wave available at 5min) Immortals (cost, 325/130) if you are going for fast expansion? I wouldn’t mind learning this new build order?
Just to clarify, 3 immortals isn’t quite enough to kill the first train. Especially when they are only produced roughly when the 1st train gets in between expansion and main area. So the time left to kill that train is quite stringent going 2 base.
Update: I literally tested the 2 build orders out to get an exact number.
- Going 1 base, you’ll have 4 immortals out long before 1st train. Moreover, you’ll have 50+ energy to use Thermal Lance to help with killing the first train.
- Going 2 base, fast expansion (Nexus first). You’ll end up with 3 immortals but unfortunately not enough energy to cast Thermal Lance (as some is used to deal with 1st wave).
Difference being that the early Immortals allow you to deal with wave 1 and saving that energy.
I wasn’t able to get nexus first, but I was able to have nexus started before 4 minutes, which is decently fast I suppose.
15 pylon, 17 gate, 18 gas, 19 gas, 22 cyber, 23 pylon, 26 solar efficiency,
27 robo, stop probe production, and nuke rocks with orbitals. 27 nexus, kill wave with SoA, immortal,
31 pylon, immortal, Chrono wave with 330 mins and 200 gas (about 5:15),
35 Immortal,
39 warp gate, pylon, resume probe production.
41 energizer and gasses at expansion.
You may be able to skip the last pylon, using nexus for the supply.
This gives you 3 immortals, energizer, and about 70-100 energy to kill the first train.
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Exactly, as anyone who plays enough Karax would know.
The fast expansion is great but unfortunately delays mineral and tech timings too much.
Which, with some light orbital strike support for the escort, is enough to comfortably destroy the first train. The first train on brutal is only…2200hp? The only worry is the escort, who you simply need to bait into clumping up with the immortals so you can use orbital strikes to clean up.
I just don’t see it working 100% of the time. Remember, what I’m pointing out is that if your ally is essentially not there to do anything.
Does your strategy work? Yes, I would say about 90% of the time it works just fine. 3 Immortals + Energizer + SoA is enough to kill the 1st train. Yet, there are just those few times, like when you get SkyToss, SkyTerran, SkyZerg, even the class SkyRace.
Well, if that’s really such a concern you could make 1 cannon+1battery. You will already know the enemy comp when the first wave hits, which does give enough time to build a forge if it’s air. Once again, the cannon will cause the escort to clump up for orbital strike, only now you have a cannon to deal with stragglers.
Buddy, replay or build order.
I’m sure you think you are great at the game (even though it seems you have literally done 25 weekly mutations by end of March this year, makes me skeptics), but if you are not going to post something substantial than it’s nothing but boasting.
How is 1 cannon and 1 battery going to help against 3-4 Phoenix that lifts? You make it sound like everyone else plays Karax like an idiot, “oh, excuse me while I waste 3 strikes on a Scout, uheuh”.
The timing I’ve literally tested. And I am skeptical but not unwilling to learn. Kind of hard to learn from just “well you just need to group enemies”. Yeah sure, show me how you group the entire escort of 2 banshees and 4 Vikings with your 2 immortals without dying.
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I’ve been testing out Karax 2.0 quite frequently by attempting solos on various maps. From what I’ve seen, boosted monoliths are incredibly strong since the chrono boost practically negates monolith wind-up, to say nothing of the rapid-firing 100 damage laser.
There’s a very strange awkward moment in Karax’s defensive midgame if he uses structures first, since by that point he has to start investing into solar forge/unit upgrades at the same time that attack waves are intensifying. I’ll have to practice to figure that out but it’s very frequent in occurance.
I’m a huge fan of the improved carriers, they feel borderline unstoppable even in small numbers thanks to their stun letting you line up SoA shots, and when you mass them it’s simple to chain stuns together to stunlock Amon until he’s dead. And they should be! They’re one of the most expensive capital ships out there, so they should bring out significant muscle after spending hundreds of resources and 2 minutes each to get them out. Of note is that, without controlling the stun ability, these carriers are still sitting ducks and will die if you don’t pay attention.
The only changes I can suggest are just incidental convenience ones: weapon/armor upgrades on Forge apply to Karax structures, increased Orbital Strike radius when upgraded, reduced Solar Lance cooldown. Solar Lance is my biggest gripe about Karax because the current cooldown on it makes it feel incredibly inflexible. It’s great when it’s up, but it feels like you have to use it for something special.
Oh, and pretty please fix the immortal price bug (they should cost 325 minerals if 250 is the baseline) if you haven’t already! It would make my day.
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New carriers could be the only change for karax. It would cause karax my favourite commander. I Love your concept Maguro.
Little buff of the second mastery set is recommended too.
Yes I wrecked the point by taking the gas very late on my expansion, my fault for orbital striking directly on the nexus rocks instead of hitting both. I also floated a lot of minerals because I was intentionally avoiding gate units and cannons in order to cement the point of robo Karax fighting skyterran. Unfortunately, I also forgot to change from structure health mastery to unit health mastery, so my cannons pulled a lot more weight than they should have. Still, I think this more or less summarizes the point well enough.
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That’s what I said earlier that “it works against most”, but I appreciate that you took the time to do the play through.
Wave 1 of Vikings is arguably one of the easiest to deal with, not to imply any other you couldn’t deal with (based on what I saw). However, you would very likely use more energy as a result (ie. more than 3 strikes). 2nd point isn’t of your doing, but the average player’s computer doesn’t function nearly as smoothly as yours did in this video, this is unfortunate but must be considered especially when discussing in context with less experienced Karax players.
By Train 1, the tech is 2 with strength of 2. Many of the enemy comps can give players trouble. What we have been and still are discussing isn’t “what you can do” but “what is a more sure approach”. Expecting the average player to do that flawlessly is not reasonable. Can I? Sure. Can you? Seems like it. Can an average player who is asking this question? Not likely.
Yet, the original posted question was clearly not from a player with clear experience. So to callously say “always expand first, and if you can’t do it right, too bad”.
That said, even based on your video, I would find it difficult to deal with several of the aforementioned enemy comp by train 1 (Tech2, Strength2) escort. I am not sure if it’s by chance you got SkyTerran, but it isn’t the hardest composition on that map for Karax Robo. And I highlight that point because what we are discussing isn’t can you win against most compositions with your strategy - it is against all.
Anyway, I find the indepth discussion interesting, but overly scrutinizing on the perceived details would be meaningless at this point.
I suppose that may be, but the average player will have a teammate who at least shows, one way or another. The first train is late enough that no matter what commander they are, the only way to not have either a solid calldown or a hero unit to send to the train is if they are Swann (burning bots on first wave) or Karax, and you’ve already taken Karax.
Because of the “minimum power” set in co-op by topbar and hero units, even an ally who is barely helping will still be a significant asset against earlier waves because all they have to do is throw a calldown or a-move Kerrigan.
Ultimately, it comes down to a player who is not super confident with Karax will struggle to solo OE with him either way, regardless of what build or opener they go for. So realistically, I think it’s safe to assume that if a newer Karax player is asking for help, they will have a teamate to help with the early game, because even a REALLY bad ally can still do something.
They are learning, as such the frame needs to be clear (both from your reply’s understanding perspective, as well as their own capability’s viewpoint).
I don’t think someone should simply ignore that. The reason we provide these insight is to help someone to learn. Not just take an attitude of “just be like me, or [any pro scene player]”. The point is exactly that many can’t be like that. So given that they are not quite there yet, how can we provide something useful other than “learn to micro and macro”.
This is the entirety of why you see some newer Karax expand first (and not just Karax, many other commanders), then haven’t got a single Immortal out even by the 2nd Train, or some even have their first one come out by the 3rd train. Are they truly that bad? I don’t believe so. However, I do think if we don’t frame it right, lots of misinterpretations can happen (as it is often here on the forum lol).
On that topic, there is definitely a difference between:
- Someone provides a clear solid answer, then said person refuses to try, or change, or improve in any capacity but strong-heads their view/gameplay as their highest regard.
- Someone genuinely learning, perhaps skill/experience not quite there yet but knows perhaps there is a better (or different) way.
Few changes I uploaded yesterday to the Karax 2.0 mod:
Mirage
- Phasing armor duration increased: 2s → 3s (cooldown is 5s).
- Phasing armor reduces incoming damage to zero instead of making the unit invulnerable.
Combat Chrono Wave research
- Removed any resource cost, increased research time: 60s → 180s
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This is great. Smart 
, love it.