Say whatever you want but dark still morphed more mutas (underpowered LOL) than infestors (overpowered LOL) to win the last GSL. Deal with it.
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So Dark beat a player whoâs much worse than him? Good to know.
Are pro players just in the habit of using bad compositions for laughs now? I didnât get that memo.
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If you donât understand a thing let me explain (mostly ZvP):
The premise of the matchup is usually that zerg can drone up and build more bases faster than a protoss, so that protoss must do something to slow down the zerg. Either it is WP or oracle, because massing phoenix can be at danger of being overwhelmed by nydus/roach/queen counterattack early. Zerg respond by making mutas that invalidates these harass options.
After spending gas on a few oracles or WP/DT/archon they become useless as mutas show up, and in response you will have to build stalkers/phoenix/defenses, which equalize the cost of gas. All of these anti-air defense suck against lingbane. Also, the economy of the zerg will become relatively unharmed when the protoss is busy responding to the threat. If you use archon to protect your mineral line your offensive capability will effectively drop to zero allowing the zerg to roam freely.
If the protoss ignore the mutas and push, the mutas will kill some probes, fall back and suicide attack on the warp prism as you try to engage the main army. Once the protoss lost the prism they probably just lost the game because the push is unwinnable without a prism and the zerg now has more bases and more workers.
At the end of the day the protoss need to make the right amount of phoenix to counter the mutas threat without over committing, and since the economy damage caused by phoenix is much less threatening compared to oracles/DT/archon, and the phoenixes are not really that cheap, the zerg can pretty much maintain a economic lead without a danger of dying to an all-in.
Thatâs how we see some top zerg players still make a few mutas even though the protoss already have a stargate, gets nothing done when the phoenixes show up but still end up ahead, successfully delayed the protoss push because the protoss being forced to make these units. It was already enough damage without an actual engagement. And they still canât protect the WP for a push because if you have excess anti-air you will be overwhelmed by ground forces.
Well, the strategic reasoning of it is just on another level that is not apparent for most players to comprehend. So does muta suck? If you have the micro and have a plan and understand what exactly you want them to achieve, they are very powerful. If not, they do suck in a direct fight. They also wonât work in all games as the protoss may not harass with oracles or prism, in that case getting mutas can be a mistake as the protoss show up with blink stalkers.
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Since Toss in Plat/Dia/M started mimic GSL Toss Immortal based 2 base all-ins Toss become very much surprised when Zergs rush for Mutas. But now we see that Toss scouts before they move out. Mutas arenât that fast in the air even though David Kim liked to lie about them being the fastest air unit in the game - glad heâs gone and sabotaging another game. So back to not so fast Mutas, Toss scouting and seeing Mutas pop gives still enough time to spawn cannons, morph Archons, right click into the Zerg base. If one Prism isnât enough, well do what Toss and Terran try to teach Zergs all the time, build more!
But the whole âconversationâ here sounds like the Zergs shows up with 200 pop Mutas only⌠In which situation does that happen? Rushing on 2 bases to Muta, no speed lings means you can have 6-8 Mutas out, which will get spotted by hallucinated Phoenix, Toss spawns cannons, morphs Archons, right clicks into the Zerg base and wins games.
Toss have more than enough valuable counters to Mutas. The 2nd easiest is when scouting Mutas do not right click into the Zerg base. Stay in base, spawn cannons, summon a 3rd base and Turtle. Pretty much an tech counters Mutas, Templas, Archons, Phoenix, Carriers, even Tempest do. The only units which donât counter Mutas are Probes, Dissruptor, Sentry, and Voids. Even Zealots do so much damage to Zerg grounds and buildings, they canât be ignored and must be dealt with but not with gas units because otherwise Zergs canât get so much Mutas to freak Toss out in this thread.
Mutas in TvZ are played more often despite Thors, Widow Mines (0-APM), Turrets, and of course stimed Marines and still we see Mutas.
But in PvZ Mutas are suicide unless ⌠well ⌠brain dead.
The point I was making was that making muta, as many pro zerg do is a counterplay to the enemy harass tactic, you donât face as many oracles/dt warps in lower leagues therefore the mutas shouldnât be involved. They are the most effective if the protoss built 3 oracles or sneaked DTs in your base and have used the prism to retreat them for archons later. The mutas are excellent as counter-harass, extra points if you actually kill the oracles/prism as they come to harass your bases.
I donât know, my personal experience using mutas is that they are extremely fun to use but very niche and in many times too comittal. Iâd like some changes to be able to use them more because they are so fun.
And I said before, Iâd be willing to take nerfs somewhere else if that meant that mutas could be a good option in a bigger percentage of my games.
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Not true in the slightest. Oracleâs can tag the Mutas and archons in a warp prism are a hard counter - watch Stats vs Serral, asus ROG.
I love posts like this. Youâre just exposing why you lose to mutas: you fall behind. If you were on even footing vs a player going ling spine muta and you attacked them as soon as the mutas finished there should be no way you lose. I canât possibly imagine a scenario where a zerg and a toss have equal income and the zerg spends all their gas on mutas and somehow beats an equal protoss army. Maybe if you were like allergic to anti air or just massed stalkers or something you might be able to lose. But what actually happened is you fell behind earlier in the game and then your opponent chose mutas as the finisher. You probably arenât even aware of how behind you were, which is why you think mutas are what killed you.
edit: no wait actually there is one possible way, if the first time you see the mutas is when theyâre in your mineral line and you fumble around between your bases for 5 minutes before realizing you need to counter attack. This is usually what happened when people say âeven when you counter attack zerg just surrounds youâ or bull like that.
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Mutas are fine. They do the job they are supposed to. Wait until daddy dark or serral uses them in gsl next year and the world will start using them again.
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People have been saying this since 2016 and it still hasnât happened xD
I think mutas were only part of the LOTV meta for like a week during that maru 2-1-1 plus tanks meta right before AAM took over the meta.
People will continue to deny this because they donât like playing against mutas but mutas are weak and have been for all of LOTV. The pace of the game is drastically different and everyone has tech available much earlier, plus the larvae nerf. Zerg has less time to get an economic lead in the early game and not enough time to get mutas out in effective numbers with ling bane support in the midgame - which is why you see so many zergs mass spine crawlers because the window is so short and hard to survive. Mutas take too long to get out and arenât worth their cost so when you rush to them and invest all your gas in them you lose 9/10 engagements.
Did you actually read what was the context? The oracles/DTs mission is to kill workers - once they canât do this the zerg infestation is set loose and can spiral out of control.
Using oracle tag on the mutas will mean no worker loss - mission completed, no engagement. Zergâs lead remain.
Prism archon is useful counter to mutas only on defense, on offense you try to kill workers, so you come in, the workers are pulled, roach/lings and queens show up and now you have to retreat to ground inaccessible terrain, but the mutas cut into the retreat route and when the archons canât be unloaded, or you foresee losing the prism leaving the archons to die in the skirmish. In proper play the harass options are shut down if you have no phoenix no doubt about it. To be successful you are counting on the zerg to make a mistake to engage the archons with only mutas, because losing the mutas will suffer from the following harass that result in great mining time loss or worker loss, that the protoss will lead.
In fact your comment is so extremely invalid because all 3 games serral lost he didnât make any mutas and he died twice to oracle harass.
Which is to not exist in a practical game - just the way the TCF and PPP want it to be.
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You can make them vs Terran. Not a soul is stopping you. Nobody will even give mutas a chance, instead every Zerg under the sun would rather build a hydralisk since they got buffed. You can magic box Thors, mines have always been there. But Zergs wont because why make mutas and micro harder when they can just make hydras. Why play harder when you can play smarter with hydras.
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No, just marines, battlecruisers, vikings, cyclones, ghosts - even a single turret can beat a 1000 gas investment into mutas (if you repair on time)!
1000 gas is the equivalent of about 2 bcs. Imagine the outrage if zergs could deflect a BC rush with 1 spore crawler. Thatâs what turrets + repair do to mutas. People donât go for mutas because they are the definition of trash.
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They arent trash. Perhaps it is the user itself who is trash?
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Yeah, call all of the zerg player base âtrashâ - including players like Serral, Dark and Rogue - good plan!
It does not matter how good you are with mutas when a 1000 gas investment canât even beat a single turret.
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I see them use mutas from time to time, especially Dark. He knows how to them, look to your dad to show you your new monthly viable strategy.
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Do you know who Byul was?
A zerg quitter as far as Iâm concerned. Hes done.