They need to experiment with getting rid of the moving while shooting thing on the Phoenix and just integrate the range upgrade or something. Against Terran I dont really know, because thors are back to their nerfed state against mutas and in hots mutas were very strong regardless of thors. I really think vs Terran it’s going to be one of those things where Lambo or another zergs brings them back and shows the world the new build order and how to micro them. If anything, I use to see mutas until the hydra was buffed, and the hydra was buffed so much you were almost dumb to not actually make them as a core unit. I think hydras just being strong in general along with the larvae nerf is what really did them in.
the widowmine got introduced along side muta regen at the beginning of hots while Phoenix got 1 base range thor splash radius got buffed to negeate magic box and spores got +30 vs bio during hots to balance it out in zvz
The reason of mutas being in a bad spot is:
now a days you get the counters faster due to high economy from the start tech switches are much faster
to get viable mutas its needed to remove the regen so you can make stronger switch maybe with less cost per muta(75min+50-75gas) because you need to deal dmg fast a not over a longer period of time since the counters are extremly strong
For the Terran, sure. I wouldn’t call remembering to proc the widowmine shots before amoving your banes particularly “Micro Intensive” but I guess it did take more skill than afk rallying Swarm Hosts in the other two matchups so ok.
You can also split vs mines if you have to fight on them and you know they are there. There is lots of micro potential in LBM, Bio vs LBM was arguably what made TvZ so fun to watch.
You are the one claiming that “people” = “zerg”. The lesson to be learned here is that just because you feel that way doesn’t mean all or even most feel that way. I would think that’s obvious but here you are claiming anyone who disagrees with you must be a zerg player.
whoever says mutas aren’t weak have absolutely no idea how to play this game and/or is trolling and deserves a ban
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Nobody on this forum deserves a ban more than you. The entire front page is spammed with your ridiculous posts.
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Funny that you are discribing best case scenario and don’t even see the damage done to the Protoss in your own story… You said yourself, the huge loss mining time and map control you gain until you get a shield batery and a cannon in every mineral line, and it’s not even 10 secconds, thats damage done and it don’t ever prevent mutas from coming back and snipe some probes.
That is IF they get scouted because by no means it’s easy to scout it even in pro players games.
Mutas are dangerous, they can end games, you want it to not be countered? Do you also want nukes for zerg?
I quite literally did not describe the best-case scenario. I in fact described how the protoss still wins despite losing his entire economy which is pretty much the worst case scenario. You need to re-read my post if that is the conclusion you came to. In order for the protoss to lose to mutas he has to screw up the scouting, have no stargate, have no reaction time, no shield batteries, no cannons, no open gateways, no archons, no phoenix, no stalkers.
This begs the question: What was the protoss doing all game long?
I think you should read what you wrote yourself, you said that the damage done is not guaranteed and described a situation where you guess the damage was zero where clearly the damage was taken and it was not a light one.
You should get into the Protoss’s shows before say anything is easy to counter.
Also, shield bateries and cannons does not null mutas.
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I did, and I can say with 100% certainty that what you claimed (“you are describing best case scenario”) is not only entirely false but wildly detached from reality. It is not even imaginable that it could be true.
It does, sweetie pie, because it saves your probes from dying while you use 0.1 apm to recall and push the mutas away which can be done so fast, with good reaction time, that the zerg might kill 1 probe. Or you could just warp in some stalkers, or pre-position your army in the case of mutas.
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What is this, Batz refusing to own up to his words? Perish the thought.
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Lying only hurts your reputation, Mr “PhD” K.
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Lying? Your posts are right here, in this thread, for everybody to see. Did you forget that we can see more than just the latest posts again?
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Yes, which is quite the wonder why you think you could get away with lying. You honestly have no shame it would seem.
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Going “no you!” doesn’t work as a counter outside of Kindergarten Batz. You should probably try and understand that before you go into the adult world.
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Yeah, you want to play with words, a situation with zero damage is best case scenario and you fail to describe one, but if you don’t like my definition call it what you want.
But hey, now you are demanding for the Protoss to recall every time they get harassed by mutas, will the response be even more demanding?
You accused me of talking about a best case scenario when in fact I was talking about a scenario where the protoss lost all his economy. This isn’t “playing with words”, this is you not reading a post in the slightest before being triggered and raging. It is in fact impossible to have a conversation about a topic if you do not bother to read what the other person is posting which is why it is so important to correct you here and get you to admit that you understand the correction so that the conversation can indeed move forward. This is not “playing with words”, this is “how to have a conversation - a beginners guide”.
I in fact did not talk about best-case scenarios for the protoss - not scouting and having your army comp wrong, no cannons, shield batteries, no open gateways, etc, and losing your entire economy is about as close to a worst-case scenario as you can get. Even in that scenario, the situation is STILL salvageable due to the incredibly high cost of mutas resulting in a gimped ground army for the zerg. If you were so far out of position for mutas, it means you are in a prime position to 1a into the zerg and that’s an auto-win given the -48 roaches spent to get out those 10 mutas. You will do AT LEAST as much damage as the mutas and probably a lot more due to how good immortals are at plowing through buildings.
The mutas in that scenario MUST come home to defend, which means you now have time to get out a couple shield batteries and archons and that is your win condition even though you screwed up tremendously by being out of position, having the wrong army comp, having all your gateways blocked, etc. You both lose your economies, but the zerg losses his whole army and several bases, while you forced the mutas home only to then recall and save your army.
You realy want to have this conversation, don’t you? Fine, I’ll lose my time:
I’ll quote what you said and lets both interpret this thing and see why we are desagreeing:
You are describing a situation where unscouted mutas will not do damage, since your said yourself that the damage is not guaranteed. In my interpretation of things the follow up situation that you are about to describe is an example of a response where you think the Protoss will not take damage. And I call a situation with no damage taken (or even with least damage taken) to a best case scenario.
And then you come with this:
You say this after spliting your first response into two arguments:
You were pretty clear that in this “second” argument you argue that the damage is not guaranteed, why suddenly you start to talk about a game ending damage where the Protoss is now forced to all-in to win, even contradics the battery/cannons in every mineral line part of your story. Kelthar is not the liar here, you are and you lie is evident in this quote.
Such a time wasted on a topic that isn’t even relevant.
Now back to the topic:
In whiny words 10 seconds = 30 seconds to build shield/cannon in every mineral line to be even not 100% safe, zerg can easely build up his army behind it and depending on the damage dealt you can even tech to gglords since you already have a spire. And if protoss wants to all in they are forced to morph archons since stalkers doesn’t prioritizes air and they can be taken out by mutas in a large fight.
Mutas are dangerous, but sure are counterable. This makes the game balanced.
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I am describing that no matter the situation mutas can be dealt with reactively. Even the worst possible scenarios you have a way in which you can navigate out of the mess by a few simple choices and which are predicated on only fast reactions and reasonably intelligent decision making. Compare that to Dts - there are MANY scenarios where the dts flat out kill a zerg and there is ZERO potential for reactive play. Mutas have virtually no scenarios where they flat out kill a protoss and in the vast majority of cases there is an enormous amount of reactive play that protoss can use.
Mutas are worthless because A) there is never going to be a situation where the protoss is surprised by mutas since protoss has such incredibly good scouting mechanics, and B) even with the protoss being surprised there are so many reactive options that the mutas still are worthless.
I am describing the worst imaginable scenario for a protoss that still results in the protoss having a way to win, as that defines the boundaries of when mutas are good. Unfortunately, the scenarios in which mutas can be good are such an incredibly narrow slice of the pie you are never going to see them used.