Kerrigan Thread #9023

Campaign Discussion
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Continued from here: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/heart-of-the-swarm-retrospective-and-inconsistencies/5132/31?u=gradius-1412

Just saying “characters can change” doesn’t automatically make it make sense. It’s been 4 years so maybe his anger has abated and he might take his promise to kill Kerrigan less seriously. Fine. It’s been 4 years and he went from honest cop with basic sense of right and wrong to condoning mass planetary slaugther? No.

Who the character was in previous installments should kinda matter when you discuss which possible directions he can go, unless you just consider the writing immune to all critique.

We know Raynor’s got a basic sense of right and wrong. We know he spent his time in SC1 saving civilians. He trusted Kerrigan’s statement that Arcturus would do something about the zerg on Tarsonis, and when that wasn’t the case, he full on rebelled. Warfield, Duke & others did not.

Ironically, even Kerrigan herself condemned using zerg against people. Then when Kerrigan killed even more people, Raynor promised to kill her. There’s multiple examples of him not letting mass killing stand.

Furthermore, Metzen’s statements clearly tell us what he thought of the character (which sure, was during WoL development, but also way after StarCraft 1 came out).

“I love the idea of Raynor as the one honest man in the universe and this kind of honest cowboy dude being swept up in these events, and to some degree his sense of justice, sense of right and wrong, just inanimately who he is, factoring into these larger events.”

youtu.be/PrZ7ETUvzb8

“Metzen introduces “the one honest man in the universe,” Jim Raynor”

gamespot.com/articles/tricia-helfer-starring-in-starcraft-ii/1100-6216009/

So it’s obvious who Raynor is supposed to be. When he saddles up with Kerrigan after her mass wholesale slaugther of Dominion planets, you’ve got a problem. Kerrigan has no excuse now. Her humanity and free will have been restored, yet she resumed the same exact activities that initially caused Raynor to condemn her.

There’s also the Liberty’s Crusade novelization:

“James Raynor was the most decent man I ever encounteredduring the fall of the Confederacy. Everyone else, I cansafely say, was either a victim or a villain, or quite oftenboth.”
~ Michael Liberty

I think Metzen knows a thing or two about Raynor a decade after he created the character. You can’t just declare Metzen’s statement non-canon.

Even in Wings of Liberty his position on something like this is clear:

Raynor
(bitter) Tarsonis… that’s where it all went down. Mengsk stole a psi-emitter from the Confederacy and planted it there. He knew that it’d attract the zerg and…

(sighs) Our revolution began that day - the day Mengsk murdered a whole planet and called it justice.

Hanson
My God. Billions of innocent people. That’s…that’s just…monstrous. No wonder you hate him so much.

Or this:

Raynor
I used to think Mengsk’d be a force for change. I fought alongside him right up until Tarsonis. That’s where he crossed the line by using zerg to murder the whole planet.

Don’t tell me that the Raynor who prioritizes justice didn’t make it into the game… His stance on mass murder clearly hasn’t changed.

“But he’s in love.”

They’ve probably spent even less time together (3 weeks) than they did when they were in the Sons of Korhal in SC1 (several months). Love wasn’t an excuse in SC1. Kerrigan reverted to her previous mass-murdery actions, ergo, any “love” goes out the window. Also, if anger fades over 4 years, then so does love. This seems to be a double standard.

“He wants to regain what he’s lost.”

Sure, but not by compromising his whole character. For him to do a complete 180 like that just to regain what he lost should have turned some heads. A realistic response would be to accept that Kerrigan was mentally damaged after her actions in HoTS. But if his emotions were blinding him then we should have seen repercussions for that or really just any evidence for that whatsoever.

Does anyone on the Raiders quit? Did anyone point out Raynor’s hypocrisy? None of this seems to be an issue whatsoever from either a Doylist or Watsonian perspective.

For reference, Matt was mad at him for risking all their lives just to get his girlfriend back. Kachinsky was mad because he signed up to fight the Dominion, not work for them.

Planetary mass murder though? That’s on a way higher level. Half or all of the crew should have revolted. That’s WHY they revolted from Mengsk in the first place. That’s the whole point and reason for the existence of Raynor’s Raiders.

Plenty of people from StarCraft 1 that weren’t in a position to hurt her that insulted her:

Zeratul
As if your word held any value…
Zeratul
You ask me to aid this vile creature?
Raynor
It may not be tomorrow, darlin’. It may not even happen
with an army at my back. But rest assured: I’m the man
who’s going to kill you some day
MENGSK:
Kerrigan, you murdering b1tch! We had a deal!

They could have at least talked about her behind the scenes like this:

Fenix

Now that the Psi Disrupter has been destroyed and Kerrigan has regained control of her minions, I fear that she will forget our pact and turn on us.

Jim Raynor

I know what you mean, Fenix. I’d love to believe that she’s on the level, but there’s a part of me that just knows better. However, I do believe that she’s serious about taking out the UED. The only real question left is what happens to us when she wins.

Arcturus Mengsk

If you ask me, she’s completely untrustworthy. But, so long as she’ll help me retake Korhal, I’ll work with her.

Would that have been so freaking hard? Nothing like this ever happens in HotS.

The formal/nice dialog that everyone has with her in SC2 post HoTS is just…weird. Did everyone just lose their backbone between games? Protoss aren’t known for their fast emotional processing and ability to change. Artanis at the very least should have sounded kinda pissed off instead of deferential & courteous the whole time. The way he knelt at the end at the epilogue was just disgraceful.

Now, sure, I don’t recommend Valerian or Horner piss her off, but it would have been cool to see at least some background dialog that people condemned working with her or Raynor’s infatuation with her. Instead, this again looks like an issue that never crossed the writers’ minds.

Look at some of this dialog:

  • Kerrigan : My swarm are broken here. Artanis… I’ll need time to rebuild my forces.

  • Artanis : There is no time. My people are being consumed, their very flesh burned into Amon’s own. I cannot wait.

Why is he acting like Kerrigan gives two craps about his people? She doesn’t. She used them in the last game as weapons experiments when she needed to upgrade her roaches.

Furthemore, her swarm is broken. She’s in no position to hurt Artanis here, so he doesn’t need to act like they’re best friends.

Artanis : We’re very different leaders, but I thank you, nonetheless. Until we meet again.

By that does he mean that he stops at mass genocide and Kerrigan doesn’t? At least some comment about hating to be forced to work with her after the screen turned off would be cool.

Artanis is not some sort of sugarcoater. When Alarak needs putting in his place, Artanis will do it, regardless of the fact that Alarak and the Tal’Darim can seriously help him or hinder him.

Artanis : She is… xel’naga.

His tone of voice bothers me here. It’s so reverent as if he’s completely ok with it.

The Hyperion destroys the Dominion base and Raynor’s Raiders start setting up their own base.

  • Kerrigan : Jim. Thank you.

  • Raynor : Thank me later. It’s time you put your war face on.

What about this is realistic? He was still mad at her like 4 missions ago, and now he’s treating her the same way he always does, making quips as per normal. More realistic dialog would be something like “let’s just get the job done”.

*She begins to float away to her leviathan

  • Raynor: My pleasure, darlin’.

  • Raynor: Always was.

Are you serious? Even after you said “we’re done” in the prison cell? That part of his reaction was actually believable, but the fact that he went all 180 just because Kerrigan saved a few civilians at the end of her slaugtherfest is ridiculous.

Anyway, I find the dialog completely incongruent with a universe where Kerrigan and Jim are actually unstable psychopaths. The total absence of dialog calling out this weird dynamic where we’re working with a mass murderer and Jim is in love with a mass murderer is uncanny.

What’s the point in denying it? This is why we have people like Charmed who think Kerrigan is a gift from god and did nothing wrong.

However, if you guys think Raynor changing his stance on Kerrigan and his own morals all fits and makes sense, no problem. I can see where you’re coming from. Far be it from me to take away from your enjoyment of the game.

I just think it would have been cool if we got a story that everyone respected instead of a story that only you guys can respect.

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Now I know Gradius’ PIN number.

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Also you haven’t mentioned Liddy.

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@Gradius Good write up. A few quick points of disagreement:

  • People can absolutely change significantly in less than a year, let alone four. This is especially true when substance abuse gets factored in. I’m saying this point from first hand experience. For Raynor to shift from wanting to kill her to lamenting his own failures and the people he lost while his own little rebellion was stagnating and he was dealing with alcoholism, how we see him at the beginning of “Wings of Liberty” is very believable.

  • For Raynor’s sense of right and wrong, in the original game, he focused on Kerrigan being sacrificed by Mengsk as his reasoning for leaving the Sons of Korhal. We know he wasn’t cool with Mengsk selling Tarsonis out to the Zerg, but he left because of Kerrigan. This is from his own dialogue in-game. A year or more ago I quoted a bunch of this, and you got mad at me for quoting from the game :confused:.

  • For Metzen’s statement, it was made pre-launch and what we got in-game is very different. Of course I’m going to say it isn’t right! Because it isn’t! Things obviously changed in the three years from that Blizzcon to launch.

  • For Raynor talking to Hansen, she knew there was more to it, but he wouldn’t open up more, and the more was Kerrigan.

  • It’s not a double standard, it’s emotion. People do weird things because of emotions. Whether it’s actually love or not, he’s certainly latched on to her. I mean, this is the guy in the original game who took his crew to Char based on a dream. He was into in the original game clear as day, no matter how much you all want to not see it.

  • Yes, and in the original game when those characters insulted her, she a) wasnt’ the self proclaimed Queen %$#^$ of the Universe yet, and b) got them back good. She messed Zeratul up so bad, he went into self imposed exile and depression. She left Mengsk to wallow in the failures and ashes of his own Empire and to watch her become a major power (I do personally suspect Amon influenced her to let him live though, as killing him would have been more in character), and for Raynor, well, even here he gave her pause and their little confrontation caused her to feel tired of the senseless slaughter. You know, because there was a thing between them. But she called it, he didn’t have the guts.

  • I absolutely agree seeing conversations of characters behind her back expressing disgust and such over her actions would have been cool, but the expansion is told from her perspective and honestly, I figure that was all a given.

  • No, but Artanis was desperate for allies and just discovering how badly her Swarm was hurt.

  • For his Xel’Naga comment, that sounded more like amazement, not reference. He also isn’t kneeling to her, as you’ve mentioned in the past, he’s kneeling to Ouros and his sacrifice.

  • We’ve had the psychopath talk before, and I agree both characters are in serious need of help, but in the good old Koprulu Sector, that doesn’t seem to be a thing. Even looking at just Terran society only, it’s extremely messed up. They did come up with ReSocs, after all.

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Something else to consider: Raynor himself explicitly considers himself to be a less than sterling individual.

“Matt, my interest in Justice died out a long time ago.”
“You’ll get your better future Matt… but it aint for the likes of us.”
“Huh, I aint that good [a man]”

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Because it doesn’t prove he left only because of Kerrigan. You’re saying the deaths of billions didn’t factor into his decision whatsoever? That’s kinda a bold claim.

Does he ever say “the only reason I’m leaving is because Mengsk betrayed Kerrigan”? Nope. Kerrigan is just what made it personal for him, so of course he’s always going to bring it up.

That’s pure subjective opinion, which doesn’t top a statement by the lead writer & creator of his character. Lots of people think Raynor was a semi-decent dude even in Wings of Liberty.

What’s a simpler explanation? Metzen went 180 with his favorite character for no apparent reason? Or Metzen sucks at writing? The former is a pretty wild leap, so I’m going with the latter.

Even if that’s what you think though, the statements are still dead accurate to who Raynor was in SC1. Just because 4 years elapsed doesn’t mean he became cool with mass murder for no apparent reason.

The lack of interaction with Kerrigan might have turned his hatred for her into apathy, but not love. That makes zero sense no matter how much “people change”, which is starting to sound like some catchphrase that means “the writers can do whatever they want.”

He’s rescuing crew members. No man left behind. :muscle:

Doesn’t matter. She already “got them” in the first place. People just don’t talk like that to someone they hate the way they do to her in StarCraft 2. It’s completely out of place. People show more disdain for Alarak than they ever did for Kerrigan. It’s freaking weird.

If it was a given we wouldn’t have so many people interpret the game as the opposite. The dialog that does exist shouldn’t have made it seem like Kerrigan isn’t committing heinous war crimes.

At the least, it should have been more apparent by the time LoTV came around instead of people in-universe still acting casual about it.

You’re basically saying that everyone in the game is a scumbag, which I can’t get on board with. Swann & Horner are clearly meant to be decent dudes. Someone should have pointed out how screwed Raynor/Kerrigan’s relationship is.

So does batman. It just means Raynor is a tortured character, not that he turned evil just because it was 4 years.

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You know Gradius, for somebody who complains about how he doesn’t think the story makes sense, you are awfully resistant to any reading that results in the story making more sense.

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He doesn’t want a story that makes sense, he wants to make snide remarks about the story and act superior.

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And you’re a delusional fanboy that never posts anything of value. Go away.

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It’s not about being resistant to a reading that makes sense, it’s about explaining what I didn’t like about the story. I’d be happier if you got my argument than if you just agreed with me.

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I DO get your argument, I just think its silly and amounts to “this isn’t to my personal taste, therefore its objectively bad.”

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Hmm, you’ve said that on several occasions before yet misconstrued my argument all the same, so I’m not fully sure if you do.

I think “it’s been 4 years, so Raynor is a psychopath now” is silly too. Now what?

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Given that that’s literally never been a claim, im disinclined to take you seriously.

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It was meant to be obvious sarcasm/hyperbole.

Anyway, I’ve clearly demonstrated that Raynor finds mass murder deplorable in SC1, and that even the character’s creator considers him to have a basic sense of justice and right/wrong, at least based on SC1.

Isn’t your guys’ core argument that this is no longer the case in Wings and he’s in love with a mass murderer because “it’s been 4 years” and now he’s mentally unhinged? :thinking:

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Raynor is clearly suffering from the plot needing him to believe in Kerrigan.

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Raynor doubts his own goodness on several occasions, he simply can’t see himself as a hero. Usually these denials come right after he’s done something heroic. He’s Luke Skywalker and he doesn’t put a bullet in Kerrigan because he still senses good in her or whatever. It tracks so far, his outrage after finding out she reinfested herself and murdered a bunch of people under own free will was fine.

But that should have been it, he should have been done, no showing up a few missions later with that “it’s been a plesure”, “always has.” garbage, because god forbid the writers favorite character have to deal with a single consequence for her actions. The universe doesn’t even bend itself backwards this far for Thrall for Pete’s sake.

The only real blemish here is shooting up people minding their own business and then stealing their stuff. Though the game clearly didn’t intend for it to come off like that.

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@Gradius

  • It’s not a bold claim, it’s what the character focuses on. In the original game. Using the Zerg on Tarsonis did not sit well with him, but he focused on Kerrigan being sacrificed.

  • Uh, Gradius, he does say that: “I can’t believe he actually left her down there. I’m gone, and you’d better come with me. There’s no telling who Arcturus’ll will screw over next.”

  • It’s not subjective opinion. Metzen said one thing, and three years later after a great deal more development and changes, the released and canonical product is different. This is fact.

  • For the original game, the last good man in the galaxy wouldn’t take his entire crew to a hostile world over a dream. For the girl he’s pining for. In the original game. Raynor is an awful person in the original game, and he’s generally the best we see of Terrans. Keep in mind the Terrans in the Koprulu sector aren’t the nicest and most charitable bunch.

  • It does matter. And I’m surprised you have yet to deal with people you hate in terms where you need to speak respectfully or what-not to them because they outrank you. People absolutely do talk like that.

  • The morals of the Koprulu Sector don’t seem like the morals here in our present day world. The Terran governments have been glorified mobsters and dictators. People are oppressed and abused. No one ever seems to bat an eye much over all the violence, corruption, and such. It’s a pretty #^%#@ place to be.

  • Kerrigan and Raynor’s relationship is messed up.

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Those are three separate sentences/ideas. Nowhere in there does he say “I’m only leaving because of Kerrigan”. Furthermore, he clarifies in Wings of Liberty that it was the genocide that started their revolution.

He focuses on Kerrigan though because he’s only human and that’s what’s personal for him.

I gave you two quotes that Raynor disapproves of mass genocide and started his revolution because of it. And that’s from Wings of Liberty to two different people. Not really inconsistent with Metzen’s statement.

Now it’s your turn to provide evidence. If it’s a “fact” that Raynor doesn’t care about mass murder, it should be easy for you to produce that evidence.

At the very least I think you can admit that Metzen is the authority on Raynor’s character and that his opinion on SC1 Raynor trumps your opinion on SC1 Raynor.

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  • @Gradius They are three sentences, they’re a single, cohesive idea. You can cherry pick all you want, but the games disagree with you.

  • I never said Raynor doesn’t disapprove of mass genocide/murder, I said he’s not the last good guy in the galaxy, as that’s what Metzen said he was. And Raynor’s not, as per the games themselves.

You’ve also always heavily, heavily criticized Metzen throughout all the years I’ve been on this board. I don’t recall your exact wording, but you’ve long since said anything he’s done is hot garbage, and it was James Phinney who made the original game’s story any good.

I find it interesting that the only times you’ve ever clung to anything Metzen has said is when an interpretation of a Metzen-statement supports what you’re trying to say in gross contradiction to the games and lore itself.

What @Kelthar said in this thread does indeed ring true: “You know Gradius, for somebody who complains about how he doesn’t think the story makes sense, you are awfully resistant to any reading that results in the story making more sense.”

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  • So still no evidence for your “fact” thats “in the game”? Great. :neutral_face:
  • I can’t believe he betrayed Kerrigan. I’m leaving. Two separate sentences where you’ve assumed the former is the only possible explanation for the latter. That’s a non sequitur or causation fallacy.
  • Even if you somehow managed to misread and think the deaths of billions of civilians didn’t manage to factor into his decision whatsoever, which, come on, sounds freaking ridiculous, he explains in Wings of Liberty twice that the mass genocide is what started their revolution.
  • I think Metzen is kind of an authority on what he intended with a character and his own personal thought process lol. I don’t like his writing but he’s entitled to his opinion. I never question devs on in-universe info unless there’s contradictory information.
  • I’m not allergic to “a reading that makes sense”, I’m allergic to contradictions. You’re telling me Raynor is a scumbag and is cool with dating a mass murderer even though I gave you multiple examples of him drawing the line at mass murder? Why should I buy this plot hole inducing explanation? I’m merely testing how water tight your argument is.
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