Ideal Mission Order for LotV campaign

Campaign Discussion
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About urgency, yes, there isn’t really one. As for zero benefit, you’re using information after the fact. We don’t know that the Keystone is effectively useless until we get it.

Well, that’s even better for me. If that’s the nature of Protoss, then I have even less problem leaving the civilian in danger.

As we have established, the Protoss can avoid getting killed or maimed in battle. Even then, had they activate the emergency warp just a bit sooner, they could reduced the maimed or death rate. Yet, they don’t. I can’t think of any good reason other than they enjoy a little thrill that comes along with it. This means that they enjoy being exposed to danger. I have even less problem exposing those civilian, Protoss’ civilian, to some risk and danger.

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What’s the Trolley Dilemma?

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Okay, but not ‘by he’, right? Because he is the one who raise the issue.

Even more reason to get the Keystone. The only potential object that could stop this End War. And if the Nerazim can’t stand against the coming threat, I have even less faith in the Terran.

Sorry, but they’re in a much worst shape than Shakuras.

EDITED: Maybe, skewed is the wrong word, here. What I meant is that the situation is extremely specific. It’s more likely that either (Artanis will be too late) everyone will be killed or some will be save despite the delay. It have to be very specific situation that the only way for Artanis to save anyone is to go to Shakuras right away and any delay will be unacceptable.

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126

You are standing next to a switch. A trolley comes down the rail about to hit 5 people. You can activate the switch and reroute the trolley, but it will kill a single person in the new rail.

What will you do?

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127

You are using knowledge that is unknown to the character at this point. Also it is as far as we know in the hands of your trusted and comptent drunk ally.

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When saving his species and the life of the entire universe became amoral, he will guarantee that saving Shakuras is not a temporary victory.
The ability to withstand sacrifice for a protoss exceeds that of a human plus we return to the false dilemma will not leave Sahkura. our summary about korhal position is this:
"Artanis: Now that I have managed to obtain a ship to leave Aiur, I can continue with my plan to recover the artifact, Zeratul’s last wish, the only one who understood this fight because he spent several years studying the conflict, and the last Hope to avoid the universal extinction, for which many protoss were sacrificed to know this. Recovering it will be easy because our friend Raynor has it, I can do it quickly and direct me to Shakura before some of Amon’s forces arrive and I prepare a defense.

Artanis: This moment is ideal, the SoA, despite being powerful, does not have enough solarium for its artificial sun, to activate all its war systems, and doing so now that it is in a fixed position will prevent any problem before any event generates its loss, since it is an object that can be stolen even by the internal divisions of the terrans they are a conflictive race, or even Amon as a xelnaga can be aware of the importance of the artifact.
Artanis: Oh no Korhal is being attacked and the terran are appealing to each other, I hope this does not delay us.
Artanis: platform will eliminate its capital, we will help our allies so that they can give us the artifact
Artanis: oh they did not steal the artifact and the psychic powers of the hybrids have disabled any defense, they will be massacred, we will fight for them and recover the artifact, as I suspected the artifact could disappear and with it the hope of winning this war not only ours but also of lifetime.
Artanis: we have recovered the artifact just in time, hopefully it has not delayed too much we must head to Shakuras
Artanis: but what is that? I was late, but how did Shakuras fall so soon were we strongly defended? his instantaneous travel the warp gates xelnaga made Amon overtake me to reach Sakuras easily even if I had gone straight. I also took the shadow guard by surprise they did not expect an attack from this, nor did he imagine that the zerg forces would be bigger than the first invasion of shakuras. to be hidden behind the portal so they spent their effort in a fight that they will not win. luckily we still maintain a quadrant of Telematros, it only remains to evacuate,

Artanis: sakuras was lost Amon is a threat not only physical but an invisible almost supernatural force that scabs the will of my people against which there is no way to fight and will make us fight each other but we still have the artifact before it is lose. It will allow us to find the xelnaga that will be able to fight against forces that exceed our capacity, this perhaps is the hope of which the vision of Zertaul spoke "
While your interpretation of all this is
Artanis: Come on korhal, the artifact is more important than the Nerazim, just as the Nerazim stand alone and if not, it will sacrifice itself for the common good.
There is a perfect example to understand what we have here
one will end in fire
A mother ship tries to rescue another but just as it tries to rescue its ship, it presents a failure and both die, the loss of artifact is that failure, the intention to save the crew of a ship is useless if it condemns both crews.

Is that you think that fighting Amon is an option, it is not, we are talking about universal annihilation this is not a military objective it is lifelong survival,
In the dark vision Amon corners all the protoss and kills them together with every zerg that was not a hybrid that is the vision of zeratul

such an example of the motehrship saving the mother ship is only a temporary consolation when there is a small crack in his crystal, if they all felt well towed by the troo ship but if he had been aware that it would happen, he would have preferred to die than take both crews. that small flaw that seems insignificant was the difference between saving everyone and nothing, that was the artifact.

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Gameplay wise order question. Do energizers work on your static defense like the do with Karax in co op?

Just wondering doing Glacius before Shakuras would make Last Stand easy.

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Two things from the last debate that Team Korhal First haven’t addressed:

  1. (A) Saving 194 million Nerazim lives that Artanis explicitly mentioned that Amon was going to attack vs (B) securing an unproven artifact with the 8-months-of-wartime-peace Dominion forces and their orbital fleet defence system are in place to protect on a planet of 6 billion people.

  1. Yes! It’d be very hypocritical for Artanis to rally his troops with unity before the first reclamation of Aiur during the LOTV cinematic and then turn his back on the ideal of a unified people for a quick pit stop. You can argue character development with Zeratul all you want, but it’s not consistent with Tassadar’s Khalai teachings at all.

  2. The idea of honourable sacrifice is voluntary. Like others have said, if the collective abandons individuals, then those individuals do not feel honour or glory. Best example is when Aldaris abandons Fenix in SC1 in Higher Ground and then claims he died of glory in the next battle:

  1. There is no shame in living another day so that the protoss can strike back harder the next. Otherwise, the protoss would’ve never considered evacuation in any situation (e.g., Khalai Refugees evacuating Aiur, Daelaam evacuating Kaldir, Nerazim leaving Shakuras). Fenix summarizes it best:

This parallels Vorazun’s sentiments on abandoning Shakuras:

Also, not sure when, but the Golden Armada were attacking Dominion worlds during LOTV.

Also, interestingly enough, Amon’s main strategy was to divide and conquer:

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131

False , we already dealt with this, and it boils down to a false dilemma, question the reliability of zeratull, first post I make a summary of those that we propose in general and the previous post has all the dialogues that push the character, which, contrary to choosing Shakura comes down to “get there before Amon”.
In addition to forgetting that the korhal’s defense network was destroyed, Artanis does not know when Sahkuras will be attacked, he only stipulates that he must arrive earlier (Amon arrives earlier because he uses warpgate xelnaga, and Artanis did not expect it) Artanis’s Plan included the recovery immediate of the artifact, the army of the terran civilian portion is greater than the Protoss, the risk is not the ally but that the artifact may disappear.

does not contradict them because we are talking about global extinction, it can satisfy you to “save” Shakuras who really has more troops than you (Vorazun did not want to participate in the Recalmation) but if in the end they die in vision cornered because you did not recover the artifact. Tassadar collided with all the force to kill Overmind only after he managed to eliminate it people began to thinking evacuating. Artanis did the opposite to Tasadar when he end battle and restarted another to go rescue Tassadar, THE khala is the supreme good if everyone dies there is no good and I will repeat
“such an example of the motehrship saving the mother ship is only a temporary consolation when there is a small crack in his crystal, if they all felt well towed by the troo ship but if he had been aware that it would happen, he would have preferred to die than take both crews. that small flaw that seems insignificant was the difference between saving everyone and nothing, that was the artifact.”

Aldaris did not abandon Fenix, the zerg counterattacked when the cerebrate rallied and were simply overwhelmed by a lightning attack, and no Fenix is not trumatized. We have already raised the case of contingents of troops who voluntarily sacrificed themselves. The Nerazim are not being abandoned they are defending their planet they failed and we help them evacuate and take revenge. If you realize we didn’t fight the invasion, I gave maintenance and then we served as bait. If the shakura could not, we least remember 196 million protoss that differentiates towards a ship with low power and a crew that was supposed to flee

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Lycan you keep using the fact that both options are cool as far as the game gameplay goes.

We are looking at it from Artanis’ point of view at the moment of departure from Aiur.

What we are actually using as argumentation are situation that are similar to this one and Artanis’ behavior in these situations.

Y’all are Alaraks, Xel’Naga bootlickers or you hate Nerazim.

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I already made a foundation in the mentality of Artanis previous post with artifac like center and protos psicology End fire , after I did a dramatization of Artanis based on the facts of games, I am only sliding towards where they are going with for example Eric with things like that Korhal is better defended or that he will be one of these poor millions of Nerazin

Artanis has moral questions but if he believes that the benefit of all he does, he sees his entry into Ulnar he could have died, his pressure on the recalmation of aiur questions the value of Aiur but since he seems to unite his people he decides to sacrifice lives, his attack to rescue Tassadar when the same Tassadar stopped for the conflict surrendered. Artanis is not Tassadar is on a path between Fenix and Tassadar. His peace treaties led to Urun’s death, many decisions lead to death and it is not born of hatred or indifference, is a leader who knows that everything is going to extinguish and the only thing that separates it is an artifact
pd Cybros before Slayn

the khala must be rebuilt

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Other flaw of Korhal first option is you need an army.

If Keystone is safe sure you could just pick it up. But there is no also no harm in waiting then either.

If on the off chance the Keystone is not safe, can you really do something about it with just the former Khali on the Spear, and zealots in statis? Yeah you have robotic construction forges on the spear but production takes time.

Hence its a flaw with the Korhal first option both initially and even more so if we look back in retrospect.

In retrospect there is no way immortals should be ready by Korhal if you game straight from Auir. Dragoons yes, they are an old Auir / conclave design . But the Spear wasn’t set up to construct immortals, it would have taken Karax and other phasesmith some time .

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135

the spear of adun is designed to build a daily fleet adapting dragons into immortals would not be crazy

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Dragoon technology is not necromancy. You need the Protoss to remain alive.

Loss of Nerazim would be extremely painful until Endion, if the Daelaam would be even able to get to Endion without Nerazim.

Anyone sensible goes lorewise Endion before Slayn. You don’t want to look like Alarak’s bidge.

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Dragoon technology was recovered by the[Daelaam](during the [Reclamation of Aiur].However, due their Khala integration the majority fell under [Amon])'s control when the Khala was corrupted.
Dragoons that predated Khala integration were discovered among the forces in stasis aboard the [arkship],

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Lycan is Lantharis confirmed.

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Not my point. 202020

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that they had dragons in stasis ?

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It’s a false dilemma because it’s literally an either / or choice in terms of priority. You have to choose one option: warning / evacuating the Nerazim on Shakuras or securing the Keystone on Korhal.

In addition to forgetting that the korhal’s defense network was destroyed

You’re right, but the field manual says that the Dominion military is “certainly the most powerful ever deployed” (Starcraft Field Manual 2015, p.9) in 2506. So they have the capacity to defend themselves. Let’s also not forget that Artanis or one of his delegates signed the peace treaty with them, so we can safely assume that Artanis knows how much military might they have.

Rhetorical question: is there no honour in dying to save your people?

If Aldaris didn’t abandon Fenix, why didn’t he allot more forces for Fenix to defend Antioch? And yes, Fenix was traumatized because he died in that battle and nowhere in that battle or the cinematic after did Fenix yell “My life for AIur!” or anything of that sort.

Yes, good point. The rescued Nerazim became part of the Daelaam forces (because where were all the DTs, corsairs, void rays before they were rescued?). Immediately, they served as scouts for the Daelaam.

If on the off chance the Keystone is not safe, can you really do something about it with just the former Khali on the Spear, and zealots in statis? Yeah you have robotic construction forges on the spear but production takes time.

Exactly. Exoskeletons are incredibly resource intense for protoss. And by aggressive estimates, there’s 100k zealots onboard the SOA. It’s not enough compared to a possible labour force of millions if you save all 194 million Nerazim.

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???

I’m using the fact that you don’t know anything and so it’s unreasonable to assume that the situation is that specific.

Is this bother you? I want to keep this going, but not enough to upset you. You should also know that I care about you enough to not argue with Eric.