I would love to see Blizzard release an official order so this whole debate can be put to rest.
1 Like
āTrick: Doesnāt affect their bottom line, they wonāt ever do such a thing. Also, the story is inconsistent as it is regardless of the official order. You should play this indie thing you have never heard of before.ā
This impersonation of TrickyHunter was done by yours truly Shield of Mengsk.
Also, sorry (but not too much) for being mean.
The difference is, if heās sending them into battle, theres a certain amount of buy-in from them. Theyre warriors, they made choices to put them on that battlefield. The civilians on Shakuras did not make that choice and did not have any agency in it.
3 Likes
What Iām trying to figure out is how this thread topic managed to be stretched out to 100 posts.
1 Like
Gameplay wise I think best to go Slayne than Endion or Ravenscar. Honestly probably Endion last if we are just talking gameplay. Colossi donāt help much on Slayne or Ravenscar. If you do Ravenscar last the only benefits are more SoA solarite and you can get 3/3/3 on your Carriers.
Story wise I think Slayne-Endion-Ravenscar is right. Though first time through I had to go Endion first to show Alarak Iām in charge. He canāt just walk in all disrespectful and expect to call the shots!
Itās awkward though having Alarak hanging out on the SoA if you delay Slayne.
Youāre mostly right, however, the difference is a minor one; not huge.
Also, the Reclamation anime protrait it best. Artanis might be agonizing over the desicion, but that wonāt stop him from choosing it. With a big if that he must think the choice is important enough. I think derceinlycan already shown that it is.
I see. Thatās quite a difference, but you have to understand the situation. Theyāre in the biggest crisis ever face by the Protoss as a race. Artanis might want to save his people, but he is also the leader of the Daelaam. When faces with such crisis, some moral line has to be cross. While the Shakuras has many civilian, we know that the Nerazimās civilian is combat train. Moreover, the number of truly helpless Khalai is presence, theyāre Protoss. And as a race the Protoss is capable of facing danger and potential death for a greater good, I believe this trait is even presence in their civilian.
Iām too stubborn to give up and these guys are too stubborn to admit that theyāre wrong (according to me, of course).
Agree, I put Slayn at the second just to spite him. The reason that I donāt put it in third is so that I can told him that Iām going to Ravenscar not Aiur.
1 Like
It. Doenst. Matter. If. The. Civilians. Can. Fight. You keep throwing red herring arguments at this as if it somehow changes the fundamental idea going through Artanisā head.
Artanis is not going to tell them to shove off just because he has something else to do. Period. Theyre his people. He is responsible for their well being. Artanis is almost literally incapable of telling somebody that they arent worth attempting to save.
2 Likes
And what exactly is this fundamental idea that going through his head? Is Artanis such a simple/single minded that once the idea of civilian in danger crept through his mind, he canāt fathom anything beyound that? That he immediately shut down all thought and just pursuit this singular goal of short term survival?
Iām not sure what red herring means. I google it, but I might grab thing by the wrong end so sorry in advance.
Iām not trying to distract you from the fact that civilian is in anger and that Artanis would want to save them. I simply point out that there are other factor to consider. That Artanis is capable of consider thing from more than one angle. You seem to discard everything, by saying that Artanis wonāt care about anything else once the risk of his people come in mind. I strongly disagree with that. All my argument is for that end; to show you that there are multiple example of Artanis endanger his people for other goal.
Itās not as simple as you make it out to be.
But he is capable of sending his troop to die or maim for life. Another discussion in other threat bring a very relevant example to my mind; the distruction of Shakuras. Artanis is perfectly capable of sending his people, albeit a warrior, to danger in order to crippling Amon. Why is it so hard for you to imagine that he might be able to leave Vorazun and her Shadowgruad to defend Shakuras just a while longer while he secures the mean to defeat Amon? The fact that Artanis turn vorazunās idea up to eleven shows depht to his character. There is also that time in Brood War when he went to collect the crystal, too.
I do admit that you raised a very good issue about them being civilian not warrior. However, thatās about the extend of your argument. If thereāre all warrior, then we have multiple case of Artanis totally capable of such decision.
1 Like
A red herring is a plot device in a traditional mystery designed to lead the reader, and in some cases the characters in the story, to an incorrect conclusion without actually lying or otherwise providing incorrect information. As an example, in a murder mystery, if the butler did the murder, the gardener may have been seen at the house at the time of the murder. His purpose there is completely innocent, but he looks superficially guilty and so suspicion falls on him, however he did not actually commit the crime and is thus a red herring.
In a debate, the term is used to refer to arguments that sound important without actually being so, distracting the debaters in the same way the red herring clues distract the mystery readers.
My peopleās lives over everything. Like, he explicitly rejects the idea of letting some of his people die to make the long term campaign easier. He wants to save as many of his people as he can.
Templar, sure. But again, they signed up for this. They know what theyre doing, they agreed to it, they want to do it.
But they ARENT warriors, so what does that even matter? Hence the red herring argument. You arent wrong in saying that Artanis will send templar to their deaths, but we arent talking about templar here, so it doesnt actually matter to the argument and i dont understand why you keep fixating on it. Its completely irrelevant and i fundamentally reject any arguments based on it.
1 Like
Thanks, that clarifies a lot of thing.
But itās not to make his long term campaign easier, itās to make his long term campaign even possible at all.
As of this moment, there is no mean by which he could win the war beside the Keystone.
And why is that? We know that the Protoss is relatively peaceful race. They fight but for a necessary cause not just out of bloodthirsty. Theyāre not a masochist, either (I think? Iām not really sure now that I consider it). The reason they go to war and suffer for it is about honor and greater good. Itās about those concept that they suffer. I believe the same can be said about those civilian from Khalai caste. They didnāt sign up to be in the frontline, but that shouldnāt automatically mean they shout āFor Aiurā and run into gunfire arm with nothing, but a pair of plasma blade given the necessity of circumstances.
I see. For me the difference is rather a small one. Give me some time to articulate myself. However, if I canāt, would you consider a draw? Unless, of course, you can get it through my thick skull why the difference is not negligible.
Iāll make it a lot shorter.
From Artanisā point of view. Leaving Nerazim on Shakuras to their fate is both illogical and amoral.
Former because heās throwing away something he canāt regain, amoral because we have seen him do anything to save his people even though it seems lost on Aiur.
In a clear contrast to Alarak. Alarakās idea wasnāt bad. At all. It was lot less risky and the reward is still beating Amon.
In this moment when everything was on the āāāking line Artanis still went for it.
By the way can anyone imagine Vorazun not being salty about the cleansing of Khala if Artanis came for Keystone first?
I mean, V is reasonable, but sheād definitely give him āāāt.
1 Like
But he isnāt fighting Amon for the sake of it. Heās doing it to save his people, so if it dies on Shakuras, he basically lost the war.
3 Likes
So many good argument, so little time. Later, Sword!
Theres no urgency to getting it though, and he cant do anything with it once he has it. There is 0 benefit to getting to it before Shakuras.
Because theyre Templar. Its literally their creed.
Actually, the protoss are incredibly violent as a species, and theyre aware of this. Its why the Aeon of Strife and their own violent capacities frighten them so much. They know that in their collective psyches is a violent explosion waiting to happen if they dont keep it carefully in check. The way of the zealot is all about harnessing that and channeling it in combat, and you dont get to become a High Templar until youve mastered it and can move beyond it.
Ok, then you believe wrongly. They might have the capacity to do so, but they didnt choose that life, and that choice is the important factor here.
Also going Korhal first implies Terran suck. And I wonāt stand for such notion.
Also did we get into some sort of debate how Europeans and Far Eastern cultures differ in their general worldview?
Itās basically the Trolley dilemma with mouthless Aliens.
Except that the trolley dilemma is stupid and this one actually has a viable answer.
1 Like
Yeah, the trolley dilemma is stupidly vague. Here we actually have a similar situation where we could see RTās choice.
If you read my previous argument, then you should already have my respond to our Probe Emperor. This issue was already raise by he/she (or him/her?). Basically, this is a very skewed scenario where most of the Nerazim is going to be killed regardless.
I hate that dilemma. I try to ponder over it many times; it breaks my brain every time.
That dilemma is a waste of time. There is not enough information.
Kelthar is a dude. Soā¦ him.
That scenario isnāt skewed, itās realistic. Itās THe End War.