Ideal Mission Order for LotV campaign

Campaign Discussion
82

Let me start off with this. I know this is going to be very hard for you to understand, but saying ‘risk of all of Shakuras’ means ALL of Shakuras.

Do you get it?

Now, we’re getting somewhere. I am not able to mind read the inner workings of your brain and being to respond to what you actually wrote is not what the definition of a Strawman is, either! No one is capable of that. We’re all being forced to do just that.

The world is not revolve around you (it’s around me). Everything that is true to you also true to everyone else! Nobody on this Forum is Strawman anybody. It annoys me greatly when your dismiss mine and other (but mostly, mine) by crying Strawman when it’s your fault, your broken English.

@Brother Bifrost

Did I convey myself properly? Do you get where I’m going with this? I’m not trying to be snarky. I sincerely need a confirmation. I think my intention is obvious, but I’m extremely bias in that regard.

Not at all. I thought we already agree that aboard the Spear of Adun is the safest place to be. Getting the Keystone is more about securing future not starting military campaign. This is also Strawman by your standard.

Are you not familiar with the Nerazim social structure?

It matters because the way you type until now is that a trip to Korhal is not a delay, but an abandonment of Shakuras. English is hard, I know, but that’s how you type it.

1 Like
83

All of Shakuras is AT risk. Everyone there has the potential to die. That’s what happens when Amon attacks the planet with the intent to exterminate all life. Does that automatically mean an evacuation is impossible?

I’d love to be able to pin this on your English, but this goes way beyond that. A normal foreigner wouldn’t need this explained to them.

Yes it’s the safest place to be and this debate is about whether the Spear of Adun should be used to rescue an object or people.

I’m clarifying what I meant by calling the artifact a side-quest (even though it was already obvious what I meant). You didn’t even make an argument. So who am I strawmanning? Myself? :roll_eyes:

Not everyone on Shakuras is a Nerazim. The khalai civilians have no reason to be with the armada.

Not every Nerazim of 194 million can fight, and if they did, that still wouldn’t make it right to risk their entire society just to get to some object faster, and not something Artanis would do. No, having a love for combat does not mean your life is expendable. No, having a gun in your house and being trained on how to use it doesn’t mean you deserve to get shot. Durrrrrr basic ethics is so hard, durrrr

Only by completely misunderstanding the word “risk” could you come to that conclusion:

risk - expose (someone or something valued) to danger, harm, or loss

Where do you see “abandonment” in that definition? Yeah, keep calling my responses strawmen because you don’t understand the most basic meaning of words. I’m done with you.

1 Like
84

Dude I smell a mod. Edit it.

85

Yeah, now Amon is suddenly a threat to all life. I could say the same with the entire Universe. All Terran is at risk as well. They all have potential to die. This is why getting the only thing that could stop him is essential and in line with the Protoss. They think of themselves as a guardian of all life. That’s why I think Artanis would want to sacrifice some of his people; it’s not for an object.

Honestly, I don’t know where the problem is. I believe it’s your reading comprehension, but I’m biased. We’re both biased. And nobody here wants to be a fair arbiter to our little quarrel.

Nope, it’s whether the Spear of Adun should be used to rescue Nerazim or warm off ally plus secure the only mean of saving everybody.

Yes, what you meant is obvious. It’s also ignorant and wrong. derceinlycan has provided multiple evidence to the contrary. What is this really? Are you ignoring evidence or Strawmaning? (I just realize that we overwhelm you by a sheer amount of evidence. All you got going for you is just a single line. Shouldn’t you admit that you’re wrong already?)

You did? Wow, that’s so meta!

Yeah, but they’re not as defenseless as you make them out to be, either.

Again? How many time must I keep repeating myself? It’s not some object. Seriously, if this is not a Strawman, what is?

Yeah, that’s not what I meant, either. It’s not even close to my point.

You know if this is not a Strawman, then I really need to be educated on what a Strawman is. You reframe my argument incorrectly and then you defeat the argument.

Okay, maybe the subject is too complicated for you.

Do you understand that some Nerazim is going to be killed even though he went there right away? Those Nerazim is already as good as dead, his decision and action can’t change a thing so we might as well not factoring them in the decision.

By delaying his arrival, some Nerazim will die as a result. These Nerazim can be saved if he decided to go to Shakuras first. That’s the real price of going to Korhal.

However, there’re Nerazim who is going to be saved either way. And this Nerazim shouldn’t be factor in the decision, either. So by keep saying that you risk all of Nerazim, entire society, you sounds like even this part of Nerazim is also at risk. The only way that is true, is that Artanis decides to abandon Shakuras all together.

So by delaying, Artanis risk the second catalogue of Nerazim not the entire Nerazim, got it?

Now, that is itself a Strawman! Whoa, how could you pull that off?

What? You want a divorce? Oh, please, we both know you will be back.

1 Like
86

Heres the crux of your misunderstanding. Artanis cant know that. Maybe he shows up a day later and the Void Thrashers have destroyed the warp conduit. Now the evacuation ships cant get out of the atmosphere and all the Nerazim die. Even beyond his general unwillingness to write something off as an acceptable loss, Shakuras is entirely more vulnerable than you seem to acknowledge.

2 Likes
88

Gameplay wise I recommend doing Glacius in between Shakuras and Korhal .

Gameplay case for Korhal 1st: Temple of Past can be pretty tough mission early on. Immortals can help taking on ultralisks and hybrids. Also more Spear of Aden energy / options can help with Temple of the Past if you do it late.

Gameplay case for Shakuras 1st: Dark Templar are very helpful for Glacius and Korhal missions. Yeah I find Temple of the Past tough but a lot of it is base layout / optimal use of static defense, so saving it for late doesn’t necessarily make it easier.

89

Lore wise either choice effectively justifies that Shakuras should be chosen first.

Shakuras 1st: When you arrive Shakuras is devastated . Survivors are desperately holding on . If you had waited any longer they would have been lost.

Shakuras 2nd or 3rd: When your arrive is devastated . Survivors are desperately holding on. If you had waited any longer they would have been lost. If you had come sooner you would have saved more Protoss.

Also when I show up on Shakuras I get the impression it was blitzed for hard and very fast. When I show up on Korhal I get the impression they’ve been fighting for a while. Mobius is winning but it’s been a case of the Dominion (still recovering from Kerrigan attack in HotS) slowly losing ground.

90

Terrans and Turtling. Most iconic duo of Starcraft.

1 Like
91

Here is a thing Artanis cannot influent the number of Nerazim in any catalog. Only his action whether or not to save the second catalog. What you describe is a case where the number of Nerazim in the last catalog is zero and most of the Nerazim belongs to the first catalog. Sure, his choice to delay would result in a total annihilation of the Nerazim, but even he comes right away the Nerazim is mostly lost and there is not much he can save either.

There is one thing to keep in mind, your scenario is a very skewed one. Either, all of Nerazim belong to the first catalog (and his delay doesn’t matter, he can’t save any) or some of the Nerazim is in the first catalog.

Regardless, Artanis’ action can either sacrifice or save the Nerazim is second catalog. While the number of Nerazim in each catalog is unknown, this fact will never change.

92

Good argument, there is just one thing, though. You’re using information after the fact. Artanis can’t know the situation on any planet while making the decision.

It’s generally agree long ago that we won’t use information that is unavailable to Artanis at the time in our argument.

1 Like
93

Yes, he absolutely can. If he gets there before Amon does, which is his goal, he can conceptually save all of them. Thats what the Arkship is for after all. And even if he cant, then getting there sooner still saves more lives than getting there later.

2 Likes
94

You need to try putting energizer on stationary mode. A few well place energizer can make a huge difference.

Think about it Emperor, the situation that you describe is the one where no Nerazim belongs to the first catalog.

The math is still the same no matter what Artanis hopes to be reality.

1 Like
95

What artanis is trying to accomplish is the entire point though. He wants to save as many lives as possible, and that means he needs to beat Amon to Shakuras. Adding in a delay reduces his ability to save lives.

Heck, listen to him rebuke Alarak when Alarak suggests that they should simply glass Aiur to ensure Amon’s defeat.

1 Like
96

You are right. I agree that Artanis’ personality is the biggest point I need to overcome.

My whole argument base on that Artanis is not afraid of sacrificing anyone to the point that he can’t choose anything, but Shakuras first.

97

Artanis doesnt sacrifice anybody. Thats the point. Templar may choose to make a sacrifice, but Artanis will never declare to other protoss “sorry, ive decided that you have to die today because you werent important enough to save.”

The Templar take that sort of thing seriously. “My life for Aiur” and all that. Their deaths are supposed to be as meaningful as their lives.

1 Like
98

You are not based on the consequences not on what Artanis assumes that can happen

The case of the Nerazim is that they could evacuate all the time we arrived at the end of a battle, the Nerazim wanted to support the planet in they invested their entire army in it that. Would not have changed, Artanis would have wanted to hold their capital too.

ArriveSahkuras:

  • Vorazun : Shakuras has fallen! The [warp gate]) linking this world to [Aiur] has been reopened. Countless hybrid and zerg pour from the other side! They’ve obliterated our cities. Decimated our [Shadow Guard]. We’re trying to evacuate the remaining population, but I am uncertain whether we can hold long enough to get them safely away.

and the evacuation now Beginning before mision into action in the mission later,Our motivation is not to initiate an evacuation but to ensure a safer passage and maintain this Nerazin portal that will teleport the ship instead of going by itself to orbit .

  • Vorazun : Shakuras teems with [Amon’s zerg broods]. We hold only southwest of quadrant of Talematros, and even that is in peril. We must evacuate our people, but the launch bays have been defiled with infestation. Only ground forces can clear them. Once the bay are free, the planetary [warp conduit] will allow our ships escape safely.

Implies that part of the defeat was that they were taken by surprise by the use of the warp gates (xelnaga portals). For the context, the warp gates work they are Xelnaga technology and the psionic matrix is ​​a pale copy, they travel through the Void which is a faster way of travel in Starcraft

  • Vorazun : My dark templar were tracking your invasion on Aiur when we were cut off. Then the warp gate opened. What happened, Artanis?

that any estimate that I had about a traditional invasion would have Artanis is subverted because Amon took a shortcut that also took the defenders by surprise and the nature of the portal hid the magnitude of the invasion (as I know Nerazin did not know the magnitude of the force on the other side)

Warp gates are most advace that Protoss tech

Old oficial page:
Once a gateway has been established, it can be reconfigured to an even more remarkable device: a warp gate. The technology used in a warp gate is barely understood even by the advanced sciences of the protoss, having been reverse engineered from ancient Xel’Naga devices found on Aiur and Shakuras. It is a measure of the desperation of the protoss that they are now willing to attempt to build such devices themselves.
warp gate map

wapr gates are instant travel over great distances

warpgates map
In the Aeon of Strife, Protoss warriors created warp gates to travel great distances instantaneously. The knowledge involved in their creation has been lost, but on some planets, these gates still remain. When these sites are discovered, they spawn some of the most violent battles as great powers try and control these ancient places of power. A series of these gates have been discovered and you and an Allied team have been dispatched to control these gates and discover the mysteries they contain.

warp gates to this protected_:

daark templar saga 3
―The warp gates are xel‘naga technology, and they can be found on many worlds,‖ Turavis continued. ―Any warp gate can open onto any other active gate. When we saw that there was a risk of invasion—by zerg, or the Dominion, or this dark archon—we redirected anyone who was already within the boundaries of the gate to another one. Jacob will have walked through the gate thinking to arrive on Shakuras, as you have, but instead will find himself in another place entirely.‖
Rosemary gaped at him. ―Oh, great. Can you tell which one?‖
Razturul shook his head. ―No. While it is not entirely random, there are still many possibilities.
The redirection is designed so that if it is an enemy, they will not be sent anywhere that they could do harm to our people, but if it is one of our own, they will be able to survive.‖

void is matter in Xelnaga tech travel

placing their members
aboard a derelict Xel’Naga ship and sending them off into the Void.

AS HER SHIP MOVED THROUGH THE VOID OF space
She let her ship drift, allowing the currents of the Void to carry it wherever the vagaries of gravity and
solar wind and space might direct it

regarding the number of effective combatants that the Nerazim had

  • Karax : I am not seeing any protoss life signs from within the engineering bays, Hierarch.
  • Artanis : Then they have met their fate.
  • Karax : Or perhaps they fought their way to safety. The Dark Templar do not follow our caste system. Some of their phase-smiths are trained warriors-skilled as any of ours.

As already pointed out to Korhal, we already have Zeratul’s motivation as the idea of ​​saving everyone in the long run. The mission could be easily chosen because it represented a easy mission of short duration, before Artanis found that it is under siege so it could be easy right now and given the easily movil nature of the artifact as multiple times it has already been demonstrated, and you don’t need much deduction for know that can happen.
Being a small object, nothing guarantees that the artifact will be maintained and given the value that Zeratul attributed to it : Salvation, going at this time guarantees having this vital piece and prevents it from being lost (it was lost in Char and was stolen in Korhal).

As for survival, Korhal was not a battle, it was going to be a massacre, so General Raynor could not prevent a space platform from being shot down and the Terran were totally defeated by the use of an artifact that paralyzed our little monkey brains without the presence of Artanis. there would be no battle, absolutely

99

But he does! Many time throughout his career. He sends many to die. The reclamation is one his largest and latest sacrifice. He really doesn’t need to get Aiur back, there is much other than sentimental.

I know it sound a lot like it’s avoidable and he could either decide to save the Nerazim in second catalog or get the Keystone. However, going to get the Keystone is about long term survival and those Nerazim are die protecting other and ensure the ultimate victory. I can’t think of a better cause to die for.

2 Likes
100

There is a huge difference between sending people to their possible deaths and leaving them to die.

1 Like
101

I fail to see the huge difference you’re referring to. In the end it’s about casualty from his decision. The only difference I can see is that one die because he sends them to their death, the other he left them in danger. Whether he sends them from safety to danger or not bringing them away from danger, the difference is minor.

1 Like
102

Action vs inaction. Choice vs indifference.

Yes, result is different, but this is about the way characters conduct things. We are talking about Artanis, not Alarak or Mengsk.