What level of starcraft are we talking about here?
M-GM-Pro
You are so out of your element here it’s hilarious.
I know it’s hard for you to comprehend certain facts thanks to your heavy bias and delusion, but I’m here to discuss starcraft. There is neither narrative no act from me.
I have no clue what youre talking about.
Maybe it’s the most common comp against mech at the diamond level.
It’s not that simple and I’ve posted replays of the greatest minds of starcraft proving that it isn’t.
Oh wait zest stats maru and gumiho dont know enough about PvT mech according to the great myohmind LMAO
Wrong again. Although not as common it’s still used. Watch some of TY’s and Gumiho’s TvZ games for example.
And they still know the matchup better than anyone else on the planet. especially some random diamond player who doesnt know how marauder kiting works.
Not against a properly executed tank mech push.
Just because you think pushing out onto the map with single digit tanks and a few hellbats is legit strategy, does not mean it is.
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It’s out of character for you.
M-GM level it’s the most common response.
It is simple and it doesn’t change the power of Mech in TvT and TvZ.
Hellbat - Bio tag = Viable TvP Mech.
I do know how it works and I was able to test a BW style Zealot speed upgrade very well in the map editor enough to know which speed would be needed for Zealots to fight concussive marauders.
You are so clueless about everything and always make assumptions about fights you know nothing about.
No it’s not
It would decrease the power of mech in TvZ
Hopefully we’ve established the legitimacy of Hellbats + medivacs in TvZ. Unless youre gonna tell me that gumiho, the premier TvZ mech player in the world, doesnt know what he’s doing.
Meanwhile Hellbat-archon dynamic is literally not a thing in TvP mech. Hellbats die faster to colossi and disruptors than they do to Archons which won’t even be able to touch a proper mech push. Archons are a non-factor and hellbats losing bio tag is worthless.
What speed is required then?
At least I post actual footage of the best players in the world supporting what I’m saying.
Footage which you constantly ignore and are probably incapable of properly analyzing anyway
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It is, if you talk to the few Terrans that actually play Mech in TvP in M-GM on the different servers.
It doesn’t at all since Mech players don’t constantly build Medivacs or build Medivacs at all.
Even he rarely does it. You can check his streams, replays, older matches and talk to him ingame if you can find him on ladder.
It’s always been a thing ever since Hellbats got a bio-tag on them.
Hellbats are up front holding back the zealots, the archons decimate them because of the bonus damage and everything collapses.
You would know this if you actually played M-GM TvP Mech and if you didn’t base everything off a few Pro matches against Protoss players that rarely if never face TvP Mech.
Colossus are not made against Mech and saying they are shows you truly have no knowledge about TvP Mech or how to fight it.
Archons shred hellbats. Go into a unit tester right now.
Archons touch mech pushes all the time because they decimate the hellbats protecting the mech. Hellbats losing the Bio tag would be a major buff to TvP Mech since Hellbats could survive longer against Archons.
4.5
I don’t have to. I know what the games look like.
I’ll give you yet another example of what high level TvP mech looks like
Here’s a EU GM Ladder game
Beastyqt vs Goblin
Some of the best GMs in the world on ladder including an actual pro player
Beastyqt goes for mech push with Tank and Hellbat
Not a single archon was built
Just accept it. Archons and Hellbat bio tag are non-factors in TvP mech viability.
I keep showing you footage of the best players in the world and your response is “I talk to people online”
It does. Since medivac + hellbat IS a legit strategy in TvZ, decreasing the potency of it does weaken a tool Terran has in its bag for TvZ matchup
Even if he “rarely does it” it is still a legit strategy that he uses to advance in the hardest premier tournament in the world
He is not the only one. I will find other pro players using it when i can remember exactly which games they were.
It’s only a thing in poorly executed terran mech play in TvP
aka Terran player like avilo thinks that he should be able to move out on the map in the midgame with tanks and hellbats vs protoss.
it’s comical that youre still trying to suggest that players like Stats, Zest, and Goblin don’t know what theyre doing.
I said colossi are better at killing hellbats in a mech composition than archons are, and colossi are more commonly built against mech than archons are. I never said colossi are staple against tank mech.
Mono battles archon shreds hellbats. everyone know this. the game is not mono-battles. Your monobattle is irrelevant when archons are trying to reach hellbats with the supporting fire of a huge terran mech army. Archons will evaporate before getting close. They are not worth the gas.
Youre either trolling or completely garbage at the game if you cant kite 4.5 speed chargeless zealots with marauders
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Most Protoss players don’t know how to fight Mech because they rarely encounter it.
The ones that do will break a TvP Mech player with a big chargelot-archon-immortal timing.
A(one) game, key word.
BeastyQt hasn’t been a pro in years and doesn’t plan on going Pro again.
They are a huge factor, it’s already been explained why it is.
Terran already has plenty of tools in TvZ, also it still would be effective even without heal since dropping hellbats on hydralisk can be devastating.
They don’t if they got surprised by Mech in TvP and forgot how to counter it.
You really are clueless about how Mech works in general or how it works in TvP Mech where you have to do a big push against Protoss before they tech into Carriers or Tempest, similar to how in TvZ you push before broodlords.
You are truly clueless about how TvP Mech works for either side if you think Protoss players are building Colossus at all against Mech players.
Again you have no idea what you are talking about because you don’t play Terran or Protoss.
Archons kill off the Hellbats that are trying to protect the Tanks and cyclones from the Zealots and Archons. Archons tank so many tank shots that it allows the Zealots to come in and kill stuff and the immortals to pick things off.
Stimmed bio moves at 4.72
Unstimmed bio moves at 3.15
A 4.5 speed upgraded Zealot would be a superior to charge against Bio.
There were actually only about 5 Hellions or Hellbats in combat at any point that game, so it doesn’t do much to prove or disprove either point.
Archons were used later for some kind of all-in push (no Hellbats were involved)
and Beastyqt lost most of his army holding that. The Archons did make it onto the Tank line and lasted quite a while, which contradicts what you’ve been claiming.
In that case, Beastyqt did have 3 reinforcement Thors at the time which would’ve likely been able to hold off the survivors if the push broke through though. The Protoss player didn’t have enough units.
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Don’t switch game-speeds on people.
Unstimmed Bio moves at 2.25 in editor (normal-speed) values. It moves at 3.375 in the stimmed case if you use the same standard.
The Zealot speed you mentioned (4.5, assuming that is faster speed) is equivalent to 3.214 in editor/normal values. This is slightly slower than Bio in practice; and not nearly enough to overcome the effects of concussive shells.
The Brood War Zealot moved at what is equivalent to 3.375 (normal/editor), but with concussive shells it would not be able to keep up with Bio. You could argue that Zealots would be better off with that speed if you removed concussive shells, but with concussive shells Bio is able to kite most of the units without retaliation.
I fixed the speed.
Also 50% of 4.5 would be 2.25, so even when concussive shelled the Zealots would still be very fast.
Anyways, lets focus back on the Hellbat.
That’s moving at faster values though, so no, a Zealot at that speed would move 28.57% slower than unstimmed Bio when it is hit by concussive shells. This is not enough to catch up to fleeing Bio even without stimpacks.
By contrast, if you meant 4.5 speed in normal/editor values, then Zealots would move at the same speed as unstimmed bio (2.25) when hit by concussive shells, but they still would not be able to keep up with stimmed bio.
The fact is that as long as concussive shells exist, Charge is necessary or Zealots will never get a hit on fleeing stimmed Bio.
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“Stats, Zest, and Goblin, who have collectively earned approximately 1 million dollars by virtue of their SC2 skill and understanding, don’t know how to play against a style of play that is used in premier tournaments and the highest parts of the ladder”
It’s unreal that you think Stats and Zest, literally legends of the game, don’t know what they are doing…and that you do and that your ideas should go directly to the balance team.
Talk about delusions of grandeur.
I am giving you actual footage - EVIDENCE. to go along with my flawless arguments.
You are ignoring everything including the evidence and saying that you talk to masters’ players online who know more about TvP mech than Code S champions, and goblin.
You are again proving that you are clueless about high level SC2.
Goblin is the pro im referring to. He’s currently top 20 in the WCS circuit.
Nothing has been explained. Your claims are completely debunked lol
Do you not understand the consequences of losing the godly medivac healing? Are you really that clueless even about your own race?
lmao
and here it is. straight from the horses mouth. myohmind thinks that Stats, Zest, and Goblin don’t know what they are doing (in most of those games they knew they were going up against mech btw)
troll harder
LMAO
you actually think the anti mech capabilities of Tempests and Carriers is the same as that of BLs. You think they are the same thing.
also I did NOT say to not move out before a Protoss player can mass carriers. All I said was that turtle tank mech cannot move out early like bio can.
beastyqt literally has a TvP mech guide detailing step by step what to do if a Protoss player masses carriers and tempests.
you are showing how out of your depth you are.
It’s not common but i’ve seen pro players use it vs battle mech especially. and colossi are better than killing hellbats in a mech army than archons are. no two ways around that fact.
Youve never heard of ghosts, mines, and critical masses of tanks and thors.
Like I said, moving out with a few tanks and hellbats is not the proper way to play tank mech.
jfc
do you not know that concussive shell cuts movement speed in half?
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If you rarely fight another playstyle and you play on auto-pilot naturally you are not going to do well against a surprise strategy.
Also I do have some very good ideas that accomplish what they say they do.
Nothing has been debunked and everything has been explained why Hellbats need to have the bio-tag removed to make TvP Mech more viable.
Very much if not more so. Both are faster, more durable and have more range.
I’ve never been talking about turtle tank mech. You don’t listen and you always assume.
That guide is a little outdated and against competent protoss it can only go so far.
No one uses Colossus to counter Mech. Also Archons shred hellbats which is why the Bio tag needs to be removed so it’s far less one sided.
TvP Mech =/= TvZ Mech
Also you don’t seem to understand that when Mech pushes across the map it’s not a “few tanks and hellbats” it’s a almost maxed to maxed supply value.
You seem to be struggling with all of this, which is unsurprising since you are a low level Zerg player trying to say he is a Terran and shows lacking of knowledge of Protoss and Terran and PvT in general.
Also you seem to be impressionable about Pro games and can’t think for yourself.
I do.
At 4.5 movement speed even with concussive shell the Bio would constantly have the zealots right on them and the second they stop the zealots hit them.
- Which metric are you using: Faster speed, or normal speed (editor values)?
- Are you considering the effects of Stimpacks on Bio’s speed or not?
Those are two basic questions, answer them. Unfortunately, based on those numbers, even using the most favorable values (4.5 normal speed), Zealots still would not be able to keep up with Stimmed Bio, so stop claiming that they would.
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Stimmed bio moves at 4.72 faster speed, not editor values.
A Speedlot moving at 4.5 faster speed, not editor values.
The difference would be 0.22.
I was giving an example of a test I did, where I was seeing how fast you would need to make Zealots to stay pace with moving stimmed bio.
The archons were literally a desperation all in because all his robos were being utilized at max capacity already. His “real” composition vs tank hellbat mech involved zero archons.
Goblin all but lost after he got crushed by beasty’s push and then lost a bunch of probes, which is why he hastily made as much army as possible and moved out for a hail mary.
Beastyqt didnt almost die to goblin’s push either. he beat it comfortably.
What we see here is that goblin, a pro protoss player, did not make any Archons against a Terran player who was pumping hellions and tanks.
What we see here is that Goblin’s hail mary all in which involved desperation archons failed miserably, further supporting the fact that archons are non-factor in TvP mech.
The best case scenario without concussive shells would put both Speedlots and Stimmed Bio at the same speed (which they actually were in Brood War).
However, once you throw concussive shells into the mix, any unit would need about twice the speed of Bio to keep up. This is the reason why Zealots need charge. Unless you recommend removing concussive shells, you simply cannot remove charge.
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Goblin expected Bio and had to tech switch and modify his strategy but by that point he was caught off guard.
I seriously want to know why you are so triggered over what we have been talking about in this thread. Since you lack so much knowledge about the subject.
Zerglings move at 6.58 after speed upgrade.