The only decent idea you have is a void ray re-design.
The rest…let’s just say we are all lucky your fantasy of influencing the balance team is nothing more than a fantasy.
explaining how armor tags vs damage bonus works is not proving your point.
saying that archons destroy hellbats in monobattles is not explaining anything.
saying that you talk to “master-GM mech users” is nothing in the face of replays of the greatest starcraft minds on the planet playing the exact matchup this discussion is about.
Thors, mines, and cyclones invalidate carriers and tempests.
They cannot beat BLs to anywhere near the same degree.
I’ve told you why your point is irrelevant for both tank heavy mech styles and battle mech styles. Unless youre talking about something else?
That guide worked before carriers were nerfed into oblivion and when tempests were stronger. Since the time the guide was made, thors got buffed, mines got buffed, and cyclones are better vs capital ships now.
You repeating the same false statement over and over again does not make it true.
I just posted replays of two pro games in which the Protoss player builds colossi vs mech.
Ive literally been saying that mech pushes have to be later in the game with high supply. Are you illiterate or something? I said that in several posts already.
wtf are you smoking dude?
stimmed bio is faster than a 2.25 speed zealot LOL
Okay, so you are using faster speed values. This is something that you actually need to clarify when you are talking about unit stats and mechanics, otherwise your posts are extremely misleading. In the worst case, the poster might be dishonest and change the game-speeds mid conversation to make misleading posts, and I’ve argued with at least one poster who actually did do that in these forums
No, Zerglings move at 8.55 speed on creep if we are talking about faster-speed values, which makes them almost as fast as stimmed Bio even after they get hit by concussive shells.
Furthermore, Zerglings are 1/4 of the supply of Zealots and Marauders while concussive shells is single target; so for every Zergling that gets slowed there are about 3 that do not. This is the reason why Zerglings are able to outpace and surround Bio despite concussive shells.
Zealots do not outnumber Bio in the same way, so they would have to move faster than Speedlings do on creep to be as effective. However, that basically puts them around the same speed as charge anyway; so it is better to just keep charge rather than try to rebalance Zealots without it.
You cannot remove charge as long as Concussive shells exist. That is the bottom line.
You don’t even know the rest of the changes. Go check out my Mod “Better Game Balance” if you want to see the changes I would implement. You might be very surprised with how well designed they are.
My point is relevant to all styles of Mech vs Protoss. Actually play TvP Mech and actually talk to all the Terrans that have tried Mech vs Protoss over the years.
Mines didn’t get buffed and Cyclones get destroyed by capital ships, which is why they get phased out for Thors.
It’s a statement of truth based of years of experience playing, watching and talking about TvP Mech in M-GM. Both perspectives, Terran and Protoss. Races you don’t play or understand.
They built them because they were expecting Bio so they were on auto-pilot.
“A few tanks and hellbats”.
Both are terrible design and that should be a topic for another thread. So lets focus on Hellbats again.
Dear originally was expecting a Marine-tank style, not full mech. Until he scouted and did the drop that is when he switched over to better counters.
You are struggling so much understanding how TvP and TvP Mech plays out.
If a Protoss knows you are going Mech he will respond with either Zealot-Archon-Immortal which he will use to keep you contained so he can go for air or out right kill you with a timing with it.
TvP Mech is such a rare style that Protoss can get caught off guard by it at most 1 game each series vs Terran but all games after it they crush it because they know how to scout it and respond to it.
“you dont know how to play”
“I have talked to other Terran players”
Meanwhile I am showing you what literally the best players in the world are doing, and they are doing things that fall in line exactly with my well detailed argument.
Mines got a build time decrease and drilling claws. Seriously wtf are you smoking?
Today’s mag accelerator cyclone > the old one in terms of fighting capital ships. Beasty said that cyclones are part of the strategy against protoss capital ships, and I’m saying that cyclones have been made even better since he said that.
Again, youre not providing any evidence or argument.
Your argument is based on mono battles and conversations with random players.
You have yet to show any evidence to support your bogus claims.
LMAO
watch the games again.
And watch that Dear-gumiho game
I said Terran players are NOT supposed to push out with a few tanks and hellbats
can’t tell if youre trolling or if reading is hard for you.
At least make it seem that you actually watched the game. It’s obvious that you didn’t because I posted a 20 minute game and you responded a few min later spouting utter nonsense about the events and strategy of it, and went back to repeating your baseless claims.
lol
What does protoss winning have to do with this discussion anyway?
You are judging everything over a handful of matches that you can scrap the barrel to find because TvP Mech games are so rare.
You have no independent thinking and lack so much experience of playing TvP Mech.
That build time decrease was a long time ago and drilling claws giving back the cloak happened a while ago.
Cyclones on paper seem great if you can get in range, not die and have vision long enough to get a full lock on. But the reality is that they die all the time in the late game.
I’ve explained the combat ecosystem in TvP Mech and how each side responds.
I’ve explained how Hellbats having a bio tag is a net negative to Terran in TvP and also TvP Mech Viability. Bio players never will use them and Mech players don’t build medivacs., nothing will change that.
Also I have years of experience playing TvP Mech and fighting Mech as the other races. I know how each game goes and how to scout for things.
I did watch.
Protoss plays Bio 98% of the time, so they naturally expect a few hellions or a marine tank push will go into Bio and not mech.
And I said they never do.
I did watch the game, and competent Protoss just dismantles Mech.
wtf are you talking about? I’m not scraping the barrel. Im getting games involving the best players on the planet that were deemed good enough to be uploaded to youtube. Including GSL games.
on the other hand, you have not attempted to even scrape the barrel to support your claims. at least link a replay to one of your supposed master-GM friends who according to you know how to play against mech better than Stats, Zest, Dear, and Goblin. You have not even done that.
All you got is “I got years of experience”
“I talk to people online”
“Stats and Zest don’t know what theyre doing”
“archons beat hellbats in monobattles”
and troll statements saying that I’m a zerg player or that I’m an alt user.
How do you even talk about independent thinking when you are appealing to the authority of the supposed many Terran players you talk to?
Independent thinking or not, facts are facts, and you have not provided anything in the face of a mountain of evidence from my side.
Mines got drilling claws after beasty made that guide…
Nobody is saying that cyclones are hard counters to protoss capital ship (although they hard counter tempests)
They are used in combination with the rest of the mech army to combat protoss capital ships though. Beastyqt detailed this in his guide, and it’s a well known fact. And I’m saying cyclones have gotten even better at fulfilling that role.
Not to mention Carriers and Tempests got heavy nerfs since that guide.
I did not say that mass cyclones beats mass carrier. save that for your mono-battle theorycraft.
No you havent. All you did was talk about bonus damage, or lack thereof.
Hellbat + medivac is a think in TvZ so your idea is a net negative for terran since Hellbats being bio are virtually a nonfactor in TvP.
No offense, but your experience doesnt mean anything as long as your level of understanding of the game is so low.
You suffer from delusions of grandeur. You think you know the game better than Dear, Stats, Zest, Goblin, Beasty and yet you dont even know how concussive shell kiting works.
Cyclones get phased out for Thors in late game TvP Mech because of how fragile cyclones are and how short range they are.
Hellbats being Bio tag are a major factor in TvP since for Mech, it makes Archons destroy the only unit holding back the Zealots and the rest of the protoss army for precious seconds.
Hellbats being Bio tag are a major factor in TvP since for Bio, Archons roll over them which means Bio doesn’t have a buffer against chargelot archon.
Marine-Tank players will never build hellbats nor will they stop Tank or Thor production for them.
Bio-Mine players will never build hellbats nor will they stop Mine or Thor production for them.
MMM players never build hellbats.
Battle-Mech players never build medivacs nor will they stop Liberator,Viking,Banshee and BC production for them.
Standard Mech players never constantly build medivacs nor will they stop Liberator,Viking,Banshee and BC production for them.
I know how it works, I remember when it was AOE in the beta copy pasted from the WoL campaign.
I understand the game better than most people. I have patch histories, I know unit stats, I know how to use the map editor quite well, I watch thousands of hours of SC2 and talk to players of all skill levels across every server. Even met some fun guys on the Chinese server recently. Also I used to play at a GM level a few years ago but now I’m more M level.
In early bio tank push having the surviving hellions soak banelings as hellbats can decide a game. Having them lose bio tag so they can perhaps survive the occasional chargelot-archon timing attack (haven’t seen one one ladder or on pro tournaments in recent memory) seems like a pointless change.
Also most protoss players tend to just tech to carriers as soon as they see you turtle mech.
We are not talking about turtle mech. Do anyone of you have original thoughts or know about Mech or TvP Mech at all?
Having Hellbats lose the bio tag allows them to survive longer against Archons, which allows primarily Mech but also Bio to some extent a good buffer to keep back or kill the Zealots. Also it allows the Hellbats to stay up front and tank against the Archons and immortals better which are directly behind the zealots. This allows the tanks,cyclones, banshees, liberators, etc to survive longer.
Removing the Hellbat bio tag is a massive boost to TvP Mech viability in a match up that desperately needs more composition variety.
But after the early push, you will never build a hellbat again and those hellbats that you morphed from those surviving hellions are only there to die after hopefully doing some damage. So removing the bio tag really has little to no impact on it.
Also you do know that banelings to a bonus vs light right?. Removing the hellbat bio tag doesn’t impact that at all since hellbats are light.
It’s a huge factor if you actually played TvP Mech and also if you face TvP Mech after scouting it and knowing when to hit and what to build against it.
It’s role is limited to a point where it’s rarely done, and in TvP Mech hellbats bio tag is crippling since chargelot-archon-immortal can just role over you or break your positions because the hellbats all die to the archons so they can’t do the job they are designed to do.
I do know, and I’ve said repeatedly I don’t like either of them.
You are saying it proves your point, but you are completely clueless about everything going on or how the meta’s actually are because you don’t play anything but Zerg and pleasure yourself over anything you see Pro’s do or don’t do.
your experience playing mech in diamond league doesnt count for anything
archons do not work against a near maxed out or maxed out mech push.
and if youre trying to hold a position out on the map with tanks and hellbats, before you have high supply, you are not executing mech properly.
Tank-based mech = turtling vs protoss. Until you have high enough supply and tech, at which point archons evaporate.
While youre turtling, archons cannot dream of doing anything to your defenses.
Aka archons are a basically non-factor in TvP mech.
The Pros are literally the pinnacle of the game and the vast majority of balance is geared towards pro play. How do you play SC2 for almost a decade and not understand this. The Pros do everything as close to the right way as possible and they have a deeper understanding of the game than anyone else. Meanwhile you have STILL not provided any examples that support your nonsense.