Hellbat upgrades vs zealot

General Discussion
21

Because Hellbats are a terrible unit to add in most Bio compositions.

  • Bio usually relies on its mobility to kite and avoid splash damage. Hellbats are too slow for that.
  • Every source of splash damage that is strong against Marines (Disruptors, Colossus, Storms, Banelings, Siege Tanks, etc) is also strong against Hellbats–sometimes even stronger because of the Hellbat’s slow speed.

That is to say, Hellbats provide no advantage to Bio, they are usually a hindrance. Even if Hellbats were guaranteed to have equal or better upgrades to Bio, they simply would not be worth using.

Hellbats have 9-10.5 DPS (normal speed, multiply by 1.4x for faster speed) against non-light units with splash. That is a decent amount of DPS for a 2-supply unit.
For comparison:

  • It is more DPS than a stimmed Marauder has against non-armored units.
  • It is more DPS than a Hellion has against light units.
  • It is only slightly less DPS than a Stalker has against armored units.

Hellbats can consistently hit 2 or more units in most cases, so their actual DPS ends up being much higher than normal for a 2-supply unit.

This is balanced out by the fact that Hellbats have short range and slow movement speed (so they deal damage late or can be kited), but that’s why you use them with Siege Tanks that will punish the opponent for trying to keep their distance.

Secondly: Archons cannot ignore Hellbats as long as the Hellbats are still alive. Hellbats are large and tend to be present in large enough numbers that the opponent cannot get around them.

MyOhMind does have a point that Hellbats would perform better against Protoss (at least Protoss compositions with Archons) if they didn’t have a Biological tag.

Medivacs are rarely used in mech; whereas Archons are regularly used against it.

So yes, there is a strong case to be made that Hellbats would perform better specifically in TvP if they didn’t have the Bio tag.

That is only true in TvZ, and the Hellions are not likely to last long enough to be turned into Hellbats or used that way.

Without Medivacs, so the Bio tag and healing still don’t apply.

Medivacs are rarely used in mech even for drops, so MyOhMind is still correct here.

Removing the Bio tag would have a greater beneficial effect in TvP than it would have a negative effect in any other match-up.

2 Likes
22

Removing the Bio tag from hellbats is idiotic and only makes it harder for Terran players to use mech overall when considering both matchups

Hellbat + medivac mech is a legit strategy in TvZ.

On the other hand, archons are a non-factor when playing mech in TvP. If youre taking heavy damage from archons in mech TvP you’re probably diamond league or lower because A) archons suck vs mech for their cost and B) good Protoss players do not rely on archons against any kind of mech play. Not saying there’s anything wrong with being in diamond league but the problem is with you not the game design.

If youre going battlemech you should not fear archons at all since you can kite archons to death with hellion-cyclone-banshee and your DPS will dwarf an archon-heavy comp. You will eventually BCs and/or Thors which absolutely destroy Archon-heavy comps.

If youre going traditional mech you turtle with tank + mine + AA (cyclone is good). Archons are literally a non threat to this - going archon heavy vs this = insta lose for protoss because they are pissing away gas into a unit which cannot touch you. By the time youre ready to push out onto the map you have ghosts/thors/BCs depending on what the Protoss is building which again all eviscerate archons.

I know all the diamond terran players here won’t believe me, so instead watch the highest level TvP mech games we’ve seen this year.

Maru vs Stats at the super tournament
Maru vs Gumiho at the super tournament
Gumiho vs Zest Code S S2

Stats and Zest rarely if ever built archons in their games against the best terran mech players in the world.

Please learn how to play mech vs protoss.

3 Likes
23

Removing it makes it easier to use Mech against Protoss since Hellbats won’t take bonus damage from Archons anymore, TvZ and TvT Mech is completely unchanged.

Bio players don’t build hellbats and mech players don’t build medivacs.

Your lack of knowledge about anything Terran or TvP Mech or unit relationships is frightening and really shows.

It’s really not.

Batz please leave.

Archons break siege lines because they completely destroy the Hellbats protecting the siege lines because archons do a bonus vs biological and hellbats have a biological tag. Archons also don’t take bonus damage from Tanks so they are very durable.

You have no idea what you are talking about and it really shows.

Stick to whining about TvZ and claiming to be a Terran player when everyone knows you are Zerg which is why you hide your profile from everyone.

24

It strictly depends on your composition and playstyle.

Archons suck against Cyclones (because they cannot catch them) and Thors specifically, but they are actually great against both Hellbats and Siege Tanks because they can soak up 66-75% more damage.
It is initially harder to afford Liberators and Thors with that comp–although once you have the Tank count and resources left-over to do so Archons become much easier to clean up.

Tank/Mine is weaker and less reliable than Tank/Hellbat in most cases.
Vikings also tend to be the preferred form of anti-air, since they are more consistent and easy to mass. They can also land behind the Hellbats to provide some extra DPS when necessary and don’t have as many problems in a standing fight.

25

Obviously this will make them take less damage from Archons. The point youre missing is that Archons are borderline non-factor in PvT mech.

LOL

this shows how utterly clueless you are about high level starcraft play

Here is gumiho using it against reynor.

There are other examples I will post when i find them.

Or better yet, google “starcraft hellbat drop” and youll see the myriad of articles/build orders about them.

You once again prove that you know how to read the instruction manual - congratulations.

We all know what takes what kind of damage.

The fact that youre missing is that archons are garbage at breaking a properly executed mech comp. 5 Tanks and a group of hellbats making a push out onto the map is not a properly executed mech comp.

Right. Everything I said is literally backed up by replays of pro games and yet I’m the one who’s clueless.

What can I expect from the guy who thinks zealots can beat concussive shell marauders without charge

1 Like
26

Archons are a major factor in TvP Mech because they soak so much damage and completely vaporize your hellbats which are being used to protect your tanks and cyclones.

Removing the Bio tag off the hellbat buffs TvP Mech without changing the power of TvT or TvZ Mech.

The lack of game time both playing as Terran and doing TvP Mech is really showing the more you dig your grave.

They can with the right speed upgrade movement speed. Since Zealots would always be able to chase down Bio or stay very close to them.

27

Which is why you never push out onto the map with some tanks and hellbats.

If you want to play Tank heavy mech then you must turtle before moving out. When you finally move out archons will evaporate before touching your tank line because of the better scalability of mech and the access to Thor/BC/ghost.

The point being is that archons are a non factor against properly played tank mech, since properly played tank mech = turtling until you have that devastating army and archon-heavy comps cannot break terran turtling.

Not in a turtle situation.

Re-read what I wrote. Youre not supposed to move out onto the map and fight with tanks, hellbats, and landed vikings against a protoss lol

1 Like
28

All of which are from the HOTS era when they were OP and you could carry 4 in a medivac.

29

They are not all from the HOTS era.

And nice job responding to one part of my post while ignoring everything I posted that demolishes your nonsensical claims

1 Like
30

Drop the act and allow everyone to see your profile. It’s very boring watching you flop around like a fish out of water.

You came into this thread trying to act like you have vast knowledge about Terran and TvP Mech when you barely have a clue and it showed when you decided to come into this thread and argue against removing the Hellbat bio-tag which is a huge reason why TvP Mech is not as viable as it could be.

31

Stop trying to deflect from the fact that your arguments are constantly getting destroyed.

Here is gumiho doing hellbat drop again

Just take the L and move on. Nothing wrong about being clueless about a video game.

2 Likes
32

You are the one who is getting leveled by me and TerranicII.

We know how TvP Mech plays, we know the compositions Terran goes and why they go.

Hellbat drops would still be powerful without the bio-tag on them. Also most of the time in actual games the hellbat drops get killed before they drop or they get focused fired down or the enemy moves away from the hellbats. That is why the Hellbat drop is so rarely done.

33

I gave you 5 or 6 games of PvT mech at the absolute highest level and they all support what I’m saying.

Yet you completely ignore it (we all know your aversion to actual high level SC2 play) and instead try to troll me by saying I’m an alt.

you got rekt in this debate as usual. just accept it lol

Unless youre gonna tell me that Maru, Stats, Gumiho, and Zest don’t know what theyre doing either.

2 Likes
34

LMAO

focus firing down medivacs instead of a terran mech army with insane DPS is a testament to how effective hellbat drops are - they wouldnt take priority over the scary mech army if they wouldnt.

“moving away from hellbats”

right while eating the insane damage output of the superior ranged mech army

you are absolutely clueless

1 Like
35

You gave me nothing. A handful of TvP Mech games vs the thousands of TvP Bio games. Have you ever wondered why that is?.

Hellbats having a bio tag is a big factor stopping TvP Mech viability.

Zest and Stats are Protoss players that rarely play against Mech.

Hellbat drops usually happen away from the Terran Mech army.

That would be your title.

36

On most maps you have to guard multiple chokepoints just to hold 3-bases, which is where you start to have problems, constantly repositioning mines and Tanks to counter whichever direction the opponent is coming from; or splitting them to hold multiple chokepoints.

This does come down to the map though.

37

Your ability to draw proper conclusions is severely lacking.

Based on everything we went over, there is absolutely ZERO evidence that hellbats’ Bio tag is a big factor stopping TvP mech viability.

On the other hand, when we see the greatest minds in SC2 actually play PvT mech, we see that Archons are virtually a complete non-factor in the protoss strategy against mech, which, in case I have to spell it out for you, invalidates your hellbat argument since it’s based on the premise that Archons are some kind of Terran Mech Killer

basically, your conclusion is supported only on your delusion and terrible understanding of the game, not actual facts (and the facts actually support what I’m saying)

LMAOO

are you actually trying to say that Zest and Stats have an inferior understanding of how to play against mech than you and and the rest of the diamond Terran players in this topic?

In harassment situations, yes. During mech pushes, no.

1 Like
38

I am not saying that turtle tank mech vs protoss is a strong effective strategy in general. The problems you noted have nothing to do with Archons

I am highlighting the fact that Archons are not the reason that Protoss can dominate turtle tank mech styles.

Archons are a essentially non-factor against mech.

1 Like
39

Most of the Protoss compositions that I’ve seen do well against mech do include a number of Archons, so they are a factor; just not the only one.

It would be disingenuous to pretend that they are the only problem.

1 Like
40

What made you come into this thread like you have?. It doesn’t suit your TvZ narrative and act.

Was it the “serious rose tinted glasses” comment?. I think it was wasn’t it?.

It’s already been explained why the Bio tag on Hellbats is greatly hurting TvP Mech viability.

The most common comp against Mech is Chargelot-Archon-Immortal. Archons destroying hellbats is a major factor since that means that the Zealots, immortals and archons can get right on the tanks and cyclones.

Hellbats have a bio tag.

Archons do a bonus vs bio

Removing the bio tag off hellbats makes them survive longer against Archons which helps make TvP Mech viable.

It’s that simple.

Yes during mech pushes, no one hellbat harasses.

Most Protoss at M-GM level rarely play against a Mech terran, it’s all bio.

They are a huge factor against Mech because they wipe out the Hellbats that are holding back the zealots and immortals.