Everyone knows terran can turtle the best in the game, from stupid PFs, and Libs, to Wms, and siege tanks.
That’s not even including how stupid their mech is. Thors are the main problem. They are way too tanky and strong. Blizzard went the LoL route and made a tanky strong unit. Not sure what was wrong with the goliath from SC1.
We all know its not fun to play against mech.
On top of all of that, lurkers are useless in this game. SC2’s version of dark swarm takes a long time to get and its expensive to tech to. It’s like blizzard wants terran to be invincible with mech.
Mech in zvt and pvt are both not fun to play against.
Not sure how PFs even made it out of the beta version of WoL. It should of only stayed in the campaign.
Terran can harass all they want but protoss or zerg can’t because of PFs.
Mutas are useless because of super thors and libs and wms.
Lurkers are useless cause of thors, tanks, and libs.
Terran was bad enough in BW with turtling and blizzard made it 10x worse in sc2.
Like everything terran has makes turtling with them too strong.
Building armor upgrade should not be in the game either.
blizzard focused way too much on fixing bio that they neglected the terran turtle ability problem. Dont think they ever looked at the other units, oh wait, they buffed tanks HP when in siege mode, what a joke.
So terran gets a super tank and a super thor. Along with OP zoning with libs.
I’ve always stated that Terran is OP as F*(& and it’s why I switched to them. I’ve been playing Protoss since SC1 and just can’t seem to do sh*t against them (and even worse against Zerg) at higher levels.
Now that I play Terran I have so much at my disposal and if I lose it’s cause I was too slow on making certain units.
I can see why Terran is so OP though cause they need to be since Zerg are worse in my opinion.
What really does it though is the Eco of the races. With Protoss I could just not keep up an army and an Eco to compete against the mass mule money cheat code or Zergs ability to take 2-3 exps at the start of the game AND have mass lings which DOMINATE anything you can throw at them with queens.
The game is imbalanced as F*&* so either play an imbalanced race or stop complaining cause they are NOT going to fix it.
If you were complaining some time when mech was actually broken (raven era for example), I would be on board with this complaint. However, it’s been proven many times that Zerg and Protoss have the tools to beat mech. It’s hard (as it should be to maintain its spot as a valid playstyle), but not impossible by any means. It is definitely not fun to play against, but I am personally not a fan of deleting playstyles. They may treat Protoss like in this game, but that doesn’t mean other races should experience the same treatment. Mech is powerful, but it is slow, and a good player knows how to take advantage of that. That’s why you don’t see mech being played as much nowadays. Some players actually complain that mech is weak - I say that’s just whining because Terran mech players can no longer drag out the game to 1 hour+.
Terran is definitely the best race for turtling, but they lack in other areas. Both zerg and protoss have better counterattack options. If thors are out on the map, they are way to slow to respond to a ling/bane or zealot run-by. Siege tanks are useless as soon as brood lords, vipers, swarm hosts, carriers, or tempests come out. Vikings counter brood lords, but are useless if corruptors are escorting (which they always are). Corruptors are OP as hell and render skyterran useless. Thors can counter brood lords, but if they are out on the map and brood lords fly to the main–goodnight.
Mech is very powerful, but it’s hard to play well because of how much gas you need to support it and how slow it is. You need 4 bases to sustain it, and it’s hard to appropriately turtle and protect all 4 bases. The balance in this game is far from perfect, but nothing about Terran doesn’t have an equally effective counter from both the other races. Unless, of course, you’re Maru.
agree with you in part.
Terran has good counter attack options, but if you are playing “mech only” they are limited.
ling/ bane/zealot are more painful in base, but hellion are good for harass (at least TvZ).
Bl are the slowest unit… only off creep queen is slower-> that’s why the example is not quite as strong.
Ok let’s brake it down larva 3 every 30 secs max 15 per hatch.
Thors problem is 10 range vs air, it’s design was counter mutas but range made counter brood lords.
Talk about slow unit.
Corrupters are good but most Terran forget about liberators mass can defeat corrupters. Mix liberators with bc you got army Zerg has throw 10 times that to even stop first wave. Once you mass 10 bc you hyper jump Zerg base and auto win.
To fix Thor make it siege tank speed.
Reduces its air range to 7 and cut its ground damage in half. (The last part might be extreme but it’s does 30 x 2 at fire rate .91
That’s 65 dps at range 7)
No unit outside ultra at range 1 has dps 56.
Archons, tanks, lurkers has dps under 20 yet Thor has 3 times that.
Evening cutting damage in half it still have higher dps then most units.
I’m not a mech player and really have very little stake in this argument. However this statement:
is laughable and straight up wrong because of how legitimately bad Liberator AA is. They have a slow firing, two missile attack, meaning that their attacks against Corruptors specifically have -4 damage (2 points for each missile. This means that at +3 against +3 armour, liberators are doing (8x2)-(5x2) damage - in other words, they’re doing 6 damage per attack on corruptors assuming both have maximum upgrades. Corruptors have 200 HP. you need 34 liberators to 1 shot corruptors in a small area. that’s 102 supply worth of liberators. Liberators are NOT a feasible counter to Corruptors. In fact, corruptors are THE hardest counters in the game to liberators not including the BC and Static defense.
In fact, the only thing the liberator’s AA is good for killing is Overlords (don’t fight back), Observers (same), un-upgraded Phoenix, Mutas and Vikings - the last three being purely off the fact that none of them have any base armour at all. The Muta has less range than Liberators, so to fight they have to actively get in range, un-upgraded Phoenixes have the same range so will take at least one hit from them, and Vikings are both slower than Liberators and made of cardboard (rather than paper).
In the video the corruptors are engaging from a wider arc than can be typically done in pro games, and liberators beat them with some pretty basic stack and kite micro, and while the zerg can split his corruptors he still has to kite towards the liberators, which make the corruptors naturally stack up. Otoh the terran is usually kiting back and his stacking of liberators is beneficial here because the zerg has no splash of his own. Corruptors are not really a counter to mass liberators because their bonus is vs massive not armoured, that role for zerg would fall to the viper. That is why I did not include pb, as the argument is whether corruptors counter liberators, else I can also include aam/emp for the terran side.
Like you know this, when a unit that can stack is massed it concentrates all the fire in a small area and when that unit has splash it takes it to a whole nother level, even if individually their attacks are rather pitiful. The muta is a great example that’s able to be massed faster due to zerg’s production and is ever-present in pro play,
yet only has pseudo-splash.
For reference, the liberator’s splash radius is 1.5 compared to the thor’s 0.5 or mine’s 1.75. According to liquipedia it out dps’ vikings vs armoured units so long as their splash hits at least 3 units, which is generally pretty easy to do from what I’ve seen lategame. Their splash is also often useful for softening up corruptors to get 1-shot by snipe.
Yes when liberators are in low numbers their aa is pretty dog, but en mass with attack upgrades, part of a ghost mech comp it becomes very hard for zerg to deal with. I think even toss has trouble dealing with mass libs lategame and they actually have units that deal bonus do it. And all this isn’t even taking aam into account.
This isn’t even directed to you in particular, but generally it seems terrans are rather spoiled with their aa options, between single target burst like yamato and snipe, high dps like marine, bc, auto-turret, and cyclone, splash like thor, liberator, and mine, long range like viking, yamato, thor, and snipe there’s almost an overwhelming amount of versatility in their options that makes me so envious as a zerg where I’m basically forced to blind mass queens early, then I get to choose between glass cannon, mobile harass, or generic anti-massive.
That’s why I think ravagers have only been increasing in popularity, because they are so versatile, and their splash isn’t even a guaranteed hit! Like terran has 3 stacking aa splash options, 2 of them from auto-attacks, and all of them are more guaranteed to hit than biles. I might not explore all the options either if I had do deal with their production but damned if I’ll let terrans downplay the strength of liberator splash.
Thors have never done a particularly good job at countering Mutalisks unless the opponent purposefully clumps the Mutalisks and flies near them. Countering Mutalisks specifically is also far too limited a role to justify making slow, massive 300/200/6 units.
Thors were reworked to be able to counter or compete with massive-air to give them more flexibility. This also helps compensate for problems that Vikings have countering massive air units in practice.
That test involved 60 Corruptors against 40 Liberators, which is laughably unrealistic. A liberator swarm that high can one-shot clumps of Corruptors (it takes 34 Liberators to do so).
Liberator counts rarely reach that high, and the opponent should always start including splash of their own (caster or not) whenever fighting such a large fleet.
Against Corruptors, Liberators typically need to hit an average of 3.6 units to match the DPS of Vikings, assuming equal upgrades and no spells.
Even so, the fact that the Viking’s DPS is concentrated on picking off individual units usually leads to better performance until the unit counts on both sides are significantly larger. This is because dead units don’t shoot, the Vikings lower the opposing army’s DPS at a faster rate than the Liberators do.
Mech players are unlikely to put 120 supply in Liberators. Much of their supply will be divided among other units (Hellions/Hellbats and Tanks and/or Thors etc…).
Protoss has more trouble dealing with Liberators than Zerg does. That is mostly because of the Liberator’s ground attack rather than the air attack, but at ridiculously high Liberator counts Protoss air units are also more vulnerable to Liberator splash than Corruptors are.
Protoss ground units are always at least 2 supply and relatively durable, so the Liberators’ ground attacks don’t waste as much DPS against them as they do against Marines, Hydralisks, Zerglings, Banelings, etc. In order for Protoss ground units to be efficient against Liberators, they need to exploit gaps in the Liberators’ targeting fields or prevent the Liberators from setting up those fields at all.
As for Protoss air units:
→ Phoenixes have no armor, so they take 66.67% more damage than Corruptors from each missile.
→ Carrier Interceptors are likely to get picked off against high Liberator counts.
→ Void Rays also have no armor (66.67% more damage), but they can deal enough DPS to compensate until the Liberator count is very large. The main problems with Void Rays against splash units are that their beam attack gives them a tendency to stack up much more than other air units and they seem to spread out more slowly.
Tempests are probably the best aerial answer Protoss has to Liberators because they can pick off Liberators in defender mode; and rely on ground units (Archons, High Templar, Stalkers, etc) to help deal with the Liberators that come closer to attack in fighter mode.
I mean so is zerg making 60 corruptors, but the point of my testing in these supplies is to show more or less max supply while accounting for 80ish workers. Even so, in a real game the terran is more likely to be able to kite back into thors/missile turrets/snipe and have more available army supply with mules and no queens.
Nobody is claiming it’s common, in fact that is a given in my post.
We are not talking about what you should do against this, but how a unit interaction functions.
Idk about that, the calculation in this page suggests otherwise and seems correct
Scroll down for the table comparing liberator to viking dps, 7.8(+1.4) vs 19.6(+2.8) vs armoured, so it would be 12 vs 28 on 3-3.
2.5 units at 0-0, 2.33 at 3-3, I don’t see where the 4.2 is coming from.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t compliment your liberators with vikings, in fact liberators work well in that regard as they’re a fair bit tankier and faster.
Zerg players are unlikely to put 120 supply into corruptors, and if neither player is massing pure then we should assume the opposite which is a perfect composition, in which case we’re back to square one in zerg being forced to play into ghosts.
I don’t know enough about protoss to comment definitively on the matter but yea I would assume the race that sends out 80 little flying units that can’t be controlled would have a little more trouble with liberator splash.
Corruptors have 2 base armor. Liberators only deal a combined total of 6 damage to them with both missiles, Vikings deal a combined 24.
The base attack cooldowns (using editor values) for Liberators and Vikings are 1.8 seconds and 2.0 seconds respectively, so that’s 3.333 base DPS for Liberators and 12 DPS for Vikings—and at this point I should correct my earlier 4.2 number, it is actually 3.6 splash targets to match Viking DPS. If the Zerg player doesn’t neglect armor upgrades, then the Liberators won’t perform better than that.
If you want the LOTV values on faster speed, just multiply the DPS numbers I gave by 1.4 and divide the attack cooldowns by 1.4. All of the numbers I listed were based on the editor values (which is normal speed).
Against any general category you ALWAYS have to take the base armor of each unit into account for an accurate comparison. You can’t just hand-waive away that value by talking about numbers in a vacuum. My understanding is that this discussion was mostly about TvZ, Liberators, & Corruptors.