No I mean aa as in anti-air, quit editing other people’s posts if you don’t know anything about the game @mod.
Realistic 10 liberators 4 bc 44 pop vs 30 corrupters Terran wins then Terran can teleport 4 bc and destroy spire before Zerg can build counter.
Going back to Thors make them faster reduce their rang AA to 7. Cut their dps in half to ground.
give zerg dark swarm or give blinding cloud to the infestor, then not only can zerg compete against mech, they can also build lurkers against bio.
a big reason why lurkers arent very useful against bio is because they can just stim out of blinding cloud.
if dark swarm is ever added back to the game, make it so when units are under it they also cannot be attacked by libs, thats another unit why zerg cant use lurkers vs terran.
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What if combine fg and blinding cloud as one
on the other hand, zerg builds at least ~6-8 mutas 600/600/12 | 800/800/16 so 300/200/6 doesn’t sound so bad.
and you can already see that terran likes to add 1-3 thor to his army vs muta.
Yea he neglects to mention thors are still good vs nearly every zerg unit, see here:
https://youtu.be/_o_sriu_08o
and here
https://youtu.be/_o_sriu_08o
Moreover 1-2 often get made for bio specifically because it forces the mutas to stop stacking when they attack which is a huge hindrance to the micro the zerg is incentivized to do.
When you have 8 marines in your base going around trying to catch my mutas I can pick that off no problem, maybe not all at once but I can stack and pick them off 1 by 1, but you add a thor to the mix and I am getting punished hard every time I stack, so if I want to continue harassing I must magic box, but magic boxxing vs stimmed marines, especially with a thor beside them to pull aggro will almost always be a bad trade for the zerg. This is compounded by the fact that the thor’s immobility is circumvented by medivac boosting it from the main to the third, etc, and can even be used to save it from certain death.
Contrast to the mine where they often get picked off for free, or the zerg simply eats the 1-muta loss to keep harassing, if the zerg tries to 1-shot a thor… well by the time he’s able to do that what’s stopping the terran from getting a 2nd one? Not to mention repair…
But all this is for the interaction of thor vs muta specifically, not even taking account their role in tanking banes.
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No, it is bad.
One Thor isn’t going to do much against Mutalisks, and a few Thors can easily be mitigated/defeated by magic-boxing.
Since Thors are too slow to react to Mutalisk harassment in the first place, Terran would need multiple Thors at different points for them to be an effective counter to Mutalisk harassment; or the Zerg player would need to choose to suicide Mutalisk clumps against the Thors.
Considering those problems, Thors would not be worth making in TvZ if they were “useless” against other air units. There are also two other match-ups to consider where Thors wouldn’t have much anti-air use without HIP.
i just mean that the costs are relatively the same. it’s not like zerg pays 200/200 and has 8 mutas.
Thor is so interesting because they have a lot of range and muta a relatively short.
That means you fly between towers/ bio/ mine around and get constant damage from Thor and you can’t kill him fast.
True, but those Thors have to cover several bases, and any single Thor is just going to get ignored or killed, so the costs add up.
The broader point that I’ve been trying to get at though, is that Javelin Missiles is generally not versatile enough to be the Thor’s only source of anti-air. In other match-ups it is usually useless, and its usefulness in TvZ is mostly limited to Mutalisks or clumped Locusts–Although Locusts are usually somewhat spread because of the size of the Swarm Hosts that spawn them, so the HIP attack may actually still be killing Locusts.
If Thors had to be limited to only one anti-air attack or the other, it would be better if Javelin Missiles were removed in favor of the HIP/punisher cannons.
Which would honestly be disasterous for mech in general because then they don’t really have much of a way of dealing with light air other than relying entirely on mine splash. Liberators are essentially useless when it comes to air battles.
I’m not at all convinced of that.
HIP has better single-target DPS than Javelin Missiles against everything, and it doesn’t waste shots, so it is useful to have Thors in HIP mode for general anti-air.
Javelin Missiles “can” get more damage in when light air units are very clumped, but with a 0.5 radius it doesn’t take much to mitigate that.
Light air units also tend to either lack a ground attack or otherwise be weak (squishy or low-damage) in direct engagements; which is enough for Thors to deal with them.
I mean, it’s better for Thors to have access to both attacks, but if the Thor could only have one the HIP is better. Large groups of light air can be handled with Widow Mines & Turrets or Widow Mines + Thors/Vikings in the attack group.
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no one trusts Blizzard to handle SC2, you should be cheering for frost giant studios. Screw Blizzard
You had different unit resource values set. You had MORE VALUE IN THORS than the Zerg had in ROACHES, lol. Completely ignoring the stronger economy, far earlier timings, and vastly superior production, this is just intellectual dishonesty at it’s worst.
I always knew you were a Zerg whiner, man, but even you are above garbage like this.
Oh so you mean zerg has to play to not let the terran get there? What was it that got broodlord infestor nerfed again?
If none of those units work at max army comp then they are not effective counters, but a ‘don’t let them get there’ response.
I’ve said this over and over again but tearrans like you will pretend they never saw it, the reason mech is not viable at the pro level is because the zerg will not let the terran get there, not because their lategame army is weaker. Look at cure vs serral g1 at kob, bunny vs ragnarok g3 or dark vs maru g1 this gsl and tell me what zerg can do once terran reaches their ghost mech comp.
The claim I made is not “do zergs have stronger production or eco” than terran, but “thors are good vs every zerg unit”. Nevertheless terran does have stronger eco than zerg lategame, that’s why bunny was able to recover from a 70 supply deficit at 16 workers g2 and maru beat dark g1 after going down to 11 workers, because your oc’s scattered around the map provide free 0 supply workers at anywhere on the map.
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The fact that Fungal was instant cast, unavoidable and did bonus damage to armoured units and guaranteed that whatever you hit would die because of chain fungals, infested terrans were undoubtedly the most broken thing in the game and literally meant you could never, ever trade favourably because you were trading units that cost minerals and gas, for units that cost only energy every time you engaged, and the fact that both infested terrans and broodlings made unit pathing for dealing with infestors, broodlords and corruptors literally impossible.
No. Mech isn’t used at pro level very often because it’s extremely brittle in the early game, provides little capability for damage on the opposition, and additionally has a ton of hard-counters at pretty much all stages of the game - particularly from zerg (Viper blinding-cloud/abduct, infestor neural parasite, ravager biles for early game etc).
I’m not saying its impossible to play, but it IS very, very difficult. The late-game mech army is strong, but it’s also something you as a zerg can deal with as we have seen frequently in the past.
Importantly, to your point of Maru’s utilization of it in his matches vs Dark, Maru actively transitions into mech, which is a long, arduous, and extremely expensive process in itself, rather than playing mech from the word go, and something that I haven’t seen any other Terran manage to pull off because it’s so difficult to do.
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That’s the entire POINT of going Roaches vs Mech? If you want to go late game, do something else, but if you want to trade cost inefficiently and out grow Terran, that’s when you go Roaches.
You still have a strong late game, just not an OP late game. Thor has plenty of counters. Lurkers, Large numbers of broods, Neural parasite, Abduct.
Zerg players when they aren’t winning 60+% of the tournaments:
REEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
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Instant cast was removed in hots beta and armoured damage in wings long before broodlord infestor became meta. Infested terrans were far from broken in hots, yet you are using their nerfs before that time to justify their removal in lotv? What was it bourne said about me, something about intellectual dishonesty? But it’s ok you can keep believing your diamond league propaganda idgaf.
ghost.
Yes that’s why I said zerg will kill mech before they can reach late, obviously that would necessitate a transition from bio or immense damage early game.
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Notice how I used every zerg unit, and the thor won every one except vs 120 supply lurker, and that was pretty close for a supposed ‘counter’.
Such a strong lategame that every zerg wants to avoid it XD.
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I thought you were talking about Wings of Liberty BL-infestor, which was why I listed each of those things, not BL-Infestor afterwards, which hasn’t ever really been an issue since that point in time, with the exception of the one instance where the Broodlord was bugged and getting excessive amounts of additional range well beyond what they were originally supposed to.
The infestor specifically also had one other additional issue, when they brought back the infested terran after nerfing it to the ground, and stupidly made them even stronger than they were in their original incarnation before they were removed completely.
Micro. Control. The game becomes a game of control and micro at that point - a dance keeping your spell-caster safe while the ghost tries to get EMPs/snips off on them. The one with the better control wins.
I mention it specifically because you almost never see mech openings anymore because of how bad they actually are
*Against maru specifically.
Against pretty much anyone else with the possible exception of Clem, Zerg players are almost always happy to go lategame because 99.999% of terrans aren’t capable of successfully making that transition without dying or being a vastly superior player. The only time most Zerg players actively avoid that late-game is if they’re stylistically disinclined towards it - players like Rattata or No-regret come to mind.
That doesn’t mean you don’t poke and prod and harass and pull them apart; that’s actively a part of killing a late-game army. Mobility is super important against it.
Unless you drastically outnumber Thors, this isn’t a counter because Thors are directly designed to counter those late-game massive air units.
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That ‘bug’ has been in the game since wol and has been a micro trick akin to carrier leash, used often in their interaction vs thors, yet only 1 was removed. It’s disgusting the revisionism this community will make to justify nerfs done to change the tournament winner.
Zerg players are happy to go lategame vs BIO, not mech, that’s why they all-in vs mech.